Luxeon Rebel ES 'Lime' - pics and PAR

[jedimasterben]

What is CRI and CCT, evil? Sorry, beyond how much lighting I need for my tank, I don't know much else. >.<

CRI is color rendering index, basically how well a light source can replicate color, with higher typically being better (and usually only in warmer whites, but recently there have been 4000 and even 5000K chips with 90CRI minimum), and 100 being the sun, which renders all colors that human eyes can perceive.

 

CCT is correlated color temperature, which is, well color temperature.

[andi.rahl]

CRI is color rendering index, basically how well a light source can replicate color, with higher typically being better (and usually only in warmer whites, but recently there have been 4000 and even 5000K chips with 90CRI minimum), and 100 being the sun, which renders all colors that human eyes can perceive.

 

CCT is correlated color temperature, which is, well color temperature.

thanks!

[Nightstar]

I won't be adding any lime LEDs to my array. This is the specific portion of the spectrum that is not only present in all white LEDs but is also the portion I've striven to compensate for when lighting my reef since the '80s. I've never thought my reef would look better if only my lights were more yellow/green. Cyan is a better use of green budget since every white LED is deficient around 500nm which just happens to be an important range for stimulating certain carotenoids.

 

The balance of reflective to fluorescent brightness in my tank has already been struck, if however I wanted it brighter I could just increase the ratio of white/cyan to blue/violet until my eyes told me it was adequately bright. If I wanted it warmer I'd swap some NW for WW.

 

I can see how inclusion of lime might warm up general home and office lighting but for reefs, no... just no.

[evilc66]

I hear what you are saying, but I've done the same thing with tweaking the white/blue/cyan balance till I'm blue in the face. Sure, I've made my various arrays look good, but I have yet to see any combination of direct colors combined with white that gives the same effect as adding lime to the mix. It's the only thing that has made the light look as good if not better than MH.

 

It's not for everyone. I understand that. But it does have a real benefit if you are trying to get your light to look a certain way and can't. Anyone that has used good high end 12-14K MH lamps, like Ushio, Hamilton, Phoenix, etc. will tell you that there is no LED setup out there that will look the same. I'm telling you flat out, the setup that I have now from Dave looks exactly like a Hamilton 12K, and looks way better than a Phoenix 14K in every respect.

 

It's hard to really convey just what it does for the light through words, and even through pictures. It really is something that has to be seen to be believed.

[DaveFason]

I hear what you are saying, but I've done the same thing with tweaking the white/blue/cyan balance till I'm blue in the face. Sure, I've made my various arrays look good, but I have yet to see any combination of direct colors combined with white that gives the same effect as adding lime to the mix. It's the only thing that has made the light look as good if not better than MH.

 

It's not for everyone. I understand that. But it does have a real benefit if you are trying to get your light to look a certain way and can't. Anyone that has used good high end 12-14K MH lamps, like Ushio, Hamilton, Phoenix, etc. will tell you that there is no LED setup out there that will look the same. I'm telling you flat out, the setup that I have now from Dave looks exactly like a Hamilton 12K, and looks way better than a Phoenix 14K in every respect.

 

It's hard to really convey just what it does for the light through words, and even through pictures. It really is something that has to be seen to be believed.

TRUTH!

[fredfish01]

... Anyone that has used good high end 12-14K MH lamps, like Ushio, Hamilton, Phoenix, etc. will tell you that there is no LED setup out there that will look the same. I'm telling you flat out, the setup that I have now from Dave looks exactly like a Hamilton 12K, and looks way better than a Phoenix 14K in every respect.

....

So if you want a more white look, in the 10-12K range, then you should include lime in your build?

 

How does it compare to the T5 look that a lot of people really love? I would think that you lose a little pop to get that 12K look.

[xiaoxiy]

TRUTH!

So, when are ya going to offer the option to retrofit existing Nanoboxes with lime?

 

[jedimasterben]

So if you want a more white look, in the 10-12K range, then you should include lime in your build?

 

How does it compare to the T5 look that a lot of people really love? I would think that you lose a little pop to get that 12K look.

Like with white LEDs, you have control over CCT, so you can make your light look like anything you want. Lumen for lumen, though, the lime is brighter than white LEDs without being 'whiter', if that makes sense.

 

The look with T5 is soft, distributed light and is not really possible with point-source lighting such as metal halide and LED at this time, especially with high-powered LEDs. It takes a LOT of diffusion to get there, and even then, it still looks point-source.

 

So, when are ya going to offer the option to retrofit existing Nanoboxes with lime?

 

I think the last I talked to him he was waiting to use up his current boards and then after that will switch over by default, but lime is an option now for a little extra.

[fredfish01]

Like with white LEDs, you have control over CCT, so you can make your light look like anything you want. Lumen for lumen, though, the lime is brighter than white LEDs without being 'whiter', if that makes sense.

It peaks at the most sensitive point in our visual spectrum so that makes perfect sense.

 

 

The look with T5 is soft, distributed light and is not really possible with point-source lighting such as metal halide and LED at this time, especially with high-powered LEDs. It takes a LOT of diffusion to get there, and even then, it still looks point-source.

What I was trying to get at is the colour temperature look. I understand it is not a distributed light source. T5s have a very narrow peak at 550 nm vs. the much broader peak of the Luxeon lime. I'm wondering how that impacts colour.

 

I personally find the T5 look to be artificial, probably because it is missing so much of the spectrum between 500 nm and 600 nm.

 

I do think it would be useful to people to characterize the differences between an LED setup using limes and the more traditional T5 setup: a reference point or sorts.

 

Edit: I'm also curious to know what happens when you try to use the PC amber to adjust ctt. The folks at Reef LED Lab seem to prefer amber over lime. I'm curious to know why.

[DNK]

By the way. To confirm my opinion about low value of Lime to photosyntesis: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/5/aafeature

[jedimasterben]

What I was trying to get at is the colour temperature look. I understand it is not a distributed light source. T5s have a very narrow peak at 550 nm vs. the much broader peak of the Luxeon lime. I'm wondering how that impacts colour.

 

I personally find the T5 look to be artificial, probably because it is missing so much of the spectrum between 500 nm and 600 nm.

 

I do think it would be useful to people to characterize the differences between an LED setup using limes and the more traditional T5 setup: a reference point or sorts.

 

Edit: I'm also curious to know what happens when you try to use the PC amber to adjust ctt. The folks at Reef LED Lab seem to prefer amber over lime. I'm curious to know why.

Unfortunately I don't have enough higher-wattage ballasts, reflectors, and endcaps to be able to test multibulb combinations (and the significant cost of bulbs).

 

One of my projects is to replicate T5 spectrum using LEDs. So far my tests are proving to look good using no white LEDs, but I have not had the chance to put lime and violet into the mix to see how close I can get. The other issue would be making distributed light out of point-source lights. This would need to be done using the Luxeon Z line on custom PCB mounted within a millimeter or so to each other, using one PCB per 4-6", and having an efficient diffuser under them. Probably won't move forward with this due to high PCB prototyping cost and the difficulty in mounting the Z without proper equipment for easy testing, but it's an interesting project.

 

By the way. To confirm my opinion about low value of Lime to photosyntesis: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/5/aafeature

Do you have the same opinion of 'warmer' white metal halide bulbs that emit significant radiation in green and red and less in blue?

[DC5]

Thanks for the write-up Jedi!

[jedimasterben]

Thanks for the write-up Jedi!

 

No problemo

[evilc66]

It peaks at the most sensitive point in our visual spectrum so that makes perfect sense.

 

 

What I was trying to get at is the colour temperature look. I understand it is not a distributed light source. T5s have a very narrow peak at 550 nm vs. the much broader peak of the Luxeon lime. I'm wondering how that impacts colour.

 

I personally find the T5 look to be artificial, probably because it is missing so much of the spectrum between 500 nm and 600 nm.

 

I do think it would be useful to people to characterize the differences between an LED setup using limes and the more traditional T5 setup: a reference point or sorts.

 

Edit: I'm also curious to know what happens when you try to use the PC amber to adjust ctt. The folks at Reef LED Lab seem to prefer amber over lime. I'm curious to know why.

I think you will find that peak is closer to 545nm, which is the mercury line (actually at 546nm, but who's counting ) that is emitted by virtually every fluorescent and gas discharge lamp on the market (anything that uses mercury anyway, which is the vast majority).

 

 

By the way. To confirm my opinion about low value of Lime to photosyntesis: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/5/aafeature

 

 

Who cares? If we only cared about photosynthesis, our tanks would look terrible to us with everything being heavily weighted into the blue/violet spectrum, with a hint of red in there making the light look more purple. Yes, the primary use for our lights is to keep our tank inhabitants healthy, but we do have to enjoy what we are looking at too. If lime does that, then use it.

[DNK]

Who cares? If we only cared about photosynthesis

As I wrote earlier, Lime is interesting only to increase brightness for naked eye. No more. My last post is proof for this opinion. No more

[jedimasterben]

As I wrote earlier, Lime is interesting only to increase brightness for naked eye. No more. My last post is proof for this opinion. No more

According to the article, it's not proof that it is not useful for photosynthesis, as just the spectral half-width of the lime (which is from ~510-610nm) covers ~26% of the photosynthetic absorption spectra in table 2.

[DNK]

Sure No one part of visible light can be more than ~30% worst for photosyntesis than any other.

[markalot]

It's still lime.

[fredfish01]

Unfortunately I don't have enough higher-wattage ballasts, reflectors, and endcaps to be able to test multibulb combinations (and the significant cost of bulbs).

See now, if you hadn't spent all that money on shipping...

 

 

One of my projects is to replicate T5 spectrum using LEDs. So far my tests are proving to look good using no white LEDs, but I have not had the chance to put lime and violet into the mix to see how close I can get,

I have not seen any posts on this. Care to share? Some posts on another forum by Pacific Sun got me thinking about this, but I'm not sure I want to get pulled down that rabbit hole.

 

The other issue would be making distributed light out of point-source lights. This would need to be done using the Luxeon Z line on custom PCB mounted within a millimeter or so to each other, using one PCB per 4-6", and having an efficient diffuser under them. Probably won't move forward with this due to high PCB prototyping cost and the difficulty in mounting the Z without proper equipment for easy testing, but it's an interesting project.

An interesting project indeed. You might find significant interest in this. I originally wanted to go with a combination of 3 ups and singles to get to small clusters, but I'm concerned about disco unless the individual chips are closer together like a custom luxion Z pcb. The cost of the Luxeon T 8 up and the Vero have me looking at the evil cluster route.

 

Ideally, I'd like to use clusters of 7 to 10 LEDs at similar spacing (7" centers). The Z package would be perfect. Unfortunately, I have no pcb design skilz. I had a 6 unit cluster laid out using 2 RB, 1 B, 1 CY, 1WW, 1/2 Violet. Using a T 8up a Vero and some Blue, cyan and Violets in larger clusters is much more cost effective.

 

I'd be really interested if you went ahead with a minicluster custom PCB.

[jedimasterben]

It's still lime.

You're still lime

 

See now, if you hadn't spent all that money on shipping...

 

I have not seen any posts on this. Care to share? Some posts on another forum by Pacific Sun got me thinking about this, but I'm not sure I want to get pulled down that rabbit hole.\

 

An interesting project indeed. You might find significant interest in this. I originally wanted to go with a combination of 3 ups and singles to get to small clusters, but I'm concerned about disco unless the individual chips are closer together like a custom luxion Z pcb. The cost of the Luxeon T 8 up and the Vero have me looking at the evil cluster route.

 

Ideally, I'd like to use clusters of 7 to 10 LEDs at similar spacing (7" centers). The Z package would be perfect. Unfortunately, I have no pcb design skilz. I had a 6 unit cluster laid out using 2 RB, 1 B, 1 CY, 1WW, 1/2 Violet. Using a T 8up a Vero and some Blue, cyan and Violets in larger clusters is much more cost effective.

 

I'd be really interested if you went ahead with a minicluster custom PCB.

I'm gonna try and keep this thread on topic, I'm going to quote you in my light build thread and we can discuss it there.

[Paleoreef103]

The TL: DR version of this seems to be:

 

Lime is primarily included for aesthetics and secondarily for the photosynthesis just like throwing ATI purple + or KZ Fuji purple bulbs into your T5 unit. They can add that little something extra to make things just look perfect and are best used in a supporting role.

 

Ben, Clyde, and Dave all seem to be sold on the benefits of it and to me that says it's worth giving a good long look at to see if you like it.

 

And as always when dealing with aesthetics, your mileage may vary.

[Gilligan]

Green is virtually useless to plants and algae.

 

That is why they are green, to reflect the light that they don't want.

 

Is the goal now to replicate fluorescent light? I though everyone was running waya screaming from that type of light.

Are you after the colour or distribution?

[jedimasterben]

The TL: DR version of this seems to be:

 

Lime is primarily included for aesthetics and secondarily for the photosynthesis just like throwing ATI purple + or KZ Fuji purple bulbs into your T5 unit. They can add that little something extra to make things just look perfect and are best used in a supporting role.

 

Ben, Clyde, and Dave all seem to be sold on the benefits of it and to me that says it's worth giving a good long look at to see if you like it.

 

And as always when dealing with aesthetics, your mileage may vary.

Shit, don't even listen to me, listen to them, I'm just makin this stuff up as I go

 

Green is virtually useless to plants and algae.

 

That is why they are green, to reflect the light that they don't want.

Just because it is reflected doesn't mean it is reflected 100%. Crocea clams almost exclusively have blue mantles, but they still need immense amounts of blue light.

[markalot]

[jedimasterben]

I think that is a lemon, not a lime