Setting up new 10G tank for a Mandarin Goby fish

[bimbom]

I'm both excited and a bit overwhelmed by this new venture. I spontaneously decided to get into this after seeing the beautiful Mandarin Goby. I've done a lot of reading and understand it's a difficult fish to maintain - luckily the ones at my LFS seem to be eating frozen food, and seeing as I don't plan on having other fish in the tank to compete for food, this takes away a lot of the trouble of having this fish (I think).

 

I have a lot to get out so I'll try to be as clear as possible.

 

1) What I have so far

- 10G Deep Blue Tank

- 10lbs white sand for my substrate

- 3lbs of live rock I got from LFS (planning on adding more)

- Rio Nano Skimmer (HOB filter + skimmer built into one)

- Visi-therm submersible heater 75W

 

about the live rocks:

I have room for much more - can I get cheaper base rock instead? I am close to purchasing this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006D5K5P6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A25DVOZOPBFMAN

 

2) Location

I live in a rather small apartment so there's only two feasible locations. My main issue is that I'm on the 4th floor and my place faces east, so it gets direct sunlight from ~6am to 11am. After 11am I still get sunlight until sunset, but it's not direct. I have white walls so the light bounces around and keeps the place very light. I attached a picture here of my tank's location.

 

I believe because of the sunlight the tank is heating up too much. My ambient air temps range from 76/77 (night time) to 81/82 during the day, though in summer this could be much hotter (85/86).

 

The tank has been around 80F at night, but is reaching 86F during the day! I left this morning at 10am and the tank was at 86F. This is despite the fact I set my heater down to 74F to try to compensate. The heater thermometer and my 2nd thermometer are nowhere near each other.

 

3) Sump tank?

I've been thinking about a sump tank for a few reasons:

- The wooden box my tank sites on is hollow and so I'm already set up for installing something below the tank.

- I'll have more water and thus my temps/salinity shouldn't change as drastically.

- All the equipment will be out of sight and so my display tank will look nicer.

- Evaporation won't be as much of an issue

 

If I do a sump tank, what kind of things would I need. Should I go for a canister filter like the Marineland C-160?

 

Am I on the right track here? My main issue right now is getting stable temps. Then I'd like to get the Goby and perhaps some coral.

 

 

 

[rolyat113]

Have you considered a combination of blinds and light blocking curtains? With your tank having such dramatic temperature swings, I don't think it's going to be very healthy. If you can keep the temperature stable, I would highly suggest getting more rock and focusing on your cycle before even thinking about any living things. Keep in mind I am also a newb and am not a mandarin expert by any means, but have done some reading. Since you have room for a sump, I say go for it. If you want a mandarin, put a nice size refugium in your sump, seed it well, and let the pods population multiply. Your tank will never sustain the amount of pods your fish will require, but it can't hurt. Also, have quite a few different types of food on hand, just in case your fish suddenly rejects whatever you're feeding. I considered making my nana a dragonet tank, but decided I wanted all of the cool inverts and fish one can have. Maybe in the future, in a larger tank, and more experience under my belt.

[bonsaidarrell]

It also looks like you have a full glass cover? If you take that off, it should help with the temperature. You will need to keep up with the evaporation, though.

[metrokat]

Stay on top of your water changes. 10g is rather small for a fish of this bio load. They need to be fed multiple times a day which can compromise water quality.

[bimbom]

It also looks like you have a full glass cover? If you take that off, it should help with the temperature. You will need to keep up with the evaporation, though.

 

Bonsaidarrell you're right that could very well be contributing to the issue. I'm going to keep recording temps for the next few days and then try taking off the top to see if that helps. I'll need a top at some point though won't I? so fish won't jump out! Right now I just have a few lbs of live rock in the tank - I'm guessing that that can take the temp swings I'm having, at least for now?

 

What about drilling little holes in the glass top so I could keep it on but get some heat to come out of it?

 

 

@Rolyat113: That's a good idea, I want to try that as well, but I need to only try one thing at a time so I only change one variable, and see how the temps look.

 

 

I still think I'd like a sump tank but I have no experience in this, wondering how hard it would be to put it together.

[MyLiquidBlue29BC]

I think if you want to keep a mandy in your 10 gallon, you should invest in a sump. I don't have a sump, so I can't help you there. However, here is a starter article for your research:

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/newbie/index.php

 

After you read all the way to the bottom, make sure you read the three part "Additional Reading". Once you have the basic idea, you might want to start a new thread about a sump. That way people with sumps will read it. I popped into this thread because I have a mandy.

 

Also, listen to Metrokat!

[bonsaidarrell]

 

Bonsaidarrell you're right that could very well be contributing to the issue. I'm going to keep recording temps for the next few days and then try taking off the top to see if that helps. I'll need a top at some point though won't I? so fish won't jump out!

I don't think mandarins are know as jumpers, but that is always a risk with an open top tank (though both of mine are open top, and I haven't lost any jumpers). You can make a screen/mesh top, too. Bulk Reef Supply has kits:

 

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/sumps-tanks-refugiums/diy-screen-tops.html

 

Though you can also roll your own from the hardware store.

[bimbom]

I don't think mandarins are know as jumpers, but that is always a risk with an open top tank (though both of mine are open top, and I haven't lost any jumpers). You can make a screen/mesh top, too. Bulk Reef Supply has kits:

 

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/sumps-tanks-refugiums/diy-screen-tops.html

 

Though you can also roll your own from the hardware store.

 

That's a good idea.. what's the reason you have yours open top? Is there any other reason to do it other than better handling temperature swings?

 

 

@MyLiquidBlue29BC

Cool that you have a mandy! Would it be more economical for me to buy a 20 gallon tank, and use my current 10g as a sump? Or the other way around. I will definitely start a new thread if I decide I'm going to do use a sump.

 

 

The temp has been stable for the last 24 hours @ 80F. I haven't changed anything but my ambient room temperature has been 74 F, so I think that's the cause. I'm sure once the ambient goes back up to 78-82, I'll have issues with temperature swings in the tank again. Going to monitor it for a few more days and see.

[smiz]

It will depend what kind of sump you are going for. I just built and drilled my own sump and drilled my tank for a 75g display and 40g sump. It wasn't nearly as hard as everyone made it out to be, but was still quite the task. You could do like a hang on siphon going into your sump but then it will not look as pleasing and also risk the siphon breaking and being really loud.

 

Also Consider putting macro in your display for pod population, Mandarins love macro cause they are full of pods. I just saw a guys 30g dedicated Mandarin tank and it was impressive.

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/331158-tamberavs-devoted-dragonet-tank/

[MyLiquidBlue29BC]

A sump doesn't have to be expensive, especially of you are DIY handy. If you don't do a sump, a 20L (go for the long if you can) would be a lot better than the 10.

 

The tank simz linked to was the inspiration for my hex tank. (The owner of that tank is a "she" not a "he", btw) I'm sure Amber will post in here eventually. Macro is really a must, I think, if you are going to have a mandy.

[bonsaidarrell]

 

That's a good idea.. what's the reason you have yours open top? Is there any other reason to do it other than better handling temperature swings?

 

I just prefer the look. They are also both rimless tanks.

[bimbom]

I just prefer the look. They are also both rimless tanks.

 

I have a lip on mine but I think I will go and build a DIY screen mesh top, because I do think that will help with the temperature issues I'm having.

 

 

I just ordered 10 lbs of base rock. I will wash that off and add it to the tank when I get it. Should I pick up the live rock and place the base rock underneath? I have about 3 lbs live rock in there now.

 

Also I realized that my Rio Nano Skimmer wasn't skimming at all (which is fine because there's nothing to skim right now). I then realized I had to pull up the ventrili tube a bit to get more air in to allow for bubbles to build up in the middle chamber. It is a heck of a lot louder though! I feel like just getting a sump to get the noise below this area would be enough of a benefit. Even with all the noise though, the bubble foam is not going all the way up the skimmer tube - it isn't even halfway up. I've tried adjusting the ventrili tube but can't get it above halfway at all. Is this because I have no protein waste in the tank yet?

[bonsaidarrell]

I have a lip on mine but I think I will go and build a DIY screen mesh top, because I do think that will help with the temperature issues I'm having.

 

 

I just ordered 10 lbs of base rock. I will wash that off and add it to the tank when I get it. Should I pick up the live rock and place the base rock underneath? I have about 3 lbs live rock in there now.

 

Another option would be a top made from some egg crate (lighting diffuser). But will probably need to get a whole 2' x 4', unless you have a reef store that might sell you a small piece.

 

I would just arrange the new rocks the way they look best with the existing rocks, shouldn't really matter where they end up.

[bimbom]

Another option would be a top made from some egg crate (lighting diffuser). But will probably need to get a whole 2' x 4', unless you have a reef store that might sell you a small piece.

 

I would just arrange the new rocks the way they look best with the existing rocks, shouldn't really matter where they end up.

 

 

Something like this?

http://www.eplastics.com/B-EGG-375X2X4?gclid=CMmu0e-jkr0CFUcV7Aod0moAFQ

 

What's the benefit of that vs a mesh built top? I do like the egg crate but I think it would extend above the top of the tank because the lip to the top rim of the tank is probably only 1/8". Not sure if it would look bad or not but worth a try.

[bonsaidarrell]

What's the benefit of that vs a mesh built top?

 

Probably none. The egg crate would be better if you were worried about keeping something out (I used to worry that my cats might try to go for a swim, but they seem completely uninterested).

 

Just another option.

[GoingPostal]

Mandarins get 4 inches and swim all over, a 10 gallon is not enough space for that fish, even ignoring their feeding needs.

[bimbom]

Last night a friend came over. He's someone who has several tanks at his place and has worked at fish stores, and is very knowledgable (he's been doing this for 30+ years), although he admits he's not an expert in saltwater.

 

The first thing he did was put his finger in the water and he said "that's not 80 degrees." I said why not, look at the thermometer it says 80. To get my 2nd thermometer to read this 80, I had my heater set to 73, which seemed to keep the tank at 80.

 

First he completely submerged the heater and said that it can be completely submerged, all the way up to the cord. Then he turned the heater up to 79. I got worried because at 73 it was keeping the tank at 80. He said the 2nd thermometer was cheap and could be off, but he was convinced the temp was not 80 by touching it. Let's also add here he was two glasses of wine in, so I don't know whether to trust his instinct or my cheap thermometer !

 

This morning the thermometer read 83 (with the heater set to 79).

 

Oh also some new measurements because I got new tools (PH meter).

PH: 7.41

S.G: 1.0235 (seems to have gone up a tad due to evaporation, so I added a bit of distilled water).

 

 

Another issue he brought up when I mentioned I wanted to get an egg crate top, was that this would allow particles to seep down into the tank (for example when I'm cooking). He suggested I have a top on.

 

Lastly he said to get the cycle going I could get black mollies because they will adapt to saltwater and help cycle my tank.

 

I trust his knowledge but knowing he's not really a saltwater person , wanted to get opinions from the forum.

[bimbom]

Any thoughts on my last reply?

 

Two of the mollies were floating dead this morning, sadly. The third survived and seems happy.

[evanski]

Two thoughts.

 

Fan will help keep the tank at temp at the expense of increased evaporation. ATO may be close to a necessity.

 

You will absolutely have to train to take prepared food, since pods will not be sufficient is such a small tank, even wile sumped. Heavy feeding reqs and big bio load will require good filtration and significant volume and frequent water changes.

 

I think it is just barely technically possible, but difficult and needed lots of effort.

[MyLiquidBlue29BC]

Any thoughts on my last reply?

 

Two of the mollies were floating dead this morning, sadly. The third survived and seems happy.

My guess is that your tank is not cycled and you have had an ammonia spike. Did you buy the mollies already acclamated to salt water?

 

You should test your ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites and post the results.

[bimbom]

My guess is that your tank is not cycled and you have had an ammonia spike. Did you buy the mollies already acclamated to salt water?

 

You should test your ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites and post the results.

 

No they were from a freshwater tank with a bit of salt in it (not much). I first put the bag they came in in my tank to acclimate the water temps, about 30 minutes. Then I removed a little more than half of the bag water and added my tank saltwater to the bag. Then I let that sit in the bag inside the tank for about an hour and half. Then I put them in the tank. They seemed fine and I stayed up watching them for a few hours.

 

Before I went to bed I pulled the plug on the Rio Nano Skimmer/Filter to feed them a little pinch of flakes. Then I plugged it back in and went to bed, but in the morning realized the filter was not on. It was because the reservoir didn't have enough water to started sucking and get the filter going. I fixed it right away but was wondering if this alone could have caused the 2 to perish.

 

 

I'm waiting on my ammonia/nitrate/nitrite test strips , they are coming tomorrow.

 

The temps I have stable at 79/80 although I believe I will get a fan - maybe I can build it into a custom lid. I wouldn't mind leaving the top off or using eggcrate, but I am worried about a lot of evaporation + particles from cooking to fall through into the tank.

[bimbom]

Also, isn't 7.41 PH low for my tank? Will this go up through the cycle or do I have to add something?

 

Should I be seeing algae growing on the rocks or other signs?

[evanski]

Gotta be honest with you...you are asking a lot of SW beginner questions. Given the high degree of difficulty of task you are proposing with a brand new tank, I would advise you to take a break from any consideration of a Mandarin in your tank.

 

Get it up and running, get some coral in and growing, and pick a small fish and demonstrate that you can keep fish/coral alive and thriving with stable params before you go anywhere near a Mandy.

 

Think one year, no crashes and demonstrated stability. Anything else is reckless in my opinion...and I am pretty sure I will not be alone with some of the veteran reefers here.

[bimbom]

Gotta be honest with you...you are asking a lot of SW beginner questions. Given the high degree of difficulty of task you are proposing with a brand new tank, I would advise you to take a break from any consideration of a Mandarin in your tank.

 

Get it up and running, get some coral in and growing, and pick a small fish and demonstrate that you can keep fish/coral alive and thriving with stable params before you go anywhere near a Mandy.

 

Think one year, no crashes and demonstrated stability. Anything else is reckless in my opinion...and I am pretty sure I will not be alone with some of the veteran reefers here.

 

evanski, I totally agree with you, and I am holding off on that fish. I would love some guidance on how I can get stability to my tank - I am trying to get the parameters right and know what to look for. Some of the fish I've been looking at it say PH level of 8.1-8.4, thus I'm wondering about my tank's low PH.

[evanski]

evanski, I totally agree with you, and I am holding off on that fish. I would love some guidance on how I can get stability to my tank - I am trying to get the parameters right and know what to look for. Some of the fish I've been looking at it say PH level of 8.1-8.4, thus I'm wondering about my tank's low PH.

 

OK, fair enough. Unlike many other new to the forum, at least you are listening after you started asking questions.

 

Wouldn't worry so much about the pH right now. You need to get the tank cycled first, then water changes and chemistry balance should balance out the pH. Don't add buffer...it is easy to imbalance the chemistry chasing a number. Just watch ammonia, nitrite and nitrates to monitor the process.

 

My choice of cycling is just to add live rock, sand, and perhaps a little food to serve as a C and N source. You can use pure ammonia as well. Not a big fan of using fish...personal choice.

 

Good luck, and keep us posted.