Jump to content
ReefCleaners.org

E's and T's Pico Sand Bed Thread


tibbsy07

Recommended Posts

Greetings, NR Pico folks!

 

Recently, there has been a lot of discussion here in the pico subforum about sand beds and longevity of a pico in the long term. Evanski and I wanted to make a thread for a civil, thoughtful, and academic-like discussion on the matter. This is a place to openly discuss benefits, pros, cons, etc. of having or not having a sand bed in ones’ pico aquarium. Please refrain from insulting one another and try to be open-minded about what is said here. We’re all trying to do what’s best for our tanks, and what works for one person may not work for another. There is not necessarily a right or wrong answer.

 

Let’s say that long term is anything greater than 1 year. Let’s also define a pico (note: this is for purposes of this thread and this thread alone). Some would argue that anything 3g and below is a pico, and some would say anything below 10g. Let’s just hit the middle area and say that the standard 5.5g tank and under is a pico.

 

The two tanks that started the discussion are El_fab’s and andrewkw’s. Both are (were, in El-Fab’s case) beautiful tanks and fantastic examples of what can be done in a pico reef aquarium. There are many others here in the pico subforum, but none have been going as long as these tanks.

 

El_fab's pico thread (found here for those new the the subforum: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/180570-el-fabs-simple-guide-to-pico-tanks/ ) has been a great resource for pico keepers here for quite some time. El_Fab used a sand bed in his tank and he had his pico for 3 years! That's a really long time to keep a pico. His tank eventually crashed and he took it down. His crash was due to neglect, however. He himself says that he was growing weary of the tank, and his maintenance started to slip. He still doesn’t have a new tank and he has pretty much left the forums. I suggest that his tank is still a pinnacle of a pico, regardless of the crash.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, andrewkw has had his pico for almost 4 years (http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/240866-my-first-pico-dymax-iq3/)!! That's even more of a feat. He started with sand, but removed it as he found it to be a nutrient sink. This tank is still going strong. Another pinnacle pico tank, perhaps even THE epitome of picos now.

 

 

That leaves us with the question of "Is there a better sand set up for picos long term?"

Evanski and I have been talking this over a bunch and we're not totally sure. There are a number of reasons why.

 

1.) Neither tank type - sand or no - has enough tanks long term in the pico thread to actually tell if one works out better. We have 2 tanks that have gone over 3 years - one with sand and one without. An n of 1 for each type is nothing.

 

2.) Picos are often taken down in under a year. There are many reasons. Often it's a crash. But it seems just as often that people become bored with tiny tanks and want to upgrade and get new cool stuff. People also leave the hobby. It’s hard to pin down what works best long term because not many tanks go long term.

 

3.) Both sand beds and bare bottom tanks work well for people on a larger scale - in theory they should both work well for picos, as it's simply scaling the tank down.

 

There are other reasons, but there isn’t a point in writing them all down. Suffice it to say I think that a case can be made for either sand or bare-bottom tanks.

 

 

Let’s discuss each type. For the sake of brevity and in consideration of the size of most picos, DSB and sand bed will be categorized together. I say this because one could differentiate deep sand beds (3” or more, with anoxic zones) and shallow sand beds as they have different functions and processes. I don’t think it’s truly possible to have a deep sand bed with full functionality in such small tanks as picos, so I’m putting them together here. Getting a truly anoxic zone in a pico is unlikely, in my opinion.

 

Sand beds:

Sand beds in a pico look nice (depending on person). The argument for them is that they provide biodiversity, increased surface area for bacteria, and they allow for bio/geochemical processes and reactions that occur in sand beds normally. They provide another means of biofiltration in the pico tank. Many of the bacteria involved in the nitrogen cycle are sensitive to UV light, so the rock, sandbed and rear filtration is where they accumulate to do their work and live. Open water leaves them in the killing fields.

 

The ocean has sand and the sand is a natural means of nutrient deposition and removal. There are very critical reactions that occur in the oxic and anoxic zones of sand. It provides certain critters a home and allows them to escape the light if/when needed. Things like rock flower anemones often use sand to bury their feet, only exposing their mouth/flower.

 

The argument against them is that they also provide a nutrient sink. Most picos do not have skimmers because of space and cost. In addition, most pico keepers do regular weekly water changes of 20% or more – this serves as a major nutrient/nitrate/etc export mechanism. It may very well do more to remove excess from the tank than the sand in the tanks. Because of this, some consider the sand bed to be a place where detritus builds and will eventually break down into harmful products and cause a tank crash.

 

We often think about the sand bed and the nitrogen cycle in very simple terms. We are only concerned about nitrates and phosphates in our cycled tanks, but the reality is that the sand bed and the bio/geochemistry taking place at the molecular, microbial, and macro levels is much more complex. Sulfides, iron, heavy metals, etc.; all of these things could possible end up in the sand bed. That doesn’t mean they are BAD. Some may even help – the point is that the sand bed isn’t just sand, nitrate, phosphates, ammonia, and poop. It is complicated and this should be weighed when making a decision on whether or not to use a sand bed.

 

 

Bare Bottom:

Note: this section will be a bit smaller, not because the argument for a bare-bottom is less valid, but it is less complex.

 

Many people love the look of a bare-bottom tank. The argument for the bare bottom tank is largely that because the sand could be a nutrient sink, it is a hazard waiting to turn into a crash. If the sand is serving little to no purpose in our picos (whereby water changes are doing much of the nutrient export and good husbandry and a decent CUC takes care of the rest), that this is one thing that isn’t needed. Reef tanks are difficult to keep for long periods of time because there are MANY variables to take into account. Reducing the variables involved reduces the likelihood that something can go wrong. In this case, the sand could be a problem so eliminating the possibility of that problem outweighs the small, if any, benefit the sand has. The risk of having the sand outweighs the reward in this case. The detritus builds up along the bottom, but it can be seen and completely removed manually with water changes and vacuuming the glass bottom. You also don’t get any sand storm with a water change or with a new pump.

 

The argument against bare-bottom is basically the opposite of above. Sand is more natural, allowing for more biodiversity, better biological filtration that removes the detritus naturally, and no build up of crud that is visual to the hobbyist. Because the sand is complex and important in the ocean, it must be important to our small tanks. It helps to stabilize the tank because there is more filtration and bio/geochemical reactions taking place to bring the tank to equilibrium. It also gives bacteria more area to reside without being killed by our lights.

 

 

That brings us all up to speed. I have simplified much for the sake of brevity, but it should be enough information for people of all levels to engage in a good discussion about sand or no sand in picos.

 

Evanski and I have picos with sand beds. We are each considering going bare-bottom, but have decided to try some things out first. We’re both scientists, so we like to come up with hypotheses and test them out experimentally. Here’s what we have planned:

 

Evanski’s 2g Fluval thread is here: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/337323-6-months-godzillas-evanski-fluval-2g/ . He’s not had too many problems (barring his nudi issue :P ), but is concerned about nutrient build up in his sand bed. His idea is to basically rinse his whole sand bed. Andrewkw and Brandon429 have both suggested this, doing like a 500% water change. Basically removing the LR and doing 5 100% water changes in a row, letting the water stir up the sand bed and removing all the junk, adding back the rock/livestock and a new batch of water.

 

My 5.5g tank is found here: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/336210-tibbsys-55-maybe-bare-bottom/ . I have some green stuff in my tank in the sand bed, and any time I do a water change, the sand gets stirred, but there is so much detritus built up in the bed. I’ve tried using a gravel vac, but mine is small and removes a ton of sand every time I use it. My idea (thanks to input from Roshan8768) is to use the gravel vac when I do my weekly water changes as I’ve always done, but connect it to a modified water bottle to increase the area of water being pulled in so that the sand can be cleaned, but fall back into the tank and not into my bucket. I have also ordered a more substantial CUC from Reef Cleaners that I hope will help out my detritus issue.

 

There are a number of limitations to these plans. Again, there are not good numbers to actually see if there is anything substantial or statistically significant in our approaches. Also, as of yet, neither of us plans to swap protocols – maybe we will at some point, but not yet. We’re each going to try our respective plans out and see what happens over a period of time. We’re doing the best with what we have and can manage. In the end, we may go bare bottom or we may go sand. Time will tell.

 

E – feel free to add anything. I'll edit and fix anything I screwed up ;)

 

Happy pico-keeping, folks!

Link to comment

Tibbs,

 

I think you captured all of the salient points.

 

I am interested in what I have heard described as old tank syndrome...or problems folks have had after disturbing a sand bed, deep or otherwise.

 

My tank is just at six months, and I am starting to see a little bubble algae here. My sand is hard to stir, as it is about 50% covered by my rock in such a small footprint.

 

Will the sand bed become an issue? I think that is where the smart money will bet. In a Pico, I can afford to literally wash the sand every couple of months, assuring accumulation is purged safely. Kinda hard to see someone doing this for anything but a Pico.

 

Tibbsy is going to vacuum his aggressively, basically doing the same thing. We will compare notes.

 

Scientific? No. However, we would like to at least demonstrate healthy Picos out past one year with sand recovery.

 

Comments/questions welcome.

Link to comment

thank you for this thread, pretty much sold me on going bb in my pico.

 

Thanks for the note...keep an eye on us and see what you think about how we handle sand.

 

Having said that, while I like sand, my IM 16 build is gonna be bare-backed. Gonna be sweet!

Link to comment
  • 4 weeks later...
thesmallerthebetter

I see merits to both approaches.

 

All my picos are filterless, no floss, no mechanical filtration at all. So anything that goes in eventually turns to detritus.

 

In my 0.9g sps tank (might be a year old now, have to check dates) i have only a thin (1/16" ish) cosmetic sand bed. And even that collects a scary amount of detritus.

 

In my 3g prop sytem i have a starboard faux sandbed, and the detritus accumulation on top of it is equally terrifying even with the mp10 set at 50% on reef crest....the difference being that i can remove it easier with a few minutes of siphoning.

 

Both tanks support sps, softies, lps and nps and seem to work well. Only the expected algea grows (diatoms, coraline etc) But i think from now on im going with faux sandbeds on future tanks. Its just easier to deal with the detritus when i can see it and remove it manually

Link to comment

Ive noticed, although it may be too early to tell, but with a partition at the back of the tank that has no sand and provided the sand is sugar sized so as to not allow detritus to settle in between grains and sufficient flow (mine is 75x), detritus ends up in the rear compartment where there is no sand and as easily siphoned out. This approach is kind of like a hybrid bb/sand setup.

 

You can see more details of my setup in my TJ http://www.masa.asn.au/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=144&t=258286 here. The back partition with the lack of sand was used to house and hide the heater but found that it may have an added benefit.

Link to comment
  • 6 months later...

Hello all, I just wanted to chime in with my pico. It's a JBJ Picotope - 3 gallons - and has a 0.5" sand bed. I remember when I started it and thought "well, maybe some gsp and Xenia, but that'll be about it." :P

 

http://s346.photobucket.com/user/dingusplease/media/Dingusplease%203g%20Pico%20Reef/Dingusplease%20Picotope/DC11D3C0-32CB-4DDF-9965-2CE58FDB2C1C_zpsld5tmhev.jpg.html]DC11D3C0-32CB-4DDF-9965-2CE58FDB2C1C_zps[/url]

 

This tank turned 1 year old very recently, and is going strong. There have been a lot of problems, but solving them has been one of the most enjoyable aspects of maintaining the tank. My goal right now is 5 years, but there's definitely no reason to stop after that!

 

Anyway, on the topic of sandbeds: This tank has had a sandbed from day one, and my plan is to keep it. My theory is that the best way to maintain a sandbed, which is itself a natural, important part of a marine ecosystem, is to take the biologically inspired route. Just because we keep sandbeds of mere inches does not mean they cannot serve a purpose, both aesthetic and biological. From thin sandbeds that provide homes for cleanup worms, to deep sandbeds that help process nutrients, sandbeds are at least not a detriment, if properly maintained. As the thread suggests, sandbeds in pico reefs are of a special type - in larger tanks sandbeds are prevalent, at least to my knowledge, in the overall hobby. In pico tanks, detritus can more easily become trapped in the cramped rock work and small footprint.

 

My solution is a tiger pistol shrimp . This shrimp, currently at 1", has gradually but efficiently turned over the sandbed a few times over. The rocks are sturdily placed - I took that measure on day one also. The result so far is a beautiful landscaping job, and a much whiter sandbed! The surface and under-layers of sand are white and constantly shifted, allowing built up detritus to safely enter the water and be filtered out.

 

I still don't know if this is a very sound reef keeping concept, but so far this scrimp seems to be taking care of the sand quite nicely!

 

If there's one other thing I'd like to add about pico longevity, it's refugiums. With my hob breeder box refugium, my params steadied out so much, that for an entire month (in the early months, before there was any LPS/SPS) I didn't do a signal water change. Previously the tank required rigorous weekly WCs to keep nitrates in check. For that month of repetitive param testing, there were no visible nitrates, or any other possibly harmful contaminants for that matter. With a reverse day/night refugium/DT light schedule, pH is steady as well.

 

I now do biweekly water changes as a matter of rep,wishing trace elements, but I think a refugium definitely helps on picos.

Thanks for reading!

Link to comment

I've been thinking about starting up a Fluval Spec III Pico (inspired mainly by andrewkw's heroic efforts). I'm pretty sure if I started it up, it would be bare bottom, for no particular reason other than easier maintenance. A sand bed would make me anxious on anything that small, although I can certainly see the biodiversity argument for a sand bed, I'm not sure it out weighs the arguments against in such a small volume of water.

 

Can't believe I missed this thread until now :(

Link to comment
  • 1 year later...

I have tried both methods and I have to say I have had more success with a sand bed. I've had three with and one without. Due to personal issues I shut down 2 of the sand bed and the bare bottom. The sand bed tanks made it to 6 and 8 months each and appeared healthier with clearer water and better growth

 

8C4EFD9D-3978-4DC8-9EC7-FEFA5D26C3C4_zps

 

I am still running one of the tanks with the sand beds so I am eager to hear other people's opinions on sand beds

Link to comment

the lifespan comparatives are off above, the impact is it shorts the documented time frames by 5 yrs fair to mention but I see your overall point of discuss

 

indeed Andrew's tank has been running a good long time and I like to reference it often.

 

the longest running picos use deep sand beds that are rinsed, 10 yrs is curr documented longest dsb interval in a pico. no bb pico has been running that long for alt comparison.

 

 

that's not a pro or con bed statement, stating documentation to pool from.

 

detritus is the cause of all issues imo, not the sandbed. its easy to have a dsb that is always clean, thereby working overall just like a no dsb bb tank.

 

I think El Fab's tank is a great demonstration of max lifespan one can get with a sandbed that takes on all detritus all the time, 3 yrs is consistent for that kind of setup in nanos then eutrophication sets in. indefinite lifespan is the current best documentation for a highly rinsed nano/pico. most 90% of all picos setup online in the last decade on any forum follow the hands off, constant storage model and try to find any 3 gals as old as El Fab's, most get less on that mode.

 

I personally think we need to add a sticky that shows how to get a lifespan longer than 3 yrs,

Link to comment

Ultimately the problem is that most nano keepers and pico keepers take their tanks down for various reasons, some related to sand issues but most due to various others. Too many variables to really nail down which is best. There are many systems that have gone for many years without sand and with sand. All we have is anecdotal evidence. Both have pros and cons.

Link to comment

But I would add something beyond anecdote though, after online tracking enough tank lifespans to see the 3 yr mark sticking even when they don't move I think a new claim can be made that any form of storage via uncleaned sandbed will limit a pico reefs potential lifespan in balance. after 3 yrs the enjoyment factor will go down substantially if a hands off mode was chosen, and an algae dealing mode will begin and to me that yields as many disconnects as moving just from threads cast around on the common forums.

Link to comment

Thanks for posting this thread guys. I'm just getting my pico tank up and running, and I thought long and hard on if I wanted to do a sand bed or go bare bottom. I've had a number of reef tanks in the past and have always favored a shallow sand bend of 1-2 inches or so, primarily for the aesthetics as well as the number of animals (inverts, wrasses, ect.) that benefit from sand beds. Since the majority of these animals cannot be reasonably housed in a pico tank, that portion of the argument is out. After much thought I decided to go bare bottom for ease of cleaning. My tank is a tall cylinder that is pretty packed with rock, so getting down to the sand bed without pulling the entire rock structure out would be difficult. I would say I have a much higher rock per gallon ratio than most pico tanks due to my tank configuration (10+ lbs in probably 2.5ish gallons of water), so I'm not really concerned with surface area for bacteria. It will be interesting to see how this goes, as I have never run a tank this way before.

 

At any rate, I look forward to hearing peoples experiences and opinions on this topic. I could easily add sand to my system later if the benefits are shown to outweigh the negative factors.

Link to comment

100% agreed it is never a bacteria issue even if you had one single chunk of live rock for your whole tank, and as much coral given the rock was hq porous

 

You will be able to feed heavy and change water heavy at least in intervals, no harm can come. If you ever did want sand it's easy to clean even if you can't part out the tank. I didn't take my vase apart until 9th year but the SB remained clean, I would blast clean it via hard pours that cast up waste and then rip change out any suspension leaving only old corals that just got blasted, as in a storm, replaced by fully clean water.

Any sandbed used even live sand should be rinsed terribly before use, precluding all forms of silt that will never benefit a tank and cause the keeper to be hands off and avoidant

 

People always assumed it rinsed away all the bacteria, remember the adage that bac isn't in water but affixed to vital surface area? Don't pick and choose with that adage, it's typically correct except for floc and transition phases :)

 

A powerful initial rinse means any sandbed can be accessed later, and anything that kicks up is pure detritus this is a massive planning detail in making deep sand beds run in pico reefs, the size of our bio models does not permit indefinite sandbed storage but they do permit continual cleaning and age reset by storing no detritus

 

Pre rinsed live sand such as caribsea doesn't lose its bacteria, rinsing is never a sterilizing activity. Those bags don't come with worms, pods, animals they are sand, water, bac additives like what's in bottles, and a bunch of silt from the prep and transport. Blast rinse all your sand before use as a core tenet of sandbedding, and do opposite of how most people do with sandbeds if they are to be used in pico reefs, clean them or get a limited lifespan tank.

 

A no sandbed tank is just that much easier to clean :)

 

 

Larger tank sandbeds are able to store more due to volumes and dilution they aren't accurate models for pico reefs

 

Even a 2.5 gallon tank with a dsb is a better model of what a sandbed full of waste causes because you don't have to wait years to see, I think this thread should include primarily pico reef examples to make it unique compared to the typical sandbed/no sandbed thread.

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recommended Discussions

×
×
  • Create New...