Polarcollision's Nuvo 24: March FTS

[vlangel]

This is very interesting to me. What do you see in terms of nitrates and phosphates, oh, and little buggers like diatoms, cyano, dino's?

 

No change whatsoever. My tank has had very little diatoms or cyano and has never had dino's. That's interesting because although my nitrates are almost undetectable my phosphates have always been high, (because 'gasp' I use straight tap water and always have). I only recently as in the last 2 months started using a phosphate sponge media to reduce them. Even at that the best I get are .5ppm but I have never had a nuisance algae problem. Now with the macro/seahorse tank connected to the reef system, no doubt the flourishing macros and softies are utilizing some of that as food too along with the clam. My sand and rocks are very clean looking. Maybe the cucumber is partly responsible too.

[sangheili]

What type of snail is that? Looks like you added 2? Sorry out of all that, this is what I notice >_<. But glad your coral are bouncing back, such a colorful tank!

 

Thats the "I-like-to-stab-and-poke-at-every-coral-in-your-tank-and-probably-also-rip-some-off-the-rockwork-with-my-spikey-ends"... snail.

 

I ditched mine. They looked cool but ultimately caused problems.

 

Oh and Polar... your tank is completely sick.

[Polarcollision]

Thats the "I-like-to-stab-and-poke-at-every-coral-in-your-tank-and-probably-also-rip-some-off-the-rockwork-with-my-spikey-ends"... snail.

 

I ditched mine. They looked cool but ultimately caused problems.

 

Oh and Polar... your tank is completely sick.

 

So far all they have managed to do is fall off the rock and lay upside down in the sand. I keep putting them on the glass where they can at least look pretty and eat something. They're a few flip-overs away from being rehomed.

 

Thanks Sangheili! Your's is looking pretty sweet too

[gena]

That's bubblegum monster chalice. I got it as a tiny little nub. Normally they grow out smooth and thin over their substrate, so you see the round frag plug disk under them. I took it off the disk frag and glued it to rock rubble. When it grows over it's base, I'll pry the frag rubble up and add more to give it that interesting shape. I guess a reverse bonsai?? Anyways, it's large enough that I'm going to let it run loose over that bottom shelf.

 

Thanks for the input on the fish poo. They don't seem skinny so I'll let it ride like you suggest. Does it seem weird that the black clown wedges itself into a paly colony and stays there for hours? He seems fine otherwise, it's just hard for me to tell if he's a mellow, happy clown or sick.

 

Glad you liked the pics! I'll see if I can be more regular with them. :-)

I'll have to keep an eye out for a BG monster chalice! I have a low light area that it would be great in .

I don't think it's too unusual for a clown to just hang out in it's host for most of the day. Mine really only leave their safe area when I feed the tank. I think as long as it's still eating with gusto, it's ok .

[Polarcollision]

I'll have to keep an eye out for a BG monster chalice! I have a low light area that it would be great in .

I don't think it's too unusual for a clown to just hang out in it's host for most of the day. Mine really only leave their safe area when I feed the tank. I think as long as it's still eating with gusto, it's ok .

 

All 3 of my chalices get SPS level of light. They don't mind it at all. They came from a local reefer who puts all of his at the top of his tank, blasted by light.

[Polarcollision]

I'll have to keep an eye out for a BG monster chalice! I have a low light area that it would be great in .

I don't think it's too unusual for a clown to just hang out in it's host for most of the day. Mine really only leave their safe area when I feed the tank. I think as long as it's still eating with gusto, it's ok .

 

Almost forgot - that bubblegum monster chalice barely grew under the AI SOL with just the 2 blue and white leds and it kept a slightly peachish color, not much green in the heart. It finally took off under the hydra, took on the pink and green coloring, and is out pacing the others for growth now. Definitely think the red/green/violet makes a difference for it.

[gena]

That's really interesting about the light. I always thought they preferred lower light, like in the shadows. Maybe it's an individual thing sometimes? This definitely gives me more options though .

[markalot]

That is interesting about the Chalice light. I have 3 that I claim to hate because they just sit there, but I wonder what will happen if I mount them up where my montipora used to be.

[Polarcollision]

That is interesting about the Chalice light. I have 3 that I claim to hate because they just sit there, but I wonder what will happen if I mount them up where my montipora used to be.

 

Give it a go. Mine also get fed mysis twice a month when they get 'hungry' feeders at night.

[Polarcollision]

Knock on wood, the tank hit a sweet spot the last few weeks. I started rotating between all these foods: PE Mysis, hikari mysis, rotifers, cyclopeze, R.O.E, oyster feast, spirulina, KZ sponge power, KZ coral vitalizer, AcroPower, reef chilli, live BBS, frozen spirulina loaded brine shrimp, Koral Kolor, and NLS pellets (2 kinds). Everything is growing and glowing like crazy--even the 12 polyps left on the strawberry shortcake have turned into 30+

 

Almost 2 years of testing results right here. Left of red line is the 8 gallon, right is the 24. Now that my salt mixes to reasonable levels, I'm targeting values between that and NSW (shaded). Amazed the tank's never crashed completely considering all the swings...

 

[Polarcollision]

Anyone use the flipper nano to clean the hard green film off glass? Thinking about trying it out...

 

 

ALSO!! Grab something to drink and watch this dive at Raja Ampat Indonesia.

[markalot]

I use the regular flipper. It works well IMO, and it was the only thing that could keep my bowfront clean when it was running.

[Polarcollision]

I use the regular flipper. It works well IMO, and it was the only thing that could keep my bowfront clean when it was running.

 

It handles coralline pretty well too?

[markalot]

It handles coralline pretty well too?

 

Yea, the razor blade works quite well at getting coraline and other hard algae off the glass. If it sets in long enough you will still have to hand scrape, but I just used my flipper to scrape off a piece on the side wall of my 150 without any problem. Hopefully the nano version will work as well.

[gena]

I'm a flipper gal . Love mine. It handles all the tough stuff with ease!

 

Gonna try and sit down for lunch and watch that youtube video later today .

[GtTap]

The price on those flippers are steep. I want one though.

[tibbsy07]

Started wondering exactly what was growing in the tank and got out the microscope. The reddish blob magnified 40x. This is likely the TINIEST single-cell I've seen under the scope from my tank. It grows in a biofilm which traps random plankton - I assume for food. The larger dark, round shadows are the dinos I've had at low levels for almost 2 years.

 

Magnified 100x

 

unidentified (red)

 

 

I think these little dots are another type of dinoflagellate. Lucky me! From what I can tell, they typically appear when the biodiversity of the tank crashes, so my first plan of attack is to continue siphoning and to dose live algae/phyto, pods, and bacteria. I'll also start running the UV LED at night for a few hours. These dinos are photosynthetic (you can see the chloroplasts) so their numbers fade at night. I figure hitting them when they're down could work. Carbon changed every 4 days to absorb toxins.

 

 

There's also a brown film on the sand that reappears every 4 days or so. Turns out they're diatoms: Cylindrotheca closterium. Here's a fantastic pic of them taken by Waldo Nell with a DIC scope. The brown spikes are the diatoms. The green spheres are the algae film that grows on glass.

 

Pics of the tank in next post!

Ok, the last picture you posted about the diatoms is dead on. You have those completely correct.

 

As for dinos, I don't think the other brown-yellow stuff is the kind of dinos we typically get in our tanks. Believe it or not, those single tiny cells look like expelled, free-living zooxanthellae. At your 100X (total of 1000x magnification), they look like normal cells. They are too small, though, to be anything but some type of algae or bacteria. I initially thought cyano when I first read your PM and hadn't gotten to look, but they are too uniform and their yellow-brown description by you matches exactly how zooxanthellae are described.

 

Unfortunately the best I can do based on pictures you posted and my general knowledge of non-bacterial microbes is that these are either a single celled algae or bacterium. I'm leaning to Symbiodinium, our little coral symbiont friends, but in the pictures you posted I don't see organelles very well. They are larger than most bacteria, and their coloration implies photosynthesis. Definitely an algae of some kind. You mentioned in your PM that there was some coral damage/recession - that may be the reason for seeing the free-living zooxanthellae - something is causing tissue damage and the zooxanthellae are being released. Could be a pathogen, could be coral warfare, could by physical damage from an invert or fish. I do see some rod-shaped microbes, which is likely to be a bacterium. Could be part of the problem, might be totally innocuous. Sorry for not being able to help more.

[Polarcollision]

Ok, the last picture you posted about the diatoms is dead on. You have those completely correct.

 

As for dinos, I don't think the other brown-yellow stuff is the kind of dinos we typically get in our tanks. Believe it or not, those single tiny cells look like expelled, free-living zooxanthellae. At your 100X (total of 1000x magnification), they look like normal cells. They are too small, though, to be anything but some type of algae or bacteria. I initially thought cyano when I first read your PM and hadn't gotten to look, but they are too uniform and their yellow-brown description by you matches exactly how zooxanthellae are described.

 

Unfortunately the best I can do based on pictures you posted and my general knowledge of non-bacterial microbes is that these are either a single celled algae or bacterium. I'm leaning to Symbiodinium, our little coral symbiont friends, but in the pictures you posted I don't see organelles very well. They are larger than most bacteria, and their coloration implies photosynthesis. Definitely an algae of some kind. You mentioned in your PM that there was some coral damage/recession - that may be the reason for seeing the free-living zooxanthellae - something is causing tissue damage and the zooxanthellae are being released. Could be a pathogen, could be coral warfare, could by physical damage from an invert or fish. I do see some rod-shaped microbes, which is likely to be a bacterium. Could be part of the problem, might be totally innocuous. Sorry for not being able to help more.

 

Thank you!!!! Even if you're not completely sure what it is, you've helped rule out a whole bunch of possibilities. That's huge in my book. Really appreciate your help!

 

With the cat breaking the chiller just before our hottest days, there could definitely be expelled zoox in the tank. I'm relieved it's not likely dinos - not sure I have the gumption for that fight right now. There's probably someone out there dealing with free-living zoox so I'll see what they did and try to get things back on track.

 

Funny. If zoox don't travel far, these could be from the red planet SPS.

 

Kept going over husbandry troubleshooting and coming up blank--test kits all indicate levels within range. And then I remembered I hadn't changed the filters in the RODI. Ever. Bought it 11 months ago. I don't make a ton of water, maybe 15 gallons a month, but we have ridiculously high sediment rates since our water source is runoff from mountains and other post-glacier features. Anyways, got the cliff notes for RODI units and have a sediment and carbon block filter in the mail. Will also be picking up a chlorine test kit to monitor the carbon filter in the future. Water goes from 38 TDS from tap to 0 TDS leaving the RO membrane and 0 TDS leaving the maxcap and silica buster DI, but it's worth a shot.

 

Thinking about diatoms being fueled by silica, not even sure where new silica could be coming from, especially since I've been waiting for them to build up and siphoning/exporting them with the top grains of sand. Thought one: from these ice blocks from rubbermaid lunch kits (best lunch box ever) that I put into the aquarium to bring down temp sans chiller, so maybe that's fueling the diatoms and other outbreak too. Anyways, did a 80% water change a few days ago just in case, and will do another 80% in a few days.

 

Thought two is the silica buster DI has become overwhelmed by our sediment-laden water which has high levels of silica. Need to find out if silica is part of the ionic charge for TDS reading. Hunch is that it does not contribute. Possible Si test kit?

 

Thought three: the food grade 5 gallon water storage buckets leach(?)

 

I'll keep syphoning the zoox boogers. They're getting smaller and smaller now that the urchin is munching away the red geledium sweater.

 

Hmmm... If there is a bacterial pathogen on the loose, maybe dosing one of the bacteria products can help out-compete it. Might also be time to start replacing portions of the sand bed just in case nutrients have built up and bound to the grains. Sand is free of diatoms where the yellow watchman and shrimp disturb the sand and also munch on it.

[tibbsy07]

I should note that zooxanthellae are actually a kind of dinoflagellate. They can exist as free-living or endosymbiont, though the latter is far more common.

 

That being said, if I were you, I would dose with a Microbacter7 or Dr. Tim's Eco-balance probiotic thing for now, and maybe toss some chaetomorph into the rear chambers somewhere to help combat whatever it is. This won't outcompete the pathogens, necessarily, as the pathogens interact with the corals a very specific way that may not be affected at all by a probiotic. However, it couldn't hurt.

 

Additionally, I would not necessarily replace your sandbed, but I would gravel vac the crap out of it. If you are worried about too much water loss or too much water to change, you could put a filter sock on the end of the line so that you filter out the crud but don't lose the water.

[Polarcollision]

I should note that zooxanthellae are actually a kind of dinoflagellate. They can exist as free-living or endosymbiont, though the latter is far more common.

 

That being said, if I were you, I would dose with a Microbacter7 or Dr. Tim's Eco-balance probiotic thing for now, and maybe toss some chaetomorph into the rear chambers somewhere to help combat whatever it is. This won't outcompete the pathogens, necessarily, as the pathogens interact with the corals a very specific way that may not be affected at all by a probiotic. However, it couldn't hurt.

 

Additionally, I would not necessarily replace your sandbed, but I would gravel vac the crap out of it. If you are worried about too much water loss or too much water to change, you could put a filter sock on the end of the line so that you filter out the crud but don't lose the water.

 

That fits. I thought I remembered that they're a dinoflagellate, as well. Not going to panic yet even though fighting dinos is my worst reefing nightmare. They seem to be fueled by the mulm trapped in the red gelidium, based on their growth only over that algae carpet. I took a toothbrush to every area covered with either gelidium or the little white hydroids (also collecting detritus/mulm). Just noticed today that there are only 10 or so hydroids left in the entire tank. Never thought I'd see this day! Also found a tuxedo urchin sized between a nickel or quarter that can get into the rock niches. Takes a long time for it to clear so much rock of gelidium, but small enough to not be in danger of starving as it regrows. Now the little patches of zooxanthelle boogers are so small I can get them with a pipette every couple of days. Hopefully that means winning!

 

Here's what the gelidium looks like. Starts as the fine red threads, then grows into a thick mat that collects tons of detritus. Perfect nutrient nursery. The dinos grow on top of this. Also some areas of diatoms growing over this as well.

 

Just added the first dose of microbacter7 tonight. Darn store I bought it from has old product - the date on bottle is May 2013. Hopefully some of the spores are still viable. It smells a bit like vinegar so I guess that's a carbon source to fuel reproduction once it's in the tank. Read a little about the idea behind bacteria/carbon dosing. It seems vodka is the cleanest carbon source, and adding a little distilled white vinegar will help control any cyano outbreak that can appear from vodka dosing. Makes me think that certain carbon molecules help fuel different species (cyano, diatom, dinos, etc). If I don't see much improvement with just the microbacter7 over the next week or so, I'll try vodka and vinegar dosing as well. I drink wine and beer - it will be pretty funny to get the hard stuff just for the tank!

 

I've been siphoning up the top layer of sand for a few weeks but it doesn't seem to make a difference with diatom growth on the sand. It's back in force in about 3 days. Would I need about 1 micron filter to separate the diatoms from the water? Don't mind tossing the sand.

 

Last plan of attack is adding a fighting conch. LFS had one about 1" long. Perfect size for my little tank. It's already munching a nice large patch of diatoms. It's also in no danger of starving at the rate it eats, the sand will be covered the next time it gets around. Hoping that as the snail eats it will convert the nutrients into something that will skim out or be reused by a different type of microbe.

[tibbsy07]

Definitely expired. You are just feeding the tank now. Toss it and get some new stuff. None of the bacteria that we utilize for our tanks make spores, so they'd all likely be dead and lysed at this point.

[Polarcollision]

Definitely expired. You are just feeding the tank now. Toss it and get some new stuff. None of the bacteria that we utilize for our tanks make spores, so they'd all likely be dead and lysed at this point.

 

I thought I remembered that same thing from a microbiology class, but other boards with Randy Holmes Farley chiming in on Microbacter7 seem to think the only way the bacteria survive a year in the bottle is as spores. He/they think it's snake oil, even with lots of people saying it helped their tank. Someone plated it on agar and got a ton of growth compared to a control with just water that grew nothing. I'd take your word as a microbiologist over RHF on this subject, but god there's so much conflicting information/opinions out there.

[tibbsy07]

I thought I remembered that same thing from a microbiology class, but other boards with Randy Holmes Farley chiming in on Microbacter7 seem to think the only way the bacteria survive a year in the bottle is as spores. He/they think it's snake oil, even with lots of people saying it helped their tank. Someone plated it on agar and got a ton of growth compared to a control with just water that grew nothing. I'd take your word as a microbiologist over RHF on this subject, but god there's so much conflicting information/opinions out there.

In this case, the bacteria simply happen to be pretty hardy, and I'm willing to bet whatever is in the liquid has nutrients, etc. Plus the bacteria will feed on bacteria that have lysed. They don't care. They definitely do not make spores, however, and it used to be that products like Microbacter7 used soil spore-forming bacteria as they would last forever and would then just die in the salt water and feed the microbes that were already there.

 

I don't think these are snake oil, and clearly plating them on a plate suggests that there is something there. It should be noted, though, that 99% of environmental isolates do not grow in laboratory conditions. Since most of the bacteria we want have been grown in laboratory conditions, I think that it is likely that it's a good sign that growth was achieved. I wonder what the water sample control was?

 

RHF is a very smart man, but he is incorrect in this case, I think. Lots of people saying it helps their tank is simply anecdotal evidence and should be taken with a grain of salt. Most of the time they are also doing other things to help their tank at the same time, so saying that Microbacter7 actually helps is not possible with current evidence. Nor is Dr. Tim's. There is no harm in using either one, especially if it helps you achieve your goal of tank specifics, but to say that these alone will actually fix your tank is a stretch by anyone.

 

What you should do about forming opinions is read what the product says, read what people say it does for them, then consider if it actually makes sense what they are saying. Example:"This product will remove all the bad algae from your tank!" "I use it and I have no more algae." This person also scrubs their rocks, does larger water changes, feeds less, and has overall better husbandry. Does the product work for them? Maybe, but don't buy it from their experience. Do other people have the same result with doing NOTHING but adding the product? If they do, you have a great option. If they don't, then buy it only if you want to try it.

 

I needed a larger bacterial population in my tank. microbacter7, whether it is simply nutrients for bacteria or actual live bacteria, helped me do that. But that's a qualitative measure, not quantitative. I couldn't publish that kind of result.

[Polarcollision]

Oh, I wonder if that's why one reason RHF is down on Brightwell. I didn't know they used to used soil bacteria. Add timing of articles to the 'truth' mix too. :-) I like the way you think - good reminder to look for the isolated change which is more likely to be a cause of that change.

 

I don't mind following anecdotal success stories when their aquarium is stellar. They're doing something right and I may as well try it out too even if I don't understand the why of it. Crowd source reefing? Anyways, glad you agree that RHF might be wrong here. I felt conflicted dismissing his opinion with everything he does get right.

 

Now to find out who around here has IN DATE Microbacter7.

[tibbsy07]

Oh, I wonder if that's why one reason RHF is down on Brightwell. I didn't know they used to used soil bacteria. Add timing of articles to the 'truth' mix too. :-) I like the way you think - good reminder to look for the isolated change which is more likely to be a cause of that change.

 

I don't mind following anecdotal success stories when their aquarium is stellar. They're doing something right and I may as well try it out too even if I don't understand the why of it. Crowd source reefing? Anyways, glad you agree that RHF might be wrong here. I felt conflicted dismissing his opinion with everything he does get right.

 

Now to find out who around here has IN DATE Microbacter7.

Brightwell doesn't use soil microbes as far as I know, but older products from other groups did. Dr. Tim's and Brightwell I believe are marine microbes.

 

And as far as being right all the time, he is correct often, but he makes mistakes. We all do. He's brilliant, a PhD in chemistry, so he is 100% reliable for chemistry-related things. He's probably 98% reliable in biological sciences, including microbiology. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, I just think he is either mistaken, or just mispoke in this case. I understand his point - there is no legitimate data concerning any of these products (actually something I want to do).

 

I think I may bring in some Microbacter7 and check it out on the microscopes here in lab. See what we see.

 

I sent Dr. Tim an email from my work email asking about some of his claims. We'll see what he says. Same for Brightwell.