Hanna Ultra Low Phosphorus ppb Checker

[seabass]

I sill believe that a phosphate level of 0.03ppm is a good target. A little lower level shouldn't be a problem, but 0.00ppm shouldn't be your goal.

[Arkayology]

There are some threads discussion this subject on RC recently:

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366953

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346279

 

I don't think that anyone is saying we should keep our tanks dirty, but sort of rethinking how beneficial very low nutrient levels are. I think that .03 phosphates and <5ppm nitrates is a good spot still, but I am uncertain about the accuracy of our test kits to accurately get us at that level safely and long-term. JMO though.

[seabass]

Markalot and I just had a relevant discussion in another thread (which includes an interesting study). I'd link the study, but I'm afraid people would ignore the rest of the conversation.

[PODPIMP]

There are some threads discussion this subject on RC recently:

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366953

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346279

 

I don't think that anyone is saying we should keep our tanks dirty, but sort of rethinking how beneficial very low nutrient levels are. I think that .03 phosphates and <5ppm nitrates is a good spot still, but I am uncertain about the accuracy of our test kits to accurately get us at that level safely and long-term. JMO though.

 

These threads are so misleading. I can see quite a few guys killing a bunch of stuff because they think a dirty SPS tank is ok. While you can certainly have high po4 and no3 and keep things growing and colorful, it MUST be coupled with a very bright photoperiod. All these successful high nutrient tanks have this one thing in common. Without very bright light, po4 will inhibit calcification and eventually cause death. Yet another variation to the nutrient/lighting balance.

[Arkayology]

These threads are so misleading. I can see quite a few guys killing a bunch of stuff because they think a dirty SPS tank is ok. While you can certainly have high po4 and no3 and keep things growing and colorful, it MUST be coupled with a very bright photoperiod. All these successful high nutrient tanks have this one thing in common. Without very bright light, po4 will inhibit calcification and eventually cause death. Yet another variation to the nutrient/lighting balance.

That's why I said that nobody is arguing that high nutrients are what we should be shooting for. My take away from these discussions, and others, is that the idea of the ULNS system is not the only or necessarily the best way to keep SPS. I have had much better success keeping my tank "dirtier" than I ever did with carbon dosing, adding bacteria, and checking my phosphates twice a day.

 

I think that a common trend nowadays, and something that has been around for awhile now, is that you should have *some* nutrients in the water, and that you need to find a balance of nutrients in = nutrients out.

[drfu]

Great debate guys & gals, some good opinions and practices didnt think my post would create such a thread. I did a 30% wc this am, just did a test and my chem looks like this:

 

Sg1.025' temp 79.2, ph 8.0.

 

No detectable nitrites, ammonia, copper.

 

Nitrates between 2.5-5, Salifert is not much easier to see color changes, is more accurate.

Alk 12, Ca 530.

 

Phosphorus @ 21 ppb or .06 phosphates in ppm.

 

Feel this is almost there after a 2 week cycle, will not do another wc for at least 5-6 days to see if either phosphate or nitrate levels rise, if not then a fish will go in, thought i haven't pick out what it will be. Maybe a ywg/shrimp pair or tail spot blenny?

[Rollermonkey]

Did you read the article? Some of the reefs were thriving with the problems, some were algal forests. The ultimate conclusion of the article was that ultra-low phosphates by itself may not be the panacea that people are making it out to be, because some reefs do thrive with much higher than average phosphate levels and that other contributing factors may be as important or more so than phosphate levels alone.

 

This is about the only thing I have time to read through, so it was somewhere in the past few months of http://www.coralmagazine.com

 

 

Also as far as the whole repairing and extending the sewer and removing rusty military equipment and the water quality improving.... duh. Take a dump in your tank and throw some match box cars in for good measure and see how it responds, then be amazed when it gets better after you remove those things.

[drfu]

Well its been a couple of weeks since i got the phosphorus checker, my oldest tank(3 months) is down to 10ppb or .03 phosphates so that makes me happy anyways! My new build which is only a month old is still around 25 ppb or .08 ppm is still a bit high but its new and i have been overfeeding my new hi fin goby/pistol shrimp pair as they have been skittish and hiding but they are now coming around so after another water change we shall see what happens.

[rootbeerrain]

Yep, that's the best one to get. You don't have to do math, you just have to know what levels are acceptable:

It's easy, all you need to know is that you should target phosphorus at 10ppb (or less); anything higher than that you need to bring it down.

sweet! do you know where to find more charts like this?

[GlassHouse]

I don't understand why people are still going out of their way to buy the phosphorous checker (that reads phosphorous in 420 growth friendly PPB) and the phosphate checker which simply reads it in (reef friendly) ppm. They both have the same accuracy.

 

 

Here's another article about phosphates from Rich Ross, who keeps his at 1.24. http://www.reefs.com/magazine/159813-skeptical-reefkeeping-ix-test-kits-chasing-numbers-phosphate.html

[seabass]

I don't understand why people are still going out of their way to buy the phosphorous checker (that reads phosphorous in 420 growth friendly PPB) and the phosphate checker which simply reads it in (reef friendly) ppm. They both have the same accuracy.

Actually the two aren't that close to having the same accuracy (or resolution).

Phosphorus Checker:

Resolution: 1 ppb phosphorus (times 0.003066 to convert), which is about 0.003 ppm phosphate

Accuracy: ± 5 ppb phosphorus (times 0.003066 to convert), which is about ± 0.015 ppm phosphate

vs

Phosphate Checker:

Resolution: 0.010 ppm phosphate

Accuracy: ± 0.040 ppm phosphate

It's not really that inconvenient once you realize that you are just shooting for 10 ppb of phosphorus.

[drfu]

Actually the two aren't that close to having the same accuracy (or resolution).

Phosphorus Checker:

Resolution: 1 ppb phosphorus (times 0.003066 to convert), which is about

0.003 ppm phosphate

Accuracy: ± 5 ppb phosphorus (times 0.003066 to convert), which is about

± 0

.015 ppm phosphate

vs

Phosphate Checker:

Resolution:

0.010 ppm phosphate

Accuracy:

± 0.040 ppm phosphate

It's not really that inconvenient once you realize that you are just shooting for 10 ppb of phosphorus.

 

I just bought the low range as it was the same price, knowing what phosphorus & phosphate levels both are turned into a bonus. Compaired to my API i had before, its awesome imo! Plus the chart seabass posted is quite easy!

[GlassHouse]

Actually the two aren't that close to having the same accuracy (or resolution).

 

 

Phosphorus Checker:

Resolution: 1 ppb phosphorus (times 0.003066 to convert), which is about 0.003 ppm phosphate

Accuracy: ± 5 ppb phosphorus (times 0.003066 to convert), which is about ± 0.015 ppm phosphate

vs

Phosphate Checker:

Resolution: 0.010 ppm phosphate

Accuracy: ± 0.040 ppm phosphate

It's not really that inconvenient once you realize that you are just shooting for 10 ppb of phosphorus.

 

 

Nope.

 

Hanna Ultra-Low Range Phosphorous Checker: "±5% of reading accuracy"

Hanna Low Range Phosphate Checker: "±4% of reading accuracy"

 

The Phosphate Checker is actually more accurate on paper. Regardless, they both use the same testing method and components, they just spit back the numbers in different formats. If I add a few decimal places when I report my results, it doesn't make the results more accurate if I'm using the same methods and equipment.

[drfu]

Well I just got my nitrate spike down after two water changes of 20% per day after the last 5 days. Trates are now @ 2.5ppm. I checked my phosphorous levels and to my suprise they were still @ 34 ppb or .1 ppm of phosphate!

 

Im not sure where the leaching of phosphates could be coming from. The nitrate spike came from me moving a powerhead, blew up all the detritus on the sandbed causing a big rise in levels, before the spike my phosphorous levels were @ 12 ppb, now they are sky high!

 

If i were to guess could it be the Seachem Phosgard puting it back in the water column?

 

Could it be still some detritus leaching back as not all of it got blown all over the place?

 

Could it just be coming from the substrate or live rock as the tank less than 4 months old?

 

Advice?

[seabass]

Some people would say that 0.10 ppm of phosphate is alright. Still, I'd consider that higher than ideal. The results of these checkers tend to vary (if the reagent isn't fully dissolved, particles in the water, air bubbles, smudges on the vial, etc). I'd do another test to try to confirm these results. If it still tests high, I suspect that it might be from the disruption of the sand bed.

 

You mention Phosguard; if the level is higher than you want it, it's time to put in a new batch of Phosguard. Remember, the goal isn't undetectable phosphate. You might want it at 0.03 ppm (10 ppb of phosphorous), or your target might be twice that value. Try not to get too aggressive when bringing down the level, as sudden drops can also affect coral (although it's usually temporary and the coral usually recovers).

[drfu]

I don't understand why people are still going out of their way to buy the phosphorous checker (that reads phosphorous in 420 growth friendly PPB) and the phosphate checker which simply reads it in (reef friendly) ppm. They both have the same accuracy.Here's another article about phosphates from Rich Ross, who keeps his at 1.24. http://www.reefs.com/magazine/159813-skeptical-reefkeeping-ix-test-kits-chasing-numbers-phosphate.html'>http://www.reefs.com/magazine/159813-skeptical-reefkeeping-ix-test-kits-chasing-numbers-phosphate.html

 

Great read, thanks. It does sum up one thing imo, my human error in testing and tweaking of parameters could be more detrimental that the underlying issue of phosphates to start with! I have spent a bit of $ on test equipment, reagents, time, etc to get to the magic #, i think i would and should be happy with a range that I'm comfortable with!

 

To back this up i have just found out that my Salifert kit is useless for checking PH, its been reading 7-8-8.0, depending on time of day of course so i have been using an additive to try to bring it up. I have been doing half doses & half as often as i don't like dosing with anything now. I tested my water using an old API kit i had & came up with different results, 8.2-8.4. Which is right, who knows? Should i worry about my Ph, prob not but i do want to keep it in the 8-.0-8.4 range anyways. So this now makes me think i need a better test like a meter vs color kit, again spending more $ thus making my point above.

 

Now with that said, I'm still going to try to get it down but with minimal media & mostly water changes. Im also still considering a meter for Ph just to make sure I'm in the ranges i want to be in, any recommendations on a meter? I don't care about constant monitoring, just something fairly accurate and not color based?

[seabass]

If your alkalinity is within normal ranges, and you are not dosing anything that affects pH, I wouldn't even worry about testing pH. Especially if you have a skimmer (which facilitates gas exchange) and don't have a CO2 problem.

[drfu]

Some people would say that 0.10 ppm of phosphate is alright. Still, I'd consider that higher than ideal. The results of these checkers tend to vary (if the reagent isn't fully dissolved, particles in the water, air bubbles, smudges on the vial, etc). I'd do another test to try to confirm these results. If it still tests high, I suspect that it might be from the disruption of the sand bed.

You mention Phosguard; if the level is higher than you want it, it's time to put in a new batch of Phosguard. Remember, the goal isn't undetectable phosphate. You might want it at 0.03 ppm (10 ppb of phosphorous), or your target might be twice that value. Try not to get too aggressive when bringing down the level, as sudden drops can also affect coral (although it's usually temporary and the coral usually recovers).

 

Tested this am, 35 ppb. I don't remember when i added the phosgard but it could have been a month ago so i will try that. I will add a new bag @ my next water change and go from there, thx

[drfu]

If your alkalinity is within normal ranges, and you are not dosing anything that affects pH, I wouldn't even worry about testing pH. Especially if you have a skimmer (which facilitates gas exchange) and don't have a CO2 problem.

 

No skimmer, was dosing with aquavitro 8.4 which might have been a mistake, api says im somewhere between 8.0-8.4, salifert says 8.0. Im gonna stop dosing altogether. alk is 196 so good there

[rootbeerrain]

That doesn't make any sense.

 

You're leaving out precision as part of accuracy. Moving the decimal does matter.

 

If I have 2 graduated cylinders. One is a liter, the other is 10ml. They both have +-5% error(as you say accuracy)

 

If im measuring out 5ml of liquid, the 10ml graduate is going to be more precise than the liter graduate, and more accurate. Even though the error is the same, the decimals do make a difference.

 

The error of the 10ml graduate is +-.5ml while the error of the liter graduate is +-50ml.

 

snap! she (maybe he i guess) wins.

[drfu]

Well my levels seem to still be steady around 35-40 ppb of phosphorus or .12 ppm of phosphate! Did some testing and the RO water i get from my water store tests @ .15ppb of phosphorus and when i mix my salt it tests around .20 ppb so that may have everything to do with it. I have rinsed out all of my containers tonight, i have to pick up some more RO water in the next couple of days so i will stop in and ask them about this. I get my water from their vending machine and never gone in to the store.

 

I use Instant Ocean Reef Crystals, has anyone had a phosphorus/phosphate issue with this brand?

[seabass]

RO water vending machines aren't usually the best source of water. First, it's only RO water (not RO/DI), so it's not pure. Distilled water would be a better choice if you are buying water from a grocery store. It might be time that you pony up for your own RO/DI unit. Secondly, those vending machines aren't always maintained properly (not always sanitized during filter changes, and/or have filters which should be changed).

 

As for Reef Crystals, it should be pretty low in phosphate. The checker can be affected by particles (or cloudiness in the water), so a freshly mixed batch could be giving you an inaccurate phosphorous reading.

[drfu]

RO water vending machines aren't usually the best source of water. First, it's only RO water (not RO/DI), so it's not pure. Distilled water would be a better choice if you are buying water from a grocery store. It might be time that you pony up for your own RO/DI unit. Secondly, those vending machines aren't always maintained properly (not always sanitized during filter changes, and/or have filters which should be changed).

As for Reef Crystals, it should be pretty low in phosphate. The checker can be affected by particles (or cloudiness in the water), so a freshly mixed batch could be giving you an inaccurate phosphorous reading.

 

Good tips, i wish i had the budget for one of my own! I never had a problem when i used conditioned tap water, may have to check my water for phosphates to see what its at as my city has great water. Yes i did check it after just making it 24 hours earlier, will do another test as well i tested my water 1 hour after my change.

[drfu]

Some people would say that 0.10 ppm of phosphate is alright. Still, I'd consider that higher than ideal. The results of these checkers tend to vary (if the reagent isn't fully dissolved, particles in the water, air bubbles, smudges on the vial, etc). I'd do another test to try to confirm these results. If it still tests high, I suspect that it might be from the disruption of the sand bed.

You mention Phosguard; if the level is higher than you want it, it's time to put in a new batch of Phosguard. Remember, the goal isn't undetectable phosphate. You might want it at 0.03 ppm (10 ppb of phosphorous), or your target might be twice that value. Try not to get too aggressive when bringing down the level, as sudden drops can also affect coral (although it's usually temporary and the coral usually recovers).

 

Well after a 6 month long battle with all of the different media and choices i have come down to two conclusions, first phosphate media that you put into a bag doesn't fix a high phosphate tank & second is get a media reactor & skimmer.

 

I have purchased a Spectrapure RO/DI CSPDI90MF, getting 0 tds water! Next, i got a skimmer that is affordable the Tunze 9001 & third is i got the Two Little Fishes 150 media reactor & GFO. My levels dropped from an average reading of 35 ppb down to 10 ppb, finally!

 

Have noticed that its going back up after only a week so I'm thinking that its time to replace the GFO in it. I am also thinking that my live sand/rock is leaching the phosphate back into my water column so i might have to run the reactor full time with gfo.

 

Will replace with a new batch of gfo this weekend when doing a water change as my reading yesterday was back up to 15 ppb.

 

I am also not sure about this skimmer, seems to fill up pretty quick with water/foam, have lots of micro bubbles still so it might go.

 

 

[Sailfish]

Anyone got any thoughts for the new Hanna Checker Phosphate Low Range HI713?

Is the Phosphorus ULR HI736 still the best, for our hobby?

I thought that I read somewhere that corals are not affected by free phosphorus, only by the phosphate. Will it not then be better to test for phosphate, now that Hanna offers a low range version of their phosphate checker?