Clam Questions: Carbon dosing and PAR

[Hart24601]

So this is really 2 questions. I have seen Zeph say carbon dosing is great for clams. Can he, or anyone explain? I understand they may be carbon limited, but what part of the dosing do they benefit from? Direct consumption of bacteria? I tried a literature review and couldn't find much about clams directly consuming bacteria, zooxanthellae yes, but we don't don't know if carbon dosing increases those in an aquarium. I did find a paper stating clams can Ingest particle sizes of 6-50um, which is in the range of bacteria sizes we find in the aquaria, especially if you count aggregations of bacteria, but the type and quantity I couldn’t find anything about. There was a paper that suggested supplementary filter feeding was important in deeper water species as maxima (I think it was these species) and derasa had the same photosynthetic output so the deeper clam couldn’t meet the energy needs with the amount of light it received. The author came to the conclusion that the deeper water species could live in this environment not do to greater photosynthetic efficiency, but because of filter feeding. I bring that up only because would carbon dosing be not as important to high light requirement clams? Can they not use the carbon dosing (if eating carbon dosing increased species).

 

Advanced Aquarist also ran an interesting article where they did not see much bacterial increase in the water column with vodka dosing. They said it was probable that the bacteria numbers did increase, but so the bacteria consumers. Would the clams possibly eat those bacteria consuming organisms?

 

Just wondering how clams would use the carbon from carbon dosing.

 

2^nd question. I know clams have lots of variability with light. But does anyone think crocea were so hard to keep because even under MH lights many just couldn’t get enough light? Like 1000 PAR plus? I had a crocea under 1500PAR led for almost a year. I moved him to 400PAR in another system and he died in a month. I wonder if those suckers (not all but some) need TONS of light, even higher than most MH systems.

[Hart24601]

I should clarify, of course there could have been many things that killed the crocea, but that system had lots of SPS and has been going for years. The timeframe also seems similar to starvation from what I have read. It's all anecdotal evidence, but still. I had two maximas in there too, lower level around 600-800 par and they would retract after several hours and I moved them even lower before they were happy. For those clams I had it seemed the crocea needed 1000 PAR plus and the maximas hated it, despite often hearing they have similar requirements - of course keeping in mind how much individuals can vary.

[metrokat]

I had a crocea under 1500PAR led for almost a year. I moved him to 400PAR in another system and he died in a month. I wonder if those suckers (not all but some) need TONS of light, even higher than most MH systems.

It is possible that in addition to light deprivation (400 PAR is great but your clam was used to more), your other system may have had low nutrients and the clam starved. A month seems about right for this to happen.

[ZephNYC]

Well its about time somebody gave me a reason to talk about this, because as you've seen there is little to zero information regarding the benefits of carbon dosing on tridacnids.

In a nutshell, what all life boils down to is carbon requirements. If they are not met you will die. you will read over and over that all Tridacnids can meet their carbon requirements as long as they have enough light, but I find this far from the truth. When clams die in about a month it is because they have starved or are damaged ( collection). Healthy clams can actually take low light for quite a long time....like months, and all they will do is bleach out,( abandon) or increase zoox and get even more colorful. Often looking best right before they die. Not all clams gape either. And gaping is not always indicative of starvation.

I LOVE carbon dosing for clams because you are directly feeding them what they need, which is dissolved sugars/carbon. This is so much better then feeding phyto or any other coral food, which has to go through many deterioration phases to eventually become a carbon source, because your clams get more from the un eaten food that gets stuck in your rocks, sand bed and reactors, then it does from the minute amount that actually makes into their digestive system. So Vodka, sugar or vinegar dosing for clams has absolutely nothing to do with the bacterial increase in the water column, which indeed would benefit the clams as well, but simply the increased available carbon source, which soft corals seam to appreciate as well. Acroporas seam to get darker also. But let it be known that not all reefs respond positive to the extra available carbon, so the rest is up to you!

[ZephNYC]

I should clarify, of course there could have been many things that killed the crocea, but that system had lots of SPS and has been going for years. The timeframe also seems similar to starvation from what I have read. It's all anecdotal evidence, but still. I had two maximas in there too, lower level around 600-800 par and they would retract after several hours and I moved them even lower before they were happy. For those clams I had it seemed the crocea needed 1000 PAR plus and the maximas hated it, despite often hearing they have similar requirements - of course keeping in mind how much individuals can vary.

 

I only use halides on all 4 of my clam tanks, so I know exactly what your talking about, and this is what works for me. Most Maximas cant take any 10K halides over 150W unless they are very deep or the lights are hung very high.. Under 250W, 10K they close up early in the day because the light is just to bright.. However they LOVE 14K 250 - 400W and will bask spread eagle all day long. In my best 125 Gal clam tank I run two 400W, 14K Halides on the right and left sides, and a 150W, 10K in the middle.

[Hart24601]

Thanks for the replies!

 

 

It is possible that in addition to light deprivation (400 PAR is great but your clam was used to more), your other system may have had low nutrients and the clam starved. A month seems about right for this to happen.

 

That is very possible. The system the clam went into was a skimmerless one so I never thought about lack of nutrients, my 1st thought was light but that tank typically reads very low nutrients. It does seem likely those issues are related.

 

About 1 year ago I tore down my 65 for a "redo". I was hoping to only run a floating algae scrubber for filtration, but that didn't work out well and put my tank in a big hurt. I still believe in scrubbers, but not the floating ones, there seems to be something missing with them, perhaps lack of flow when looking at the waterfall ones, but anyway my tank had algae and nutrient problems. I was really at my limit with that tank but started vodka dosing. Drew's doser with a timer - and of course a new cadlights skimmer.

 

I am now a huge fan in vodka dosing! It saved my system, and that isn't an exaggeration. Anyway that has been going for 6 months now (I had to look up the pump receipt, lol). Good SPS and LPS growth, although I will say I think vodka + LPS loving clown = brown jelly deaths so the clown got a new home. He was just a bit too rough with them and gave them small cuts that got infected. I suspect the vodka only fueled that.

 

Anyway the point of my rambling is that I got a 5" maxima clam and I have not had a clam since I started the vodka so I am trying to find out more about carbon dosing and clams. I never thought about if the clam had the ability to pull the etoh directly from the water for the carbon, but I have read they can absorb ammonia and such so it doesn't seem unreasonable. I will leave the chemistry to Randy, I am a microbiologist and know when something is out of my specialty!

 

I run barebottom, but the maxima was attached to a very small rock and the shell isn't flat enough to sit on the bottom so I filled a small container with somewhat course substrate to put him on. So far so good, no moving around or looking unhappy. Last time I checked that spot it was 450ish PAR, but that was with glass covers. I removed those but also raised the light so I figure around 400 PAR min. Phosphates generally 10ppb or less (0.03ppm), nitrates 0.2ppm usually.

[afyounie]

This is very interesting. I'd like to keep a clam in the future and discussions like this teach so much about clam care. I have to say though, thinking about how clams like vodka dosing makes me picture an alcoholic clam spread out on the sand bed. A small bottle next to them. Be careful, dose too much and you might have to take the clam to AA.

[ZephNYC]

This is very interesting. I'd like to keep a clam in the future and discussions like this teach so much about clam care. I have to say though, thinking about how clams like vodka dosing makes me picture an alcoholic clam spread out on the sand bed. A small bottle next to them. Be careful, dose too much and you might have to take the clam to AA.

 

Every time I show my tanks to regular people they look at my cross eyed when I explain the big bottles of Vodka in every room are not for me but for the fish. Yes my fish are alcoholics. I live in an apartment building and have tanks on the 5th floor as well as the basement. I used to run up and down with the vodka bottle to dose all my tanks, but often people would catch me in the elevator at 8 AM carrying a bottle of Vodka...and that really does not look good!!!!

[TheUnfocusedOne]

What are you basing your claim on?

 

I don't think your clam is directly utilizing the alcohol.