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GFO, Phosguard - Iron & Aluminum - No Bueno


orly20

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Hi,

 

I have been reading through numerous threads throughout the web reference GFO and other phosphate removers having adverse or negative effects on clams and corals.

 

I wanted to get my Nextreef MR1 Shorty hooked up with some GFO but while I was doing some reading for my new little clam, I came across the posts and replies of the very knowledgeable peeps ZephNYC and Randy Holmes-Farley. They both have very good input and experience of the effects these products have in our aquariums when most of us are always trying to get to Low or ULNS.

 

I think it goes a little something like this(correct me if I am wrong):

 

Iron = Ignites or feeds the protozoa that cause pinched mantle

 

Aluminum = Irritates LPS and other things I am not familiar with

 

I would love for you all to chime in with your experiences with GFO and Phosguard in your clam tanks and if there are better alternatives for us here in the nano world or if you have seen little if any issues?

 

Thanks,

 

OMG!! MY 100th post! omgomgomg

Mom will be proud! lol

 

P.S. = Metrokat, pls I know you could help me with this topic. What do you suggest?

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May I ask why you believe that you need to use a phosphate removing product at all? A reasonable bioload, proper aquarium husbandry and appropriate feeding can easily result in no measurable phosphate (at least not from our hobbyist test kits), if that's your goal.

 

GFO was originally intended to be used occasionally, but has somehow become a product that many use on a continuous basis and often use too much of. Ergo, problems...

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I'll ask Zeph to chime in here. He uses phosguard which is aluminium based and his clams still die.

I use GFO and I have 2 clams, one of which has been with me over 6 months.

 

The premise of the GFO usage for clam death is related to some evidence that Pinched Mantle disease uses iron as a fuel. If you get a healthy clam without PM disease, the GFO will not kill it.

 

Zeph has struggled with PM disease in one of his systems for years, his research suggests it is like ich, you can't ever really get rid of it and it will show up and kill a compromised animal, just like ich would. And Iron fuels it.

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May I ask why you believe that you need to use a phosphate removing product at all? A reasonable bioload, proper aquarium husbandry and appropriate feeding can easily result in no measurable phosphate (at least not from our hobbyist test kits), if that's your goal.

 

GFO was originally intended to be used occasionally, but has somehow become a product that many use on a continuous basis and often use too much of. Ergo, problems...

 

Yes of course, I am interested in using a phosphate remover because I have been trying to get rid of the little bit of algae that keeps growing on lr and the false wall on the back of my Solana. I test my phosphates with my hanna tester and it always read .00 and my nitrates read .00 also. I do weekly water changes and have a pretty good skimmer(JNS WS-1). I still keep getting macro algae and fine hair algae in the tank. I recently have also started to add more sps and wanted to get closer to low nutrient system as possible. I have led's on my setup and have throttled the hours back a bit to see if that would do the trick but to no avail. My fish bioload consists of 2 percs, sixline, cleaner shrimp, Maxima clam and along with all my lps and recently added sps.

I figured that the algae and macro algae are sucking up the little bit of nutrients the system has making it undetectable on my end. I figured running some GFO would out compete the algae.

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I use phosguard with my clam and have no problems at all, my clam is as happy as.. well.. a clam.. I don't use a lot though, and it's also run passively in a bag in the sump rather than in a reactor/tumbler..

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I'll ask Zeph to chime in here. He uses phosguard which is aluminium based and his clams still die.

I use GFO and I have 2 clams, one of which has been with me over 6 months.

 

The premise of the GFO usage for clam death is related to some evidence that Pinched Mantle disease uses iron as a fuel. If you get a healthy clam without PM disease, the GFO will not kill it.

 

Zeph has struggled with PM disease in one of his systems for years, his research suggests it is like ich, you can't ever really get rid of it and it will show up and kill a compromised animal, just like ich would. And Iron fuels it.

 

 

So using GFO is somewhat of a toss up, you would have to keep a close eye on your clam and hope that you don't flare up a PM reaction.

 

Thanks

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I use phosguard with my clam and have no problems at all, my clam is as happy as.. well.. a clam.. I don't use a lot though, and it's also run passively in a bag in the sump rather than in a reactor/tumbler..

 

If I were to ever use GFO, this is exactly how I'd use.

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Yes of course, I am interested in using a phosphate remover because I have been trying to get rid of the little bit of algae that keeps growing on lr and the false wall on the back of my Solana. I test my phosphates with my hanna tester and it always read .00 and my nitrates read .00 also. I do weekly water changes and have a pretty good skimmer(JNS WS-1). I still keep getting macro algae and fine hair algae in the tank. I recently have also started to add more sps and wanted to get closer to low nutrient system as possible. I have led's on my setup and have throttled the hours back a bit to see if that would do the trick but to no avail. My fish bioload consists of 2 percs, sixline, cleaner shrimp, Maxima clam and along with all my lps and recently added sps.

I figured that the algae and macro algae are sucking up the little bit of nutrients the system has making it undetectable on my end. I figured running some GFO would out compete the algae.

 

I see where you are going with this and running a small bag passively in the system may get you there. People run into most trouble when they use it too aggressively.

 

The way I look at algae is that it is an inevitable part of an ecosystem. It can and does survive/grow in pristine, oligotrophic waters in nature as it does in the best maintained reef tank. It only becomes a problem, really, when nutrient levels rise too high and a bloom results. As in nature, herbivours crop what does pop up in such environments. A single blue-leg hermit has done a good job and the small amount he doesn't get I pluck out each week when I perform a WC.

 

I have successfully kept clams for over a year, but we're talking 15 years ago. My water was not 'pristine' and lighting wasn't as good or intense as we have today. With very high output lighting I'd run the tank cleaner like you are attempting.

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I use Phosguard and GFO in a reactor, along with Activated Carbon. I have the GFO at the bottom, Phosguard in the middle and then the activated carbon last. I haven't noticed any effects on my clam.

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Thanks Nano sapien,

 

I have a bag of Chemi pure elite that I should be switching out but I am a little worried that I might spark something I will regret later. I will definitely be cautious and gradual with everything, especially in our small systems.

 

Passive is the word!

 

I wonder if those Phos-pure pads are any better?

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I use Phosguard and GFO in a reactor, along with Activated Carbon. I have the GFO at the bottom, Phosguard in the middle and then the activated carbon last. I haven't noticed any effects on my clam.

 

Ok that sounds like a work around! How often do you change it out?

 

So how long have your clams been happy with that layered reactor?

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Ok that sounds like a work around! How often do you change it out?

 

So how long have your clams been happy with that layered reactor?

 

I've only had the clam for a couple months, but it's been doing great so far. I change out the reactor every month.

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I've only had the clam for a couple months, but it's been doing great so far. I change out the reactor every month.

 

Cool Thanks Sunburn

 

I wonder what Zeph thinks on your stacking method in your reactor. I think you would get a safer and maybe more passive result this way, also depending on how much media you implement at a time.

 

Here is a pic of my little baby I bought from one of our very own sponsors Morgan from Reef Gardener

 

I think its about 3 inches

DSC01712.jpg

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Cute clam. Needs high light.

 

Yea, I have it under LED's about 5 inches off the sandbed, I plan to move her up slowly. The picture doesn't do it any justice, its amazing.

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Cool Thanks Sunburn

 

I wonder what Zeph thinks on your stacking method in your reactor. I think you would get a safer and maybe more passive result this way, also depending on how much media you implement at a time.

 

Here is a pic of my little baby I bought from one of our very own sponsors Morgan from Reef Gardener

 

I think its about 3 inches

DSC01712.jpg

 

That looks just like my clam. I got my from Pacific East Corals.

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Cool Thanks Sunburn

 

I wonder what Zeph thinks on your stacking method in your reactor. I think you would get a safer and maybe more passive result this way, also depending on how much media you implement at a time.

 

PhosBan says not to tumble their GFO. The reason people tumble it is so it won't harden. I have mine in an Innovative Marine reactor. The way you adjust the water flow is by turning the inside chamber, so I just turn it every day so the water flow changes in it. It hasn't bricked up on me yet. :)

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Hello all. My computer is down so I haven't been on, but Metrobrat has been twisting my arm all day to post here. Lol. Firstly, I take offense to said Brat for saying my clams die!!!! I've had my Gigas for 7 years and have always run Seachem Phosguard. My clam problems revolve around excessive water changes and extreme low nutrient levels. But since I have stopped running my skimmers full time my Maximas are doing so much better. I'm so excited!!! FINALLY!!

Healthy clams won't flinch whether you run GFO or aluminum. The only thing aluminum appears to irritate is many species of soft corals, especially leathers. Sprung agrees with this. What we do need to know is that most aluminum based phosphate removers are ceramic style flakes, and will dump nearly everything they have removed after about 36 hours. Kent phosphate sponge is the worst and even the label admits it. All others I know of are just as bad except Seachem phosguard. This is pretty much the only white remover that does not self destruct apon saturation.

So btw Metrobrat, my blue Squamosa is 8 months, and my deresa is over a year and my Maximas look like flying carpets.

That was a lot for a phone post.

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I have 2 IM reactors. Bricks. Also Julian Sprung says to tumble. I can't keep up honestly.

 

The directions on the PhosBan container recommend both ways.

 

Here are the instructions:

 

... Phosban is best used without a media bag in an upflow filter, such as Two Little Fishies' PhosBan reactor, and the flow must be reduced sufficiently to prevent the granules from tumbling, which would grind them into a powder. An alternative is to put Phosban in a tightly-packed media bag or between two layers of fine filter floss in any kind of flow-through filter or filter chamber so that the water is directed through it diffusely.

 

I use the IM reactor as a flow through filter. Turning the inside chamber daily changes the water flow and keeps it from hardening up. But since I change it every month, if I went longer, it could brick up. So far it's been working for me. I'm hoping to eliminate the GFO altogether. Very messy.

 

I wonder if mixing PhoBan and Phosguard together would help it from becoming a brick?

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I've found running smaller amounts of GFO or Phosguard and swapping them out more frequently is a better approach. I always swap out media weekly as part of the water change.

 

I've also run phosguard simultaneously with GFO. Due to the possibility of galvanic corrosion, I've always separated the alum from the GFO physically, but I don't think it really matters.

 

Mixing GFO and a small amount of zeolite or carbon will prevent it from clumping in a reactor.

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Hello all. My computer is down so I haven't been on, but Metrobrat has been twisting my arm all day to post here. Lol. Firstly, I take offense to said Brat for saying my clams die!!!! I've had my Gigas for 7 years and have always run Seachem Phosguard. My clam problems revolve around excessive water changes and extreme low nutrient levels. But since I have stopped running my skimmers full time my Maximas are doing so much better. I'm so excited!!! FINALLY!! Healthy clams won't flinch whether you run GFO or aluminum. The only thing aluminum appears to irritate is many species of soft corals, especially leathers. Sprung agrees with this. What we do need to know is that most aluminum based phosphate removers are ceramic style flakes, and will dump nearly everything they have removed after about 36 hours. Kent phosphate sponge is the worst and even the label admits it. All others I know of are just as bad except Seachem phosguard. This is pretty much the only white remover that does not self destruct apon saturation. So btw Metrobrat, my blue Squamosa is 8 months, and my deresa is over a year and my Maximas look like flying carpets. That was a lot for a phone post.

 

Metrokat, thank you for twisting arms for posts.

 

Zeph,

Thank you for your reply

 

 

I would love for you to weigh in on the reactor stacking method Sunburn uses.

 

 

"I use Phosguard and GFO in a reactor, along with Activated Carbon. I have the GFO at the bottom, Phosguard in the middle and then the activated carbon last. I haven't noticed any effects on my clam."

 

Using all of the three media with the carbon as the last stage, acting as a filter to the other two media. Do you think this would reduce the effect on softies and especially leathers? Would the carbon absorb the some of the iron and/or aluminum at all?

 

I know that this is not science and none of this is experimental data but years of hands on experience sometimes is just as good.

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