Low dKH & Ca, Normal Mg - Can't keep softies alive

[neverrain]

I hope this is the right place to post this, as I have several questions.

 

I'm not really sure where to start with this, but I have been meaning to make this post for a couple weeks (unfortunately, I was out of town).

 

I just tested my water after doing a water change yesterday AND switching to Reef Crystals from Red Sea Coral Pro. Tests were done with a Red Sea Pro kit (by far the nicest kit I've ever used)

 

sg = 1.024 (dialing in the reef crystals amounts)

Mg = 1360

dKH = 6.7

Ca = 340

 

All other parameters are nil, and have been for months, so I kind of stopped testing them. I did a 3 gallon change yesterday, and I'm considering doing a bigger change tomorrow to try and get some of these levels back on track. My normal water change schedule is Wed & Sun @ 2g per change.

 

Current Corals:

 

Birdsnest (seems to be growing nicely)

Misc Zoas (seem happy)

Duncan (I think it's dying)

Acan (added yesterday - freshly fragged by LFS 3 days ago)

 

I've also lost 2 Blastos after ~2-3 weeks in the tank, both captive grown from Live Aquaria.

 

These are kept under a Maxspect Razor 16k in a Nuvo 16.

 

If I can find my camera cable I'll upload some pictures of the Duncan, but I haven't seen it expanded since a few days after it went into the tank, despite it trying to grow 2 new heads. I have moved it to a shaded spot in the tank as out of direct flow as it can be.

 

So I guess my main question is what my first step in bringing up my dKH and Ca levels should be. I can run by the LFS after work tomorrow and pick up additives if needed. Should I do a large water change tonight?

 

I also feel like I can't dial in my light properly. The Razor is about 14in off the water and 25 inches from the sandbed. The only coral not currently on the sandbed is the birdsnest, which is near the top of the rockwork (maybe 4-5in from the surface). Any ideas on proper settings for the light? I have ranged it at peak from A:15 B:25 to A:60 B:75 and the Duncan has made no real change until recently where he feels harder to the touch and is now forming a bowl shape. I attempted to feed it today and it didn't even make an effort. The Birdsnest and Zoas are all fine.

 

Where should I begin?

[Admonition]

If your salt mix isn't giving you the dKH and calc levels you want, you can always try dosing. I've used BRS' two part with positive results.

[Dramad1]

I would raise the sg to 1.025

Mag is fine

Raise alk to around 7.6dkh -8dkh

Raise ca to about 420ish

There are several ways to do this, wc, 2 part, kalk, ca reactor.

I find using 2 part is easiest but can become expensive buying the premixed once your reef starts soaking it all up.

If you do not have any 2 part on hand I would do a water change then test an hour or so later.

When I dose my 2 part, if needed, I dose ca in the morning if possible and alk at night. If I forget to dose the ca in morning or just to busy then I dose the ca at night as well usually 45min - an hour after the alk.

I would do a wc, re test my parameters. Then test everyday for a week at the same time everyday to try to get an idea of ca and alk consumption. Then find out how much you need to dose daily to keep your parameters where you want them. Constant swings in alk can affect your ph as well or dosing to much at once can cause ph swings which in turn piss corals off.

Here is a link to a reef dosing calculator for 2 part and can help you figure out how much you may need to dose. What ever it tells you, id start with half and re test, then adjust and go from there. Also make sure you choose the correct drop down options for brand 2 part as well as gallon/l of water.

http://reef.diesyst.com/cf/chemcalccf.html

hope this helps

[KP_Reef_Tank]

Are you running any kind of media reactors?

[neverrain]

I am not running any media reactors.

 

I looked at the 2 post and it's kinda pricey. Are separate additives available?

 

I'll do the water change tomorrow to start and record each day and check consumption. I'm worried most about saving this coral too.

[Oceanus]

If the duncan isn't showing signs of tissue recession, I wouldn't worry too much about it. My duncan goes into occasional periods of being closed and always emerges healthy.

 

If your nutrients are too low, which could be a possibility, then you can run into trouble with softies. Ultra low nutrient systems generally aren't the greatest for softies.

 

Test your freshly mixed SW. You could have low Alk and Ca to start with in your WC water, and this would contribute to chronic low levels.

[Dramad1]

You can also look into dry 2 part and mixing yourself. Much cheaper than the pre mix

 

You can also look into dry 2 part and mixing yourself. Much cheaper than the pre mix

[Steve973]

Natural salt water is 1.026, so you could make gradual adjustments up to that number, and the stats you mentioned should go up a bit. In my nuvo 16, my water changes are just a little less than five gallons per week.

[neverrain]

If the duncan isn't showing signs of tissue recession, I wouldn't worry too much about it. My duncan goes into occasional periods of being closed and always emerges healthy.

 

If your nutrients are too low, which could be a possibility, then you can run into trouble with softies. Ultra low nutrient systems generally aren't the greatest for softies.

 

Test your freshly mixed SW. You could have low Alk and Ca to start with in your WC water, and this would contribute to chronic low levels.

 

I'm mixing up 4 gallons right now. Gonna let it go over night. I was using Red Sea Coral Pro and I've read stories about the end of the bucket losing it's punch in terms of minerals. I wonder if this is what happened here.

 

The Duncan is looking less pissy right now. I lowered the lights about 20% and moved it into the shade of a rock and it has changed from a bowl to it's "normal" condensed state.

 

You can also look into dry 2 part and mixing yourself. Much cheaper than the pre mix

 

You can also look into dry 2 part and mixing yourself. Much cheaper than the pre mix

 

You referring to this? http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-2-part-calcium-alkalinity-kit-pre-portioned-3.html

 

Natural salt water is 1.026, so you could make gradual adjustments up to that number, and the stats you mentioned should go up a bit. In my nuvo 16, my water changes are just a little less than five gallons per week.

 

4-5 gallons per week is about what I am doing too, depending on how strict I am able to stay on my change schedule. I don't supposed you are using a Razor for lighting too?

[Steve973]

My light is a Nano Box Duo, so I think that it is in the same ballpark as your Razor. I was considering a Razor when Dave convinced me of his product and of his dedication to customer service. LEDs are awesome, aren't they? I have had halides on my previous tank back in ~2006, and I like these so much better, especially with the configurability that you can get from the various controllers.

 

I was thinking about your water change schedule. I perform the entire 5 gallon change at once, but I don't think that would necessarily have a bigger impact on calcium and alkalinity. It would be better at exporting nutrients in the water column, but your method should provide better stability.

 

From your description, it doesn't sound like your stock list should be that demanding on your calcium and alkalinity. It seems like your easiest and cheapest solution right now might be to perform 2 gallon water changes every other day, and see if that brings your levels up to your satisfaction. After things are better, then you can begin to monitor what is being used up and at what rate.

 

You could also try to assist the pH of your tank in a couple of ways. InTank (mediabaskets.com) have some great replacement media baskets and a refugium that will fit very well in the back chambers of your tank, provided that you don't have the old version of the Nuvo 16. While it will provide baskets for the outermost chambers where you can run chemipure elite (supposedly helps maintain pH) and purigen, they have a mini refugium basket where you can have chaeto and run your lights on the opposite schedule of your Razor. While running these, you can get the IM Desktop Ghost skimmer and provide more oxygen, which will also help with pH. My media baskets and skimmer will be arriving today, and I can follow up here and let you know my impressions when I install them.

 

Personally, I would avoid dosing if you don't have to dose. I'd try to employ the simplest and most natural solutions until you've exhausted them and find that they don't work for you. Sometimes you can do more harm than good when you are chasing numbers with some of the more aggressive methods, especially if you haven't come to a conclusive diagnosis about what's going on. But I'm not an expert and that's just my opinion. Keep us posted!

[Steve973]

The Duncan is looking less pissy right now. I lowered the lights about 20% and moved it into the shade of a rock and it has changed from a bowl to it's "normal" condensed state.

That's interesting and this brings a question to mind: how long have you had the Razor over your tank? Did the Duncan's irritation start shortly after you began using your Razor? If that's the case, or if the Duncan itself is new, then maybe it has less to do with these levels, and more to do with the stress of more light than it was accustomed to. If you have that Razor cranked up to its maximum, it will probably be too much for it.

[atrox]

Reef crystals gives me theses readings consistently

 

Ca 450-480

Dkh 8.3

Mag 1440-1460

 

As others have stated you don't want to raise any level in large increments, so just normal water changes should get you in high levels.

 

Fwiw I have a heavily stocked system with mostly lps and I do not dose I just do water changes with RC salt.

[Veng]

Corals pull liquid stone (Calcium & Carbonate) from the water column when they grow. I know, that whole conservation of mass thing we were taught in school is seriously annoying! As a result, the dKH (measure of Carbonate) and Calcium drop. You need some method for adding Calcium and Carbonate back into the water. There are 3 main methods used, dosing (direct addition), water changes (which is really a form of diluted dosing), and calcium reactor (fancy equipment that dissolves calcium carbonate and adds the liquid to the tank). Generally speaking, the up front costs are in high to low, calcium reactor, dosing, water changes. The "runnning" costs, are from high to low, water changes, dosing, calcium reactor. As a result, Calcium reactors are much more suited to large to very large reefs, water changes very suited to picos sized tanks, and lightly stocked nanos. Medium to Heavily stocked Nanos the least expensive way is generally dosing.

 

Kalkwasser (limewater) is a saturated solution of calcium carbonate in water, but it's really just dosing into your ATO, and then letting that get pumped into the tank. The down side, is heavily stocked aquariums can pull more calcium carbonate out of the water than can be dissolved in the water that evaporates. If it's separated into two solutions, i.e. 2 part, then much more can be dissolved in much less liquid. If you combine 2 part the calcium carbonate will literally precipitate out.

[Steve973]

His tank isn't loaded with SPS, and it doesn't seem to be overstocked, so I don't really understand why the levels are so low with his water change regimen. I'd try to get more understanding before I did anything beyond water changes.

[neverrain]

You could also try to assist the pH of your tank in a couple of ways. InTank (mediabaskets.com) have some great replacement media baskets and a refugium that will fit very well in the back chambers of your tank, provided that you don't have the old version of the Nuvo 16. While it will provide baskets for the outermost chambers where you can run chemipure elite (supposedly helps maintain pH) and purigen, they have a mini refugium basket where you can have chaeto and run your lights on the opposite schedule of your Razor. While running these, you can get the IM Desktop Ghost skimmer and provide more oxygen, which will also help with pH. My media baskets and skimmer will be arriving today, and I can follow up here and let you know my impressions when I install them.

 

Personally, I would avoid dosing if you don't have to dose. I'd try to employ the simplest and most natural solutions until you've exhausted them and find that they don't work for you. Sometimes you can do more harm than good when you are chasing numbers with some of the more aggressive methods, especially if you haven't come to a conclusive diagnosis about what's going on. But I'm not an expert and that's just my opinion. Keep us posted!

 

I actually neglected to mention that I do use the inTank baskets and refugium. I have Chaeto in there now, so it's helping. I'm also running ChemiPure Elite and Purigen in opposite baskets.

 

I am curious about the Ghost Skimmer. I had a bad experience with the previous IM Skimmer and went through hell returning it (mine never stopped with micro bubbles), so I am curious how the new one is. The only downside is I don't have a 2nd inside chamber available, as mine has a bag of live rock rubble in it to make up volume from the display, though I suppose I could move it to the middle.

 

I'm also not fond of having to dose the tank, especially at the low stock list at the moment. This iteration of the tank is about 8 months old (rebuilt it after losing a couple fish to Ich, no coral), but as I add more coral, I will do what is necessary to maintain it's health, even if that means dosing it. Part of the reason I went with more frequent water changes was to stabalize the levels in the first place. For all I know this could be a result of not doing my midweek water change, though I just recently picked up an Mg/dKH/Ca kit, so I can't say for sure.

 

Reef crystals gives me theses readings consistently

 

Ca 450-480

Dkh 8.3

Mag 1440-1460

 

As others have stated you don't want to raise any level in large increments, so just normal water changes should get you in high levels.

 

Fwiw I have a heavily stocked system with mostly lps and I do not dose I just do water changes with RC salt.

 

RC is a new salt as of my last water change. I'm mixing up 4 gallons now (overnight), so I'll test before it goes in and see where it falls.

 

Corals pull liquid stone (Calcium & Carbonate) from the water column when they grow. I know, that whole conservation of mass thing we were taught in school is seriously annoying! As a result, the dKH (measure of Carbonate) and Calcium drop. You need some method for adding Calcium and Carbonate back into the water. There are 3 main methods used, dosing (direct addition), water changes (which is really a form of diluted dosing), and calcium reactor (fancy equipment that dissolves calcium carbonate and adds the liquid to the tank). Generally speaking, the up front costs are in high to low, calcium reactor, dosing, water changes. The "runnning" costs, are from high to low, water changes, dosing, calcium reactor. As a result, Calcium reactors are much more suited to large to very large reefs, water changes very suited to picos sized tanks, and lightly stocked nanos. Medium to Heavily stocked Nanos the least expensive way is generally dosing.

 

Kalkwasser (limewater) is a saturated solution of calcium carbonate in water, but it's really just dosing into your ATO, and then letting that get pumped into the tank. The down side, is heavily stocked aquariums can pull more calcium carbonate out of the water than can be dissolved in the water that evaporates. If it's separated into two solutions, i.e. 2 part, then much more can be dissolved in much less liquid. If you combine 2 part the calcium carbonate will literally precipitate out.

 

I'm kind of curious about this. If I am dosing into my ATO reserve and it's hotter in the room to the point where water is evaporating faster, wouldn't that dose more than intended into the tank? It got hot enough here this past week where I needed to ice bag my water column to drop the temperature in the tank a few degree (it's been abnormally hot).

 

You are referring to the BRS 2 part mix? Is that how it is dosed? In the ATO reserve?

[Veng]

I'm kind of curious about this. If I am dosing into my ATO reserve and it's hotter in the room to the point where water is evaporating faster, wouldn't that dose more than intended into the tank? It got hot enough here this past week where I needed to ice bag my water column to drop the temperature in the tank a few degree (it's been abnormally hot).

 

You are referring to the BRS 2 part mix? Is that how it is dosed? In the ATO reserve?

Outside of Kalkwasser/limewater, you don't does using the ATO. You add the parts separately to your sump. It can either be done by hand measuring and dispensing, or you can use something called 2 (or more) dosing pumps. Dosing pumps are simply very low flow, very accurate pumps, that are either run off built in controller or through a reef controller like an Apex.

 

2 part simply refers to a system of a calcium and a carbonate additive. Depending on the 2 part, each solution may have additional "trace" elements added to it, rather than simply being calcium and carbonate like the BRS is. There are many different brands of 2 parts, and everyone has their favorite. E.S.V. tends to be quite popular, personally I use Red Sea's Reef foundation, which is actually 3 parts, the third being magnesium. I buy the bulk powder, mix it with RO/DI water, and then use my dosing pumps to added it to the sump.

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/Two_Part_Calcium_Alkalinity_Additives_Supplements-FIADTP-ct.html

[atrox]

Calcium demand in you're tank should be low, I would quit worrying about dosing, kalk, etc. untill you have a significant demand in calcium uptake. Reef crystals will be more than enough.

 

If you're duncan was growing new heads, I would have left it where it was, it was obviously happy enough to start growing them where it was previously. Duncan's can and will stay closed and it's normal for them to do so. I had a single duncan polyp and saw no new heads for months, then after staying closed for about 5 days soon noticed not one but 7 heads all starting to form. The new heads also take time to grow and you can have duncan "pimples" (new head) that stay that way for weeks. Slow down take a breath, let the tank and inhabitants make smooth transitions not abrupt, as they don't take kindly to it.

[neverrain]

Outside of Kalkwasser/limewater, you don't does using the ATO. You add the parts separately to your sump. It can either be done by hand measuring and dispensing, or you can use something called 2 (or more) dosing pumps. Dosing pumps are simply very low flow, very accurate pumps, that are either run off built in controller or through a reef controller like an Apex.

 

2 part simply refers to a system of a calcium and a carbonate additive. Depending on the 2 part, each solution may have additional "trace" elements added to it, rather than simply being calcium and carbonate like the BRS is. There are many different brands of 2 parts, and everyone has their favorite. E.S.V. tends to be quite popular, personally I use Red Sea's Reef foundation, which is actually 3 parts, the third being magnesium. I buy the bulk powder, mix it with RO/DI water, and then use my dosing pumps to added it to the sump.

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/Two_Part_Calcium_Alkalinity_Additives_Supplements-FIADTP-ct.html

 

Good info, thanks for the link.

 

 

Calcium demand in you're tank should be low, I would quit worrying about dosing, kalk, etc. untill you have a significant demand in calcium uptake. Reef crystals will be more than enough.

 

If you're duncan was growing new heads, I would have left it where it was, it was obviously happy enough to start growing them where it was previously. Duncan's can and will stay closed and it's normal for them to do so. I had a single duncan polyp and saw no new heads for months, then after staying closed for about 5 days soon noticed not one but 7 heads all starting to form. The new heads also take time to grow and you can have duncan "pimples" (new head) that stay that way for weeks. Slow down take a breath, let the tank and inhabitants make smooth transitions not abrupt, as they don't take kindly to it.

 

 

 

How come nothing I have read regarding Duncan's has said this. I generally assumed that it being closed up meant it wasn't happy or it was in a bad position. Is it unusual for them to just stay closed for over a month while sprouting new heads?

 

 

That's interesting and this brings a question to mind: how long have you had the Razor over your tank? Did the Duncan's irritation start shortly after you began using your Razor? If that's the case, or if the Duncan itself is new, then maybe it has less to do with these levels, and more to do with the stress of more light than it was accustomed to. If you have that Razor cranked up to its maximum, it will probably be too much for it.

 

 

 

Sorry, I missed this. I had the Razor before buying any coral. The Razor itself has never been higher than 75% on the blue channel and like 60% on the white channel. I've searched a lot of not found very much in terms of settings for this thing over my specific tank.

 

EDIT - I'm debating cutting it to ~40% on blue and waiting a week then slowly building it up like 2% per day or something to "reacclimate them" so to speak. I should probably make a thread in the lighting forum.

[xlzerolx]

For your parameters, have you tested a batch of newly mixed salt water to see what the bucket is giving you? Regardless of what brand, salt parameters will vary from bucket to bucket and also sometimes depending how far into the bucket you are. In my experience Instant Ocean does not have the best quality control when it comes to salt buckets.

 

I have never owned a razor... so I can't really say for sure that this could be the case; but, I really think your razor may be too bright for them. What is your tank depth? "the Razor is about 14in off the water and 25 inches from the sandbed" From this I'm assuming it is at least 12" deep.

From your previous post: "75% on the blue channel and like 60% on the white channel."

That is definitely too bright for a 12" tank. I wouldn't go more than (or at least start with) 40% on each channel with that depth. especially for LPS and softies. start off with a lower light setting and see if things improve then increase it slowwwwly

[neverrain]

For your parameters, have you tested a batch of newly mixed salt water to see what the bucket is giving you? Regardless of what brand, salt parameters will vary from bucket to bucket and also sometimes depending how far into the bucket you are. In my experience Instant Ocean does not have the best quality control when it comes to salt buckets.

 

I have never owned a razor... so I can't really say for sure that this could be the case; but, I really think your razor may be too bright for them. What is your tank depth? "the Razor is about 14in off the water and 25 inches from the sandbed" From this I'm assuming it is at least 12" deep.

From your previous post: "75% on the blue channel and like 60% on the white channel."

That is definitely too bright for a 12" tank. I wouldn't go more than (or at least start with) 40% on each channel with that depth. especially for LPS and softies. start off with a lower light setting and see if things improve then increase it slowwwwly

 

About 11" deep from the top of the water to the top of the sandbed. I'm going to drop the light tonight and leave it for a week or so and slowly ramp it up.

 

And I'm mixing a bucket at home right now. I'll test it tonight before I do the water change to get a baseline for the water. The Red Sea Coral Pro salt was based off weight, where this one is based of measurement, so I am still dialing in 1.025 for the salt too. I bought a smaller bag in the event I didn't like it as well. I guess I am trying this salt out. Plus I have no idea how long the bag was sitting on the shelf itself.

[Steve973]

I received my IM Desktop skimmer, and it seems to be of pretty good quality. I was expecting something obnoxiously loud, but it's pretty quiet. I'm not sure what people expect. As with any new skimmer, there are a lot of microbubbles, and I'm looking forward to seeing them die down. The InTank media baskets are definitely bigger than the stock baskets, and they are much nicer; they don't feel like they'll break if you look at them the wrong way. Overall, it's pretty cool.

[neverrain]

I received my IM Desktop skimmer, and it seems to be of pretty good quality. I was expecting something obnoxiously loud, but it's pretty quiet. I'm not sure what people expect. As with any new skimmer, there are a lot of microbubbles, and I'm looking forward to seeing them die down. The InTank media baskets are definitely bigger than the stock baskets, and they are much nicer; they don't feel like they'll break if you look at them the wrong way. Overall, it's pretty cool.

 

You'll have to update after the bubbles die down, that never happened for me with the original series. I'm more curious about how it fits, etc.

 

Also, I tested the bucket water:

 

sg - 1.025

Mg - 1540

dKH - 12.5

Ca - 475

 

Alkalinity seems high no?

[neverrain]

Just did tests about 5 hours after the water change (couldn't earlier):

 

sg - 1.026 (this may be my fault, I'm cleaning on of my pumps so I can reseal the tubing and I forgot to move my ATO's sensor to compensate)

Mg - 1520

dKH - 9

Ca - 485

PH - 8.1 (API, taken with a grain of salt)

[Steve973]

1.026 is the specific gravity of natural sea water, so it's fine. It looks like you're back on track!

[xlzerolx]

You'll have to update after the bubbles die down, that never happened for me with the original series. I'm more curious about how it fits, etc.

 

Also, I tested the bucket water:

 

sg - 1.025

Mg - 1540

dKH - 12.5

Ca - 475

 

Alkalinity seems high no?

 

Actually all of those parameters are a little high lol. Although MAgnesium levels are difficult to test for from what I've noticed. Alk being high is typical of IO salts. It should be ok though. I like to keep my alk in the 7-8 dkh range.