Polarcollision's Nuvo 24: March FTS

[Polarcollision]

Oh, Mark. I just thought of something. Is your pH lower at night only? From what I understand calcification in stony coral happens with light during the daytime so if your pH is within 8.1-8.3 days, you should theoretically have enough carbonate for calcification. If it drops at night, calcification isn't occurring at the same rate - no light to drive it so it might be OK to have slightly lower pH over night. The point that low pH becomes an issue for calcification is 7.5-7.7 range IIRC my ocean acidification numbers correctly. I'm letting mine swing from 8.2 days to 8.0 nights. Seems to work fine within the context of my other levels.

[owenj]

Just finished paging through the whole thread. 1) I <3 Jasper. 2) Your pics make me feel unworthy lol. Some great info in this thread. Would like to swap opinions on some of the LFS around here sometime

[Polarcollision]

Just finished paging through the whole thread. 1) I <3 Jasper. 2) Your pics make me feel unworthy lol. Some great info in this thread. Would like to swap opinions on some of the LFS around here sometime

 

Thanks! Jasper is such a sweet cat. Can't believe how lucky I got with him. :-) He was found abandoned on First Hill and fostered through Seattle Animal Shelter. Namara was fostered there too and is probably the most affectionate, dog-like cat I've ever known. I think the families the shelter chooses for fosters really do a great job mothering kittens and I'd send anyone looking for kittens to them.

 

I'm more than happy to share photo tips. A little practice and a few hints and you'll be swinging them out of the park in no time!

 

I like Barrier Reef Aquariums the best. They have great selections for SPS and fish. The only down side is that they're about 45 minutes away without traffic. Probably better for my wallet though! Next, I like Saltwater City, Little Amazon for fish, and Denny's Pet World will sometimes get a sweet nugget in. I'm personally refusing to shop at Red C ever again after a few experiences/frustrations. Oh, The Fish Store sometimes has coral and fish. Dip and quarantine though!

 

Honestly, the best sources for coral and other things are connections with other reefers via FB and craigslist. I'll PM you the hot spots and my uncensored feelings/experiences with some of these LFSs

[owenj]

Thanks! Jasper is such a sweet cat. Can't believe how lucky I got with him. :-) He was found abandoned on First Hill and fostered through Seattle Animal Shelter. Namara was fostered there too and is probably the most affectionate, dog-like cat I've ever known. I think the families the shelter chooses for fosters really do a great job mothering kittens and I'd send anyone looking for kittens to them.

 

I'm more than happy to share photo tips. A little practice and a few hints and you'll be swinging them out of the park in no time!

 

I like Barrier Reef Aquariums the best. They have great selections for SPS and fish. The only down side is that they're about 45 minutes away without traffic. Probably better for my wallet though! Next, I like Saltwater City, Little Amazon for fish, and Denny's Pet World will sometimes get a sweet nugget in. I'm personally refusing to shop at Red C ever again after a few experiences/frustrations. Oh, The Fish Store sometimes has coral and fish. Dip and quarantine though!

 

Honestly, the best sources for coral and other things are connections with other reefers via FB and craigslist. I'll PM you the hot spots and my uncensored feelings/experiences with some of these LFSs

We got our 2 newest kitties from MEOW (based in Kirkland), though they were fostered by a very sweet family in Bothell. I don't know how foster families do it because I'd never let the babies go .

 

I got a Canon Rebel SL1 for Christmas but haven't tested it out a whole lot yet. Except for pictures of the cats... Do you use photo editing software after the fact or fuss with the camera settings?

 

I love Barrier Reef! & I only live 12 miles from them now. Haven't been to Saltwater City in over a year, but I wasn't overly impressed the one time I went. Never been to Little Amazon. Agree on Denny's--they're hit or miss. I've had great and horrible customer service from them over the years so honestly I tend to stay away except around their big summer sale when I've picked up a tank (or cat food). Love their display tanks though.

[NanoTopia]

Seawater composition has apparently changed over time, the abilities of corals to calcify is apparently higher than what NSW supports--though there is the upper limit of course.

 

Hey Deb, can you explain this further or provide a link to support this statement.

 

From my experience, when tank nutrients are at NSW levels, raising ALK above 7.5 dKH can result in tissue necrosis on SPS corals, mainly from the base but can be from other areas of the coral. Increased elements are a stress factor for coral, I do not believe coral can uptake calcification elements faster simply because there are more of them in solution. Calcification is dependant on many factors and as long as there is always adequate elements available, the coral can obtain them with ease.

 

It does seem that if tank nutrients are above that of NSW levels, corals can tolerate increased alkalinity levels without TN issues, to a point. This does not mean the coral is not stressed to some degree just that it may be better at tolerating it. I have ran higher Alk/Ca/Mg in the past on other tanks and have never noticed higher growth rates from corals, only ionic imbalance and other issues developing.

 

So, what I'm suggesting is nutrient levels (NO3/PO4) are somehow related to how high you can push element levels, mainly Ca, carbonate/bicarbonate, potassium, SO4, and Mg. I have yet to read a credible article that proves proof that higher saturation of elements is better for corals. The best thing for corals IMO is trying to provide an stable environment as close to the environment they evolved in. The better an aquarist is at doing this the more successful they will be.

[Polarcollision]

Hey Deb, can you explain this further or provide a link to support this statement.

 

The seawater changes was referenced by RHF in regard to Mg component of stony coral over time. With Mg seawater concentration lower in the past, it reasons that Ca and Alk would also have lower concentrations since Mg supports their saturation. Link is in earlier post.

 

Here's a paper showing proportionally increased calcification by porites and acropora in higher than NSW concentrations of bicarbonate. Porites up to 3x NSW and acropora up to 8mM (I think that's 4x NSW). Photosynthesis increased up to 2x NSW concentrations. Even RHF recommends keeping alk 7-11. Growth is a hallmark of health, so I'm not yet convinced the coral was stressed just because it was growing/calcifying faster in the higher concentrations. It has to be another factor. Interestingly, I found another paper that studied calcification by changing calcium concentrations. They did not get the same growth results, concluding that calcification rates stopped above NSW levels.

 

Here's something to consider too... Ever wonder about how long our industrial revolution has affected ocean levels? If it's truly as dire as proclaimed, wouldn't that make ocean levels measured over the last several decades skewed at least somewhat from the environment coral evolved in? I can't help but notice how houseplants cared for meticulously look better than the same plant left out in nature, or how an indoor cat lives longer than outdoor cats, etc?

 

I think that what stresses the coral at this higher than NSW concentration and faster calcification rates is a limiting factor of bio molecules to build cells fast enough to cover the new skeleton (and grow it) but also importantly, an imbalanced pH. I believe that the higher the concentration of these elements, the more critical it is to keep pH between 8.1 - 8.3. I've lost the paper link, but pH of 7.2 vs pH of 7.9 shifts the concentration of carbonate from around 19% to 6%. That's a huge shift toward bicarbonate. Easy to see how coral would be stressed in that condition. With higher alk, a pH swing down even less would increase bicarbonate to levels stressful to coral.

 

Anyways, all theory and head stuff. Here are actual reefs running high values that are clearly doing incredibly well.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/totm/index.php (3.5-4 or 9.8-11.2)

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-05/totm/index.php (10-12)

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/totm/index.php (10-11)

[Polarcollision]

We got our 2 newest kitties from MEOW (based in Kirkland), though they were fostered by a very sweet family in Bothell. I don't know how foster families do it because I'd never let the babies go .

 

I got a Canon Rebel SL1 for Christmas but haven't tested it out a whole lot yet. Except for pictures of the cats... Do you use photo editing software after the fact or fuss with the camera settings?

 

I love Barrier Reef! & I only live 12 miles from them now. Haven't been to Saltwater City in over a year, but I wasn't overly impressed the one time I went. Never been to Little Amazon. Agree on Denny's--they're hit or miss. I've had great and horrible customer service from them over the years so honestly I tend to stay away except around their big summer sale when I've picked up a tank (or cat food). Love their display tanks though.

 

Yeah I totally see that. Jasper's foster mom was really sad to see him go. I sent updates for a while so she wouldn't worry about him too much.

 

Both. Set a custom white balance to your current tank lighting using the sand or a grey card or even a sheet of white paper under the lights. That will get your RAW files pretty close to realistic. Sometimes I increase the white LEDs to 100% to make the lighting more camera-friendly. Lightroom or Adobe Camera Raw includes temperature and tint sliders that fix most remaining color casts. You might notice that my last photos still had the purple color cast. I didn't adjust the LEDs before shooting and then I took photos at blue hour. That was just enough to max out the tint and temp sliders. From there, it would take fancy footwork in photoshop to correct--which I do for landscapes, but not for coral and fish. :-)

 

You know that giant 2 foot leather in Denny's display tank? Watching the tomato clowns play in it is what finally pushed me over the ledge to getting a tank myself. :-) Sorry to hear about the experience with customer service there. I think once they recognize you as a 'for real' fish/coral customer and not the usual 'just looking' browser who just bought crickets for their frog that they should be more responsive.

[NanoTopia]

I know there are many artificial reefs running higher Ca and Alk out there, and I don't argue it can't be done successfully if nutrient levels are slightly elevated. I saw one reef recently, one that I have known for some time now, maybe you know it also, Andrews "Reef in the Sky" out of Hong Kong. He keeps a Zeovit reef with NSW parameters, low nutrients etc. His growth seems almost unreal to me. My growth is slow in comparison. I believe it is the low dissolved nutrients more than the elevated elements that matters most, that and a healthy balanced system. I know the articles but how come so many reefers here with elevated elements have little growth. I am not in the coral culturing business so I am not concerned with growth, only health and colour. And, I would not say growth rates are necessarily an indicator of health. Well that's just from my experience but there is always another person with different results and experiences. I have tried the elevated Alk thing in the past and it doesn't work for me, especially with Zeovit. I have had good results keeping SPS with NSW levels in the past 2 years and there is no way I will change what is clearly working for me. Now an LPS tank, different story

 

Can't read the article, only the Abstract, there is no indication as to how long the growth continued or for how long the increase in alkalinity was sustained. Also, the experiment was done in artificial water to which I do not know the nutrient levels. If nutrients were undetectable I find it hard to believe these corals could sustain the kind of growth indicated over a month before falling apart LOL.

[Zia]

Congrats on the nine months anniversary! Tank looks so colorful and way more mature than only nine months, good job!

[Polarcollision]

Congrats on the nine months anniversary! Tank looks so colorful and way more mature than only nine months, good job!

 

:-) Thanks Zia! Looking at it every day it feels like it it taking FOREVER to fill in. Yours is looking pretty sweet as well.

 

 

In other news, I bought the Red Sea blue bucket and will raise alk and ca to my preferred levels before adding to the tank. I'm trying to keep alk swings to less than 0.5 dKH at any one time in the day. When I mix up RSCP salt, alk tests at 12.3 dKH, so my 5 gallon water changes every two weeks spikes alk over 1.5 dKH. Not so great. Ever since the baby wrasses died and disappeared, I've been fighting the outbreak on the sand. Sucking up the brown goo and adding new water. The high alk limits how often I can do this as well. I'd really like to clean the sand right now, but if I add any more new water, alk will rise even higher to stress out acros already upset over the fairly recent drops to 5 dKH. 5-12 dKH over 2 months. What a mess! Crossing fingers that the blue bucket's lower parameters will allow for more frequent large water changes when they're needed. Will probably have to supplement a bit of alk and ca to match the tank, but it sure beats not being able to remove alk and ca from the water!

[NanoTopia]

Hi Deborah,

 

Have a look at this new article in Advanced Aquarist:

 

 

"Aquarist most often maintain elevated levels of pH, alkalinity, and calcium to promote coral health. In this study however, elevated conditions of these parameters resulted in a decline of photosynthetic efficiency (F_v/F_m), indicating an overall decrease in coral health. There was also a slight decrease in health as parameter values increased within the recommended ranges. This effect should be considered when dosing in a closed system as corals experienced optimal health within the lower values of the recommended ranges." http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/7/corals

[markalot]

Hi Deborah,

 

Have a look at this new article in Advanced Aquarist:

 

Awesome, thanks for posting the link. I keep forgetting to check that site monthly.

 

Happy nine months PC!

[Polarcollision]

Hi Deborah,

 

Have a look at this new article in Advanced Aquarist:

 

 

Christine, the experiment tanks aimed for 4.2 for low alk and 19.6 for high alk. That's much more extreme than I would consider running a tank and I'm not surprised by the results. However, Take a look at the red-green-black plot graph toward the end of the article. See how the mean line looks pretty good at 7 alk, increases slightly at 8.4 alk, maintains that increased 'maximum potential quantum yeild' through 10.5, and then nose dives? This supports exactly what I have been noticing in my reading, that slightly elevated levels, up to 10.5 alk can be beneficial.

 

Previously I was thinking 8.2-8.4 target for pH, but 8.2 is clearly the winner from this study.

[markalot]

I was disappointed that they did not go below 7.9 PH, since many people have to deal with PH as low as 7.7 to 7.8.

 

I don't agree that higher alk can be beneficial. Negative effects start to show up very low, at 6.3 KH. which is crazy low. For my money 8.4 or 8.5 KH looks about perfect, especially for SPS. Elevated enough to give some wiggle room if something goes wrong.

[Polarcollision]

I was disappointed that they did not go below 7.9 PH, since many people have to deal with PH as low as 7.7 to 7.8.

 

I don't agree that higher alk can be beneficial. Negative effects start to show up very low, at 6.3 KH. which is crazy low. For my money 8.4 or 8.5 KH looks about perfect, especially for SPS. Elevated enough to give some wiggle room if something goes wrong.

I was disappointed that they did not go below 7.9 PH, since many people have to deal with PH as low as 7.7 to 7.8.

 

I don't agree that higher alk can be beneficial. Negative effects start to show up very low, at 6.3 KH. which is crazy low. For my money 8.4 or 8.5 KH looks about perfect, especially for SPS. Elevated enough to give some wiggle room if something goes wrong.

Mark, take a look at that dot graph in the article. It clearly shows a slight positive increase for their 3 coral types up to 10.5 alk. It also shows a peak performance with calcium at 375 which declined a little as it rose through 440.

 

Is your pH in that 7.9-8.1 range?

 

Edit: I just read the first comment by Tim to the article. His questions are good enough that I'm taking this article with a grain of salt for now.

[markalot]

Mark, take a look at that dot graph in the article. It clearly shows a slight positive increase for their 3 coral types up to 10.5 alk. It also shows a peak performance with calcium at 375 which declined a little as it rose through 440.

 

Is your pH in that 7.9-8.1 range?

 

Edit: I just read the first comment by Tim to the article. His questions are good enough that I'm taking this article with a grain of salt for now.

 

This one?

 

 

I'm seeing negative dots starting at 2.25 meq/L, which could be noise or it could be an indication that not all varieties of these species do well at an elevated Alk. I do agree with Tim that the results may be suspect, but then I would have spexcted her to measure all parameters when testing and not just the single one she was testing.

 

Without a co2 scrubber and Kalk my PH will drop all the way down to 7.7 and a little below. Very dangerous according to Farley, and the one time it dropped below 7.7 I did see negative effects in the tank. I've got a room co2 issue being in the basement of a sealed home that I'm trying to manage.

[NanoTopia]

I agree that this study is much too narrow to determine much.

 

I think the most important value missing here is "time". For example: Corals show an increase in growth at 3.0meq/L, but for how long? And would there have been long term effects on the coral (health in general) with prolonged stress resulting in a decline in growth possibly?

 

I still fail to understand how NSW parameters are somehow not optimum for corals. They evolved in these parameters which have gone relatively unchanged for thousands of years, most reefs (those unaffected by humans) still see coral spawning events and are generally happy and growing.

 

It is not unlike mankind to try and do better than nature, it is, and always has been, our goal to manipulate and push the limits of everything. Manipulation to increase production and thus profit, but at what long term cost? Burning of fossil fuels to run factories and increase wealth has put us in the predicament we are in now with the reefs, and the rest of the worlds climates.

 

If the corals you keep are genuinely more healthy at an alkalinity 8.2 dKH, and this is the case over years, then that is the right alkalinity to keep for your reef. There is no debate. Tell me of one natural reef that has an alkalinity of >8.0 dKH?

 

We have to keep in mind there are many variables to consider and each artificial reef is slightly different. The issue is that we generally keep such a variety of species from so many locations in the world, each with specific optimum parameters in which they thrive in, that it becomes difficult to keep everything in the tank completely happy at the same time.

[Polarcollision]

Tell me of one natural reef that has an alkalinity of >8.0 dKH?

AFAIK, ocean acidification that began with industrial revolution, progressing to the point we are at now has declined from an average surface pH of 8.25 to current 8.14. I'd be interested in what reputable sources you scare up for ocean pH even 100-150 years ago.

[Polarcollision]

4:15 am the morning we're leaving for a week cruise up the inside passage to Glacier Bay, cat does this to the chiller:

 

 

Home depot closed. S***!

Mopped up & replaced 5 gallons of water, made 5 gallons RODI top off

Reset light program to 50% intensity, cut whites back to 10%

Replaced glass lid with window screen

Pointed 3 fans at aquarium, one over water surface

Begged kitty sitter to visit every day to replace ice packs ~5pm when tank is warmest.

 

Tank hits 82º when air temps reach 72º. With forecast highs of 90º, crossed fingers that at least the fish would survive and ran out door to catch 7:00 train to Vancouver port. Not going to lie, I cried a bit.

 

One week later:

all fish accounted for

lost oregon tort, hawkins echinata, frog skin, tricolor valida, joe the coral, orange digitata, and hyaciynth birdsnest

half-gone: red planet, pink lemonade, 10K lokani, pink mille, and another birdsnest.

survived: all montis, the other birds, all LPS, all softes, all gorgs, all macros and the clam. Montis lost some color.

 

Not too bad, considering I expected nothing to survive.

 

Here's the trouble-maker keeping cool

[gena]

 

What a nightmare. That darn kitty .

 

Thank goodness losses were fairly minimal!

[owenj]

Ugh, so sorry to hear about the adventures of lucky-you're-cute (that's what I tell one of my cats daily). Sucks that you had some losses, but glad you've got a good number of survivors too.

[Alex B]

Does Vancouver get that hot?? I would have never thought you needed a chiller in Canada!

Heck I don't even use one in Florida. Isn't the tank running LEDs?

 

 

Edit. Prob no central AC right?

[Cameron6796]

That's minimal ? That's some ppl whole tanks

[Polarcollision]

Does Vancouver get that hot?? I would have never thought you needed a chiller in Canada!

Heck I don't even use one in Florida. Isn't the tank running LEDs?

 

 

Edit. Prob no central AC right?

 

Yeah, it was a huge surprise to discover almost no homes have AC here. Our place is close to Puget Sound so we have a little more cooling from the water. It usually tops out at 80 degrees in summer. Just unfortunate timing with the heat wave last week.

 

Ugh, so sorry to hear about the adventures of lucky-you're-cute (that's what I tell one of my cats daily). Sucks that you had some losses, but glad you've got a good number of survivors too.

 

Sounds like you have your hands full with 'lucky you're cute'. Poor cat must have thought we abandoned her as punishment. She's been clingy since we got back. And she is super cute - almost dog-like sometimes.

 

 

What a nightmare. That darn kitty .

 

Thank goodness losses were fairly minimal!

 

Oh yeah, so glad the entire tank wasn't taken out. All thanks to the wonderful kitty/tank sitter. Luckily everything lost is fairly easy to replace. The only thing I can't wrap my head around is exactly how that connector piece is so flimsy. The repair will apparently need to weather a 15 lb cat falling on it.

 

 

That's minimal ? That's some ppl whole tanks

 

It hurt a little to see the delicate pieces bone white, but at least the rest pulled through. Once I'm sure everything is stabilized I'll start replacing the SPS.

[Egginis]

Just found your thread. You have one amazing aquarium with lots of beautiful pieces. A lot of great advice and information has also been given on your thread. Sorry to hear about your chiller/cat fiasco. Now you can search for been better pieces to replace the ones you lost.