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Nitrate Factory


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Yes, true, there are other users of nitrate. However, as can be seen in many poorly maintained aquaria these other users are often not effective in coping with the nitrate increase. This may be due to insufficient numbers of these nitrate assimilating organisms and/or their biological processes are not operating at full potential.

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why not use a better amm test kit for this much work>

 

cant wait to see some of your results either way, Im of the camp that live rock denitrification doesnt occur to any repeatable or appreciable rate in our tanks or nobody would be using vsv, biopellets, things that work etc. I agree denitrification happens in marine sediments and in our tank, just not to any useful degree from our lr. cant wait to see some results. it would actually be better to use more than one ammonia test kit, post up the actual results so we can see the colors. this also addresses api ammonia test kit concerns by comparison, a twofer lol.

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why not use a better amm test kit for this much work>

 

cant wait to see some of your results either way, Im of the camp that live rock denitrification doesnt occur to any repeatable or appreciable rate in our tanks or nobody would be using vsv, biopellets, things that work etc. I agree denitrification happens in marine sediments and in our tank, just not to any useful degree

 

I'm in the other camp that believes that a properly maintained substrate is the main player in processing nitrates :). IMO, people are having to resort to VSV, Biopellets and such in order to combat the relative ineffectiveness of their degraded substrates which can no longer effectively deal with nitrate (assuming that they have enough substrate to begin with). I see this especially in larger tanks with infrequent WCs/substrate vacuuming and a good amount of large LR structure that the owners don't/can't dismantle to get at accumulated detritus.

 

Results will be interesting, for sure!

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Yes, true, there are other users of nitrate. However, as can be seen in many poorly maintained aquaria these other users are often not effective in coping with the nitrate increase. This may be due to insufficient numbers of these nitrate assimilating organisms and/or their biological processes are not operating at full potential.

 

In poorly maintained systems, everything will be ineffective. Just as in aquaria with good husbandry, anyone of the processes will do the job by itself. My oldest setup at 12 years has never had a water change. A 75G Jaubert plenum with 6" bed of CaribSea Florida Crushed Coral on top with a 30G mud/macro filter on bottom. However, I have found that a simple lagoon tank with 1" of crushed coral and macro filtration to be as effective as any of the new stuff used in the hobby today. In fact, that will be Phase 2 of this test study. I will set up three 10G tanks in my renovated bedroom/tank room and conduct long term test study. One of the three lagoon tanks will have SPS to prove a point that it does not require high tech to grow SPS.

Patrick

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why not use a better amm test kit for this much work>

 

cant wait to see some of your results either way, Im of the camp that live rock denitrification doesnt occur to any repeatable or appreciable rate in our tanks or nobody would be using vsv, biopellets, things that work etc. I agree denitrification happens in marine sediments and in our tank, just not to any useful degree from our lr. cant wait to see some results. it would actually be better to use more than one ammonia test kit, post up the actual results so we can see the colors. this also addresses api ammonia test kit concerns by comparison, a twofer lol.

I am not interested in the exact number for ammonia concentration. Only that I can track the rise and fall of ammonia. The effectiveness of the biofiltration is determined by the nitrate concentration. For that purpose, I have chosen to use Pinpoint Nitrate Monitor. For quality control, I have selected Ward Labs to perform scientific laboratory grade nitrate test periodically to back up my test instrument, which is calibrated each time that I use it.

 

 

Sorry, I do not intend to allow people posting to interpret/change my testing procedures.

Laissez la bonne tems roulee,

Patrick

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what do you mean by the last sentence...asking for a pic of the test tube reading? thats all I was saying, it would be neat to see what the zero looks like. but I see your goal is nitrate.



Im interested if either the live rock or the substrate in any combo effectively reduces nitrate.

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Each tank has only one media. The control tank has nothing in it but water. Effective means different things to different people. The qualitative numbers will speak for themselves. A qualitative amount of ammonia will be tabulated for each tank. The nitrate concentration will also be a qualitative number. Some of the processes may take different time frames to establish themselves.

 

With respect to taking pictures of test vils of ammonia, I will be performing hundreds of test, approaching 1000. I also operate over 10,000 gallons of differrent systems. I am also planting my Spring garden. I am quite busy. I noticed that you live in Texas. Come visit me and take all the pictures that you want.

Patrick Castille

Mgr, Aquaculture Ranch

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Branden,

 

Where in Texas do you live? You have some interesting comments on your profile.

 

At 65 years old, having spent four combat tours in Vietnam and Cambodia dealing with Khmer Rouge, I may be a little crusty. I do not want this thread to take on competing arguments on what does not work. From my respective, after more than 40 years of reefkeeping, I have found that many things work very well. My attitude to that is, "It works for me, I am glad that yours works for you". This phase of the test will be completed in less than three months. In May, a long term test using both photosynthetic biofiltration and bacteria biofiltration will be started. Further information on this will be discussed as the thread progresses. Please contribute knowledge and information at your discretion.

Laissez la bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

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If I could summarize my entire contribution so far, it would be:

 

Someone is taking a controlled step at finding out which substrates denitrify and which ones don't, pretty cool. We are taking exhaustive measures especially with costly testing, apparently hundreds of times over, not much methodology has been applied to isolating denitrifying substrates on forums so this should be good. You mentioned using API and getting a zero reading, that intrigued me. Nbd. We clarified ammonia readings werent the critical focus.

 

 

so far all I read upon back inspection is some trading of predictions about what might go down, good discussion. Can't wait to see how well live rock performs, predictions are a great part of posts w be good to see what the data shows

 

If there's no room for that line of discussion or any thoughts outside of test prep, then I guess we can wait some weeks for some data and consider it then.

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This is my crowded exterior south porch that I have winterized. The eight 10G tanks for the biofiltration test study are lined up on the right side. Also in the picture are three 150G Rubbermaid tanks, two for macro growout and one with 200 lbs of live rock for sale. Against the far wall is salvaged automobile sound system that can break eardrums. It includes battery bank with inverter as automatic UPS with WiFi for Internet communication.

 

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This is the first tank set up when I moved into this house 5 years ago. It is now used as a tumble culture for macro growout, Gracilaria Hayi. This 75G tank drains to an extnded sump of three 150G Rubbermaid tanks that are buried in the ground using natural sunlight for pod and macro growout. In the left corner is 1000W MH growing tomatoes, blackberries and strawberries.

 

Now you know a little bit more about me.

Patrick

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I see speakers, aquaculture in many tanks, if you might throw in a remote control airplane workstation I'd call that one heck of a complete science station ~ very nice :)

 

Thats a heck of an aquaculture station I could not resist the temptation to try and raise crystal red shrimp in there. That is neat to see thanks for posting the pic update

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If I could summarize my entire contribution so far, it would be:

Someone is taking a controlled step at finding out which substrates denitrify and which ones don't, pretty cool. We are taking exhaustive measures especially with costly testing, apparently hundreds of times over, not much methodology has been applied to isolating denitrifying substrates on forums so this should be good. You mentioned using API and getting a zero reading, that intrigued me. Nbd. We clarified ammonia readings werent the critical focus.

so far all I read upon back inspection is some trading of predictions about what might go down, good discussion. Can't wait to see how well live rock performs, predictions are a great part of posts w be good to see what the data shows

If there's no room for that line of discussion or any thoughts outside of test prep, then I guess we can wait some weeks for some data and consider it then.

 

I do not mind thoughts and discussions that are respectful of others views. We can agree to disagree. Many opinions are nothing more than popularity contest of vocal individuals that read a little bit of info on the Internet and post a lot. I for one have two engineering degrees with consulting waste water certifications. I know my shit. I have been reefing for 44 years and I have storage bins full of equipment that I have gone through. In reading John Tullock's book, the Natural Reef Aquarium as a PhD in marine biology he galvanized my prospective on how to make it work, less technology/more biology. From my point of view, equipment and gadgets do not make an accomplished reefkeeper. They are the trademark of techies. I live in Austin. It is full of techies. I find it amusing to see several $1000 dollars on 29G biocube that I could operate for less than $300. As I said in an earlier post, it works for me. It is your money, spend it where you want. While my focus is not on the tank of the month contest, my natural systems do have some algae in them. However, as of two months ago, due to first ich infestation in 9 years, I installed a 40W UV sterilizer on my 75G Jaubert Plenum tank. I will use the tired quote that I often her on forums, my tank has never looked better.

I will use Eric Boreman's quote, "when people tell you, there way is the best/only way, run from them". On that note, I open the discussion.

Laissez la bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

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I think this is topical.

I am thinking of adding 4 sheets of 1x8x8 ceramic material under my shallow sand bed in my 50 gallon cube, 24x24" base dimensions.http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=27933]http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=27933[/url]Screenshot_2014-02-18-00-41-20.jpg

My rock is 50 pounds of ReefCleaners dry rock. This rock has large voids within its structure, like swiss cheeze. Which will fill with a notable volume of hypoxic water.

So Im wondering if the ceramic sheets will work like a Jaubert Plenum, but one that can't be disturbed(by tank inhabitants or my own interventions). I will be putting 60 pounds of CaribSea aragonite on top of it, so an inch and a half to two inches thick/deep.

What are your thoughts on this for additional volume of hypoxic water to grow additional anaerobic de-nitrifying bacteria.

In the long term, I would be concerned about bio films plugging it up. As I understand the ceramic media, you would be better served using it in your sump without covering it up.

I have read what the scientist say about the plenum. There are conflicting thoughts on the the purpose for it. The most informative discussion on the plenum is Delbrick & Sprung's The Reef Aquarium Volume 3: Science, Art, and Technology. Because of the extended time required to set up the dynamics, it is difficult to quantify the benefits. The authors observed the process for 20 years before giving it the thumbs up. Chapter 6 under filtration is dedicated to discussing it. Mine has been set up and undisturbed for 12 years. With my recent switch to lagoon bio tropes using 1" of crushed coral and macro filtration, I doubt that I would set up another Jaubert Plenum system. If your desire was to support sponges and NPS, use a mud/macro refugium with the ceramic blocks in the last chamber before water goes to the pump. In the first chamber allow unfiltered tank water to fall on bioballs. Detritus is broken up and settles in the organic soup of the mud filter crawling with worms. I bought the mud/macro filter used and have never added anything to it. In the twelve years that I have had it, it has gotten slightly deeper and is spongy to the touch. No protein skimmers and no water change in 12 years.

 

You asked for pictures and I have received some tutoring on that process. These first ones will be with my iPad. Better pictures will come when I learn the process with my Cannon G12.

Laissez la bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

 

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A discussion from the owner of the smallest tank* on NR with the owner of the largest tank+ on NR,,, interesting.

(* First real successful marine reef picos)

(+I think one could do laps in his largest tank).

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This is the Big Tank at 5K with max capacity at 7000 gallons. The picture was taken during 105 degree summer days with water jets enhancing evaporative cooling to below 80 degrees. I use this tank to cool the rest of my extended systems which are predominately 150G Rubbermaid tanks. The big tank is 20' by 12' by 4' deep. The greenhouse over it is 20' by 40' with a 65% shade cloth. The intense summer sun is still too high for my needs as PAR values exceed 800. Due to extreme flooding in Sept and October with more than 30" of rain on five occasions, I am unable to insure my product line. This stopped me from enclosing it and using it in the winter. My present plan is to operate it from May thru October with a 50% light transmission 6mil poly film and a 65% shade cloth. It is for that reason that my south porch system is at 1000G capacity and my inside tanks total close to 1000G.

 

Enjoy the day. I will be working with the earth in my Spring garden.l

Patrick

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The article is complete. No need to look for the book.

 

In the last year, with introduction of Sea Apples I have feed heavily with a resulting cynobacteria plague in my 75G Jaubert Plenum tank. Aggressive substrate vacuuming was required. This addressed both the symptom and the root cause as phosphate was bound up in the substrate. As a proactive procedure, I dosed with calcium nitrate to promote accelerated macro growth and harvesting. Considering phosphate uptake by macro algae, I nutrient export as compost for my tomatoes or as product for macro sales. I am switching my dosing regime to an agriculture kelp concentrate which has every trace element but phosphate and iodine.

 

While I do not recommend zero water change for average hobbiest, with 10K gallon systems, the economics are obvious.

Patrick

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what great reading while Im at work very very nice~ look at that coralline aging on your substrate, nice darker base colors instead of typical white sand offset corals nicely

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Thanks for your thoughts, Patrick.

I have that book somewhere, I'll look for it.

I was reading this Sprung article a week or so ago..http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/aafeature'>http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/aafeature

I didn't want to go with the plenum described, as I dont think its designed to hold 50 pounds of live rock over it for years.

Anyway, im pretty sure that there is plenty of void space in ReefCleaner rock for hypoxic water zones for a tank this small.

ReefCleaners Swiss Cheese Deli Sliced RockScreenshot_2014-02-18-07-35-57-1.jpgScreenshot_2014-02-18-07-35-45-1-1.png

 

Don't eat the cheese, it is moon rock.

Your rock looks outstanding. One of the freebies to ARC members was allowing their rock to cycle in my high nutrient systems. Because of so much unused room in my system, one member brought 400 lbs of rock that looked like what you have laid out. When he picked it up this past week end, the large Tigger Pods were crawling all over his arms.

Laissez la bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

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At present, testing for ammo is twice a day in all eight study tanks. Initial ammonia dosage was 4ml with the highest concentrations observed at 3 ppm. When concentration is less than 1 ppm a 2ml dose is added. This 2ml dose every 12 hours is maintaining between 1-3 ppm ammonia. These colors are easily distinguished on API test kits.

 

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For what it's worth, a few of my thoughts on the subject.

 

In recent years the notion that denitrification occurs only in slow flow, anoxic regions has been refuted. Nitrification/denitrification occurs efficiently in any location where aerobic and anerobic conditions occur in close proximity. A good example is a relatively shallow, relatively 'clean' aragonite sand bed where the sand grain's micro pores allow anerobic bacteria to reside in very close proximity to aerobic ones.

 

Live rock rubble can initially be quite effective at this task due to it's large surface area and capacity to harbor aerobic and anerobic micro sites, but at issue is the fact that it clogs easily with detritus due to settling and advection. Once this happens, the nitrification/denitrification process becomes severely impeded due to lack of flow into the rubble's interior spaces and as a result nitrates build up in the water column.

Nano,

As in most things, it is to what degree is the contribution. I would be interested in further informations that qualifies more in depth what you have pointed out. As it is dynamic, I am fairly sure that the contribution of nitrogen processing by the two separate bacteria processes of nitrification and de-nitrification in close proximity of each other can not be quantified easily. If certain habitats can promote this, it would be good to know.

 

As a practicing reefkeeper, I promote nitrate processing wherever I can get it. For certain, live rock has been lifted to a very high level of importance in this hobby. IMO, it is overpriced and overrated as a biofiltration media. I do use diver collected, uncured live rock from the GOM for biodiversity.

More than ten years ago, three PhD scientist conducted a test of biofiltration efficiencies: Rob Toonen, Ron Schmick and Bob Goemans. While all methods processed nitrate effectively, I was shocked to see no room left in the tank with live rock. IMO, substrate was the winner for that reason. So little tank volume produced so much surface area. I see too many post on threads where hobiest are getting rid of old live rock and old substrate. This agrees with your point that lack of husbandry destroys the effectiveness of these media. For me, I stack the deck in my favor with janitors that reproduce in my systems: bristle worms, Drawf Cerith Snails, Micro Stars, along with the pod brothers: amphi and copo. Not only do they keep the sand bed functioning, they feed the inhabitants of the tank with their spores. For me, the micro flora and fauna at the bottom of the food chain establish the long term health of any ecosystem.

 

As a grandfather, one of my biggest joys is to explore my refugium with my 6 year old grandson. With lighted magnifying glasses, we lay on our stomachs and explore their world. In 44 years of reefkeeping, I have not lost my appreciation for the complexity & beauty of this marvelous hobby. In the mid 1970's, Martin Moe with a PhD in Marine Biolgy said it eloquently about the hobby, "It is not rocket science, it is more complicated".

Laissez la bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

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After five days, ammonia is being processed efficiently in all eight tanks, including control tank. I have upped the ammonia dosage from 2ml twice a day to 4ml twice a day.

All tanks are beginning to show nitrates and all eight tanks are processing nitrates. This includes control tank with nothing in it but water.

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This is exactly why I just now started running Purigen in my 3 year old nano. Even with re-sanding, and increased water flow, my LR is starting to hit the wall when it comes to its ability to filter the water column completely. But I'm not worried, because when you understand how things like this work, you know how to fix them.

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hey by processing do you mean degassing it, in the control tank> edit, I think you mean you are detecting nitrate ergo nitrification is running.

I do not think that denitrification (degassing) is processing nitrate in the control tank. This is the purpose of the control tank, to remove unknown processes from the study. I suspect some photosynthetic activity with phytoplankton organisms. I also suspect iron bacteria. Ward laboratories is conducting an eight day incubation test for iron bacteria at this time.

Patrick

 

This is exactly why I just now started running Purigen in my 3 year old nano. Even with re-sanding, and increased water flow, my LR is starting to hit the wall when it comes to its ability to filter the water column completely. But I'm not worried, because when you understand how things like this work, you know how to fix them.

I have not kept up with new products in this area. Please explain Purigen and how it processes nitrate.

Patrick

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Branden,

I said precisely what I meant to say. Nitrate is processed in many ways within the tank. Technically, denitrification is degassing. I mentioned two other ways in which nitrate is processed in the tank but not exported. Perhaps I should have said recycled.

Patrick

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