Jump to content
SaltCritters.com

Luxeon Rebel ES 'Lime' - pics and PAR


jedimasterben

Recommended Posts

jedimasterben

Yo guys. So I've been wanting to test out the Luxeon Rebel ES lime ever since I saw Dave Fason's test Nanobox Duo at Reefapalooza. I had to have my own to play with and figure out some good color ratios. Steve's LEDs was the first to have them mounted and for sale, I believe RapidLED is planning on having them mounted, as well, but I don't have an ETA.

So anyway, I asked Steve's when they would be ready, and they replied that they'd have them Wednesday (of last week), and that they'd be sending me some along with some other LEDs to help figuring out the color ratios. So here we are. :)

 

The Setup


For this test, I'll be using the following LEDs, mounted to a 12" MakersLED heatsink with two layers of 'sand' diffuser on the acrylic splash shield, powered by Meanwell LDD drivers, two inside a MakersDRIVER for manual control, two mounted to a custom PCB for simple on/off:

6x 4000K 85CRI neutral white Rebel ES
12x 445nm royal blue Rebel ES
4x 475nm blue Rebel
2x 505nm cyan Rebel
2x 630nm red Rebel
2x wide-spectrum PC amber Rebel
6x wide-spectrum lime Rebel ES


They were split into the following channels:
CH1: 6x 4K NW
CH2: 6x lime
CH3: 12x RB
CH4: 4x B, 2x C, 2x R, 2x PCA


Channels 1, 2, and 3 were run at 1A, channel 4 was run at 700mA.

Pictures were taken with a Canon Rebel T2i using the stock 18-55mm lens, aperture priority, f4.0, ISO 100, white balance adjusted in Adobe Lightroom.

PAR measurements were taken using the Apogee SQ-110 quantum sensor connected to a digital multimeter. The royal blue LED string was measured separately and is the only measurement that is adjusted for quantum sensor sensitivity deficiency for blue spectrum. The PAR sensor is exactly 22" away from the diodes on-axis.



Ok, now that all that's out of the way, let's get to the meat of it. Holy shit, guys. The lime are insanely bright. I can't get over what they bring to the table. With just NW alone, the tank had a slightly purplish hue, and while still bright, the lime absolutely blew it away. Even turning the NW string off and only using lime looked fantastic. The best looking combination, though, is half lime and half NW, maybe even with a bit more lime than that, which really makes it easy to change up current combinations - either remove half of your NW LEDs and put lime in, or add in lime on their own driver and run both down to around 50%. Lime blends very well with royal blue, just like white LEDs do, so keep them clustered closely, and diffuse if possible. This array I built is a halide KILLER!

 

Pictures


This is with all LEDs at 100% intensity.
IMG_6949.jpg


Only NW
IMG_6972.jpg


Only lime
IMG_6977.jpg


Only RB/B/C/R/PCA
IMG_6946.jpg


NW 100%, lime 0%, the rest 100%
IMG_6958.jpg


Lime 100%, NW 0%, the rest 100%
IMG_6952.jpg


Lime 50%, NW 50%, the rest 100%
IMG_6965.jpg



My photography skills are not the best, and my lens is not great, but the colors are as accurate as possible (only very minor adjustments in Lightroom).

 

 

Almost forgot about PAR :)

 

 

PAR READINGS

 

NW 0%, lime 0%, the rest 100%

87 PAR

 

NW 100%, lime 0%, the rest 100%

111 PAR

 

NW 0%, lime 100%, the rest 100%

114 PAR

 

NW 50%, lime 50%, the rest 100%

114 PAR

 

NW 100%, lime 100%, the rest 100%
138 PAR

 

 

 


Conclusion

 

Lime is looking to be a fantastic addition to LED arrays. Is it the best thing since sliced bread? Maybe, maybe not, but it's still damn awesome, and I very much look forward to having my full tank lighting include plenty of lime.



tl:dr
Add lime. Do it. :)


Thanks again to Steve's LEDs for providing the LEDs!

Link to comment
  • Replies 108
  • Created
  • Last Reply
bdevillier19

this is great. now i can place my order. thanks for all the work, knowledge, and willingness to be the guinea pig. you da man! :bowdown:

Link to comment

Can you take a pic with lime, whites and rb? Appreciate it. Just want to get an idea since I don't plan on adding any of the others you have but am curious what L/NW/RB will look like.

Link to comment

Thank you, Ben, good work.

 

But please don't forget to clarify each time, when you will use for PAR measurement Apogee SQ-110 about that fact - this is NOT quantum sensor. Errors in violet area may be up to 300%.

 

Also I think about necessity of lime should not be overrated. In my opinion it is may be useful only for one matter - increasing brightness for naked eye. Radiation of this wavelength range is badly absorbed by corals. Measurement of PAR for Lime does not matter, because we should consider PUR, not PAR in any case. Also, usefulness of Lime for fluorescence is near to zero.

 

On other hand, efficacy of Lime is not very higher than for best white LEDs. Please note - the best available in this time bin of Lime can produce approximately 170LPW for current 700mA, but best available cool white LED Luxeon TX can produce 150LPW at same current.

 

Also I would like to remind one more important thing. When we talking about "Lime not affect CCT" we should not forget about important for reefkeepers matter. It is true only for CCT's, that used usually for general lighting. When we use Lime for marine tank, we forced to use with it and plenty of royal blue.

 

To be honest - visual brightness it is exactly what is missing for many people in LED fixture for marine aquaria. Lime may solve this problem in best way :)

Link to comment

What have we created ;)

 

Instead of Ben taking a thousand more photos think of lime this way. Like DNK said above, it really brightens things up. To ME it also allows for a much more crisp array of light. The array of lime I am using ( ~ 2 months ) is different from Bens/Jedis but mix with your white string. Going 1:1 with your whites make it look fantastic and allows for less wiring/driver.

 

Again this is VERY new so there is no wrong or right answer.

 

-Dave

Link to comment
NirvanaandTool

Awesome. Thanks for testing that out for us Ben.

 

Really liking that last 50/50/100 picture.

 

What's your impressions of the PC amber?

Link to comment
jedimasterben

Looks pretty good Ben. You didn't happen to get any readings with JUST lime did you ?

You can take the lime 100%/NW 0% reading and subtract 'the rest 100%' reading, it shows the difference between the base colors and the two 'white' sources.

 

Interesting. Thanks for the pics. I like Lime 100%, NW 0%, the rest 100%

It's pretty nice, but I do like the 50/50 best. I wish I had more coral to take pictures of between the different lights to show the difference (but that would add a LOT of time to adjust everything, get the pictures, select the best exposure, adjust the color to match what it looks like in person, and upload them. lol

 

this is great. now i can place my order. thanks for all the work, knowledge, and willingness to be the guinea pig. you da man! :bowdown:

Es no problemo :)

 

Can you take a pic with lime, whites and rb? Appreciate it. Just want to get an idea since I don't plan on adding any of the others you have but am curious what L/NW/RB will look like.

I'll see what I can do.

 

Thank you, Ben, good work.

 

But please don't forget to clarify each time, when you will use for PAR measurement Apogee SQ-110 about that fact - this is NOT quantum sensor. Errors in violet area may be up to 300%.

 

Also I think about necessity of lime should not be overrated. In my opinion it is may be useful only for one matter - increasing brightness for naked eye. Radiation of this wavelength range is badly absorbed by corals. Measurement of PAR for Lime does not matter, because we should consider PUR, not PAR in any case. Also, usefulness of Lime for fluorescence is near to zero.

 

On other hand, efficacy of Lime is not very higher than for best white LEDs. Please note - the best available in this time bin of Lime can produce approximately 170LPW for current 700mA, but best available cool white LED Luxeon TX can produce 150LPW at same current.

 

Also I would like to remind one more important thing. When we talking about "Lime not affect CCT" we should not forget about important for reefkeepers matter. It is true only for CCT's, that used usually for general lighting. When we use Lime for marine tank, we forced to use with it and plenty of royal blue.

 

To be honest - visual brightness it is exactly what is missing for many people in LED fixture for marine aquaria. Lime may solve this problem in best way :)

This particular array does not have any violet in it (the lowest are the low-nm royals), and the meter reads those to around 80% and were corrected for. Compared to the 1500 lumens of white that this array has, there is no contest of brightness between them at 100% and the 6 lime LEDs even at 50%. At 100% lime it is blinding :)

 

What have we created ;)

70bf5f017837cd89b7dbcfeb1a0c8d6e8d2d72d9

 

Instead of Ben taking a thousand more photos think of lime this way. Like DNK said above, it really brightens things up. To ME it also allows for a much more crisp array of light. The array of lime I am using ( ~ 2 months ) is different from Bens/Jedis but mix with your white string. Going 1:1 with your whites make it look fantastic and allows for less wiring/driver.

 

Again this is VERY new so there is no wrong or right answer.

 

-Dave

^ all of this. If you're not sure about them, buy some and play with them in a small array like the one I made.

 

Awesome. Thanks for testing that out for us Ben.

 

Really liking that last 50/50/100 picture.

 

What's your impressions of the PC amber?

They're also really, really bright lol. That's why the RB/B/C/R/PCA picture looks like it is kinda white and not just saturated blue.

 

How many limes would you say for a vero 10?

Depends on the current you are running. About the best look is 50/50 white and lime.

Link to comment

Please note that Bens camera was attempting to get the same exposure(brightness) for each of the images.

 

 

They would not have all really been of equal brightness as they appear in the photos. Ben was kind enough to leave the EXIF data in the images he posted. With that, using the light meter in Ben's camera, one can determine that one lighting scenario was/is twice as bright visually as another, etc.

Link to comment

I hates green. What's the point of lime again? I know it's subjective but anytime I add green to any tank I think it looks horrible, like a bad 10K bulk with too much green. My suggestion would be to make sure they are on their own channel so you can turn them off. :D

Link to comment
jedimasterben

I hates green. What's the point of lime again? I know it's subjective but anytime I add green to any tank I think it looks horrible, like a bad 10K bulk with too much green. My suggestion would be to make sure they are on their own channel so you can turn them off. :D

Somebody didn't read the thread :P

Link to comment

Somebody didn't read the thread :P

 

But you say they are insanely bright? Our eyes detect green higher than any other color, and I think the added perceived brightness to the tank washes out the other colors that makes reef tanks look so good. In other words, take a tank with good PAR and great color corals and add some lime. It will look brighter, and all the coral colors will look more washed out. IMO of course.

 

9207-001.gif

 

This is why 10K bulbs look so damn bright ... lots of green. I know you know this, but I'm thinking of the children who will be hurt by putting lime in their fixtures! :D Again, I'm just spouting my biased opinion here.

Link to comment

To be honest - visual brightness it is exactly what is missing for many people in LED fixture for marine aquaria.

 

They may think that's what's missing, and it may be true for fish only tanks, but for tanks with corals the ability to select high PAR led's with the appropriate color mix for the corals is what makes LED's look so damn good, IMO. Making it brighter to our eyes reverses the advantage.

 

But of course this is completely subjective and I can only give my opinion. No right or wrong answer, especially if they are placed on their own channel.

Link to comment
jedimasterben

But you say they are insanely bright? Our eyes detect green higher than any other color, and I think the added perceived brightness to the tank washes out the other colors that makes reef tanks look so good. In other words, take a tank with good PAR and great color corals and add some lime. It will look brighter, and all the coral colors will look more washed out. IMO of course.

 

9207-001.gif

 

This is why 10K bulbs look so damn bright ... lots of green. I know you know this, but I'm thinking of the children who will be hurt by putting lime in their fixtures! :D Again, I'm just spouting my biased opinion here.

They may think that's what's missing, and it may be true for fish only tanks, but for tanks with corals the ability to select high PAR led's with the appropriate color mix for the corals is what makes LED's look so damn good, IMO. Making it brighter to our eyes reverses the advantage.

 

But of course this is completely subjective and I can only give my opinion. No right or wrong answer, especially if they are placed on their own channel.

lol, THINK OF THE CHILDREN! :D

 

What is the "appropriate color mix for corals", though? Corals want light in the 400-700nm range, and they really don't care much about how they get it as long as the intensity is there. How they look is completely up to the user. Do you want blue-saturated light that only shows fluorescent (aka mostly green) colors or do you want a balanced light that shows fluorescent and non-fluorescent colors alike? Again, it's all up to the end user, but what this thread is about is to show what they can do and how we can use them.

Link to comment

This particular array does not have any violet in it (the lowest are the low-nm royals), and the meter reads those to around 80% and were corrected for.

Agreed. I'm sorry, I was inattentive.

But I could not think that the assembly for marine tank does not contain violet LEDs :)

Link to comment
Reefmaster1996

Showing the results/possibilities is what was needed, what the user decides to do with this info is up to them. I just wanted to see what would happen when adding lime= hella brighter light and decent spectral range

Link to comment

hella brighter light and decent spectral range

Brighter - definitely YES. But about second... I'm not sure. As markalot told it is completely subjective.

 

Today I thinking about it's quantity in our future flagship projector. It may be 2pcs or 3pcs of Lime per total 130Wt of LEDs power on projector, I don't know yet...

Link to comment

lol, THINK OF THE CHILDREN! :D

 

What is the "appropriate color mix for corals", though? Corals want light in the 400-700nm range, and they really don't care much about how they get it as long as the intensity is there. How they look is completely up to the user. Do you want blue-saturated light that only shows fluorescent (aka mostly green) colors or do you want a balanced light that shows fluorescent and non-fluorescent colors alike? Again, it's all up to the end user, but what this thread is about is to show what they can do and how we can use them.

 

Well, that's an interesting question. I'm thinking about recent tests that showed red light is mainly responsible for harming corals when too much is provided while blue light was not shown, in that experiment, to cause any issues.

 

Then I look at one of the light at depth images.

 

Light-Penetration.jpg

 

... and I think, this could be yet another instance where LED's can fry corals due to incorrect spectral balance.

 

Lime is listed as typically 567 - 568, so it's penetration in the ocean, depending on the environment, is typically less than green and cyan, so is it possible this could cause issues in tanks with less light loving corals? At typical tank depths it seems to me that even a low level of lime is going to be bathing the coral in more of that spectrum than it's usually used too.

 

I honestly have no idea and obviously I'm biased due to my hatred of the greens. :)

Link to comment

so is it possible this could cause issues in tanks with less light loving corals? At typical tank depths it seems to me that even a low level of lime is going to be bathing the coral in more of that spectrum than it's usually used too.

I think probability of problem with "near to green" part of spectrum is depend on the ratio of "green" radiation to radiation with shorter wavelength. Luckily, necessary for high visible brightness the quantity of Lime radiation is relatively small and I think in most cases it should not cause any problem :)

Link to comment
jedimasterben

 

Agreed. I'm sorry, I was inattentive.

But I could not think that the assembly for marine tank does not contain violet LEDs :)

This is the first I've built that didn't, but it's only because the violets I have on hand are the N5 that will be on my main array. If this were my final array, it would be loaded down with violets :)

 

 

Showing the results/possibilities is what was needed, what the user decides to do with this info is up to them. I just wanted to see what would happen when adding lime= hella brighter light and decent spectral range

 

Brighter - definitely YES. But about second... I'm not sure. As markalot told it is completely subjective.

 

Today I thinking about it's quantity in our future flagship projector. It may be 2pcs or 3pcs of Lime per total 130Wt of LEDs power on projector, I don't know yet...

Depends on how much white light is already in the array. Going 50/50 lumens to lumens seems to give the best result while still keeping the blue in the white LEDs.

 

 

Well, that's an interesting question. I'm thinking about recent tests that showed red light is mainly responsible for harming corals when too much is provided while blue light was not shown, in that experiment, to cause any issues.

 

Then I look at one of the light at depth images.

 

Light-Penetration.jpg

 

... and I think, this could be yet another instance where LED's can fry corals due to incorrect spectral balance.

 

Lime is listed as typically 567 - 568, so it's penetration in the ocean, depending on the environment, is typically less than green and cyan, so is it possible this could cause issues in tanks with less light loving corals? At typical tank depths it seems to me that even a low level of lime is going to be bathing the coral in more of that spectrum than it's usually used too.

 

I honestly have no idea and obviously I'm biased due to my hatred of the greens. :)

The issue with that picture is that it is measured in meters, not feet. Few photosynthetic animals live at or below 50m, with 15m being 'average' for a coral reef, and 30m being the lower depths where corals have really thinned out or are shifting to NPS. Most of the corals we consider to be less demanding actually come from shallow water and are exposed to immense quantities of light, not only raw PAR but total DLI. :)

 

I've read the literature from Dana Riddle's tests and also Tim Wijgerde's published papers - and one thing to note is that the tests used only single colorvery spectrally-narrow LEDs, one of which is far narrower than the other, which is the 660nm deep red Rebel.

 

Rebel%2520and%2520ES%2520color.png

 

I could have told them that if you give 128 or 256 PAR of solely 660nm that the corals would not be all that happy lol. Unfortunately the majority of people that see that post will not read that far, all they see is 'hmm, red light bad, ok' and we get more fixtures like Kessils, which exclude as much as possible above 500nm, which leads to poor rendition of warmer (non-fluorescent) colors.

 

Red light isn't harmful to corals, and neither is green light. The Iwasaki 6500K metal halide is still regarded by many to be the best light for coral growth, and many coral farms still use them today - though many have switched to 100% LED and more are joining them. I haven't had a single one of the ones I've personally designed the lighting for come back and say that they were having issues with coral growth or color, so I will assume that they're keeping on keeping on on the same path as before. :)

 

I'm just going to use flashlights over my tanks now. Nuisance algae ftw!

:huh:

 

I think probability of problem with "near to green" part of spectrum is depend on the ratio of "green" radiation to radiation with shorter wavelength. Luckily, necessary for high visible brightness the quantity of Lime radiation is relatively small and I think in most cases it should not cause any problem :)

Yep, a balanced light is best, not only for growth, but for exhibiting a multitude of colors instead of focusing on one or two.

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recommended Discussions


×
×
  • Create New...