Whats with everyone's hate for AI

[Cameron6796]

I don't want to start some fight over nr but I don't understand so many people say "AI is full spectrum but isn't effective" that OSRAM LEDs are a waste of space and energy, I guess it is more of a personal opinion but without factual evidence we cant prove any light is better .

.

I know ill probably get a lot of bad comments on this and that's not what I'm trying to get.

[farkwar]

Compared to what you can do DIY, they are kinda underpowered.

 

Even their own PAR charts, that they publish, are a bit underwhelming.

 

The Hydra52 is a bit different of course, but their time to market is a little slow for my build. And the $600 price tag? Well it is prohibitive.

 

I think they focused too much R&D capital into extraneous gadgets like clouds and lightning, and should have put that money into more and better LEDs, or reducing the cost. 20 LEDs on a $500 or $400 fixture seems paltry, and I still don't need the reds and greens(20% of the fixture). I don5 need a wireless remote control for my lights, either. I want a light fixture that makes corals and clams grow, I don't need it to impress drunk "When you gonna get a nemo" friends.

 

No hate, just my observations which led me go another route.

[PaRKLifE]

I just bought my ai hydra and had it for about a week... So far i love this damn light! I love all the features and the colors it produces. Cant really speak for the corals yet becuase its only been a week, but so far the corals seem to like it.

[Cameron6796]

I understand where everyone is coming from but i just always see all the hate directed at ai. I love the look the hydra gives a tank and yeah the controller is pretty useless and i even considered DIY , but I'm not very handy. Should have ended the original post with a question.

 

Is there anything wrong with the company as a whole or are you just not a fan of the price tag or brand of LEDs put into the unit? (After all the company needs to cover labour parts bills)

[1.0reef]

I don't want to start some fight over nr but I don't understand so many people say "AI is full spectrum but isn't effective" that OSRAM LEDs are a waste of space and energy, I guess it is more of a personal opinion but without factual evidence we cant prove any light is better .

.

I know ill probably get a lot of bad comments on this and that's not what I'm trying to get.

I've seen those comments before!

JMO, I think their layouts are shit and the people who design them have the intelligence of a kid, plus I think some are a bit too overpriced, and way too much hype for them.

 

are you just not a fan of the price tag or brand of LEDs put into the unit?

This, pretty much, fine with the company, dislike their fixtures.

 

Compared to what you can do DIY, they are kinda underpowered.

 

Even their own PAR charts, that they publish, are a bit underwhelming.

 

The Hydra52 is a bit different of course, but their time to market is a little slow for my build. And the $600 price tag? Well it is prohibitive.

 

I think they focused too much R&D capital into extraneous gadgets like clouds and lightning, and should have put that money into more and better LEDs, or reducing the cost. 20 LEDs on a $500 or $400 fixture seems paltry, and I still don't need the reds and greens(20% of the fixture). I don5 need a wireless remote control for my lights, either. I want a light fixture that makes corals and clams grow, I don't need it to impress drunk "When you gonna get a nemo" friends.

 

No hate, just my observations which led me go another route.

This

[Cameron6796]

Okay before this gets out of hand i like the look... The price meh the hype yeah its a little up there and to be honest your right my first thoughts when I saw the hydra was the the layout is not balenced at all, but still no answers to is it a bad company

 

Edit: well that answers my question i guess, and that's what I'm trying to get across is that people ask for advice and one person says radion or AI and instantly people come in and say that light sucks, and others come on and say those light suck. All this does is confuse new users, if you say the razor has great power and colour and the radion is highly controllable but "i " think the radion is too expensive it's more helpful to new users/ reefers. I should have made that clear in the beginning but got a little carried away with the topic of ai ...sorry

 

I guess all the threads could use this kind of basic idea of backing up our thoughts and trying not to confuse the heck out of new users ... And I was there we all were I still kind of am

[Tochtli]

From what I understand, a lot of people don't like their color. But weren't these (AI Sol) the fixture to have a year or two back?

[1.0reef]

Okay before this gets out of hand i like the look... The price meh the hype yeah its a little up there and to be honest your right my first thoughts when I saw the hydra was the the layout is not balenced at all, but still no answers to is it a bad company

I'm fine with their company, I jut think whoever designs the led layouts is idiotic

[Cameron6796]

I'm fine with their company, I jut think whoever designs the led layouts is idiotic

fair enough

 

Btw I hope you understand I'm not trying to pic a fight i just started venting about the hate I've seen towards ai and i just went on . Haha .... Oops

[Tochtli]

I'm genuinely curious here

[zooman72]

No need for "hate" - basically just "fanboys" (or "girls" ) wanting to justify there usage/ purchase...

 

Every light fixture has its "pros" and "cons", but after seeing a good many fixtures (AI's and others) in person, I have never been impressed with the color rendition that they give (the Sols and Nanos - but that is to be expected with the diodes used) or the obvious disco/ spotting of separate colors (primarily the Vegas, but also to an extent the Hydra). The Hydra 52 looks more promising, although I wish they (and other manufacturers) would use quality neutral whites instead of cool whites, use cyan instead of green, and quit using UV diodes (or calling them such when they really aren't), using violets in the 410nm-430nm range... - although the LEDGroupBuy Lumia has done just that hasn't it...

[Semisonyx]

I think it looks like a great light with excellent PAR at 24" and 36x36" footprint... the only downside is that you have nothing to provide any CRI. The only white is XT-E CW? Sure it is effective, but that is very 2010. The thing I like about the Razor is that they did a 1:1 CW:WW to keep from having to add deep red, and provide more light that renders colors a little better.

[defender.TX]

A big problem that I've seen on Nano-Reef is that a lot of people compare AquaIllumination fixtures (and many other brands to be fair) to DIY LED lights. This is a logical mistake. You cannot compare a fixture that was designed and produced by someone else to a fixture that you built yourself. First, with a DIY fixture you are only paying for the component part cost, not any design or assembly because you are doing it yourself. Second, with a fixture like AquaIllumination or EcoTech, you are also paying a design cost for the time and effort they put in to designing the control software. As a software engineer myself I can tell you that they put a lot of time and effort into this. You might not care about cloud effects, lunar cycles, or storms, but a lot of people do and from a software standpoint it's very impressive.

 

So, when you compare a retail fixture like a Hydra or a Radion you can't compare it to DIY solutions - you can only really compare it to other retail fixtures. If you look at AI fixtures from that perspective they are extremely competitive and you get a lot of bang for your buck.

[farkwar]

I can compare or contrast anything I like.

 

And do. Its my buying decision and my money, I don't need anyone's permission.

 

I will bet you, that within 2 years, you will see commercial fixtures, from the leading manufacturers, based on the evil clusters and Lumia cannons we(amateur unpaid hobbyist DIYers) are building now.

 

They are just too ####ing awesome to ignore. Comparatively speaking.

 

Where the manufacturers have it made is not in the LEDs or software (you can get clouds, moon cycles, lightning software for free), its in the housing, the circuit boards, and proprietary heatsinks. Thats really the only advantage they have. Those commercial evil clusters and Lumia/Dreamchip lights they will make in two years will have awesomely cool housings and heatsinks, comparatively speaking.

 

Those are the things that only a mass producer can make cost effectively(I cant even find anyone to anodize a heatsink without it costing an arm and leg).

[zooman72]

Ok - I will bite and compare them to some other commercially produced fixtures, such as the EcoTech Radion and Maxspect Razor - the AI's simply lose out with the color rendition battle, and their attempt to remedy it was "sloppy" - In all fairness, I am not sure if the Hydra 52 will finally be it or not as I have not seen it yet however. If EcoTech would bring down the cost of their fixtures to the current sale prices they become much more acceptable from a cost standpoint (I know, way to be Mr. Obvious... ), but the Razors are already quite "affordable".

 

Also, one other thing to note - we have got to get away from PAR being the sole determining factor for how "valuable" a fixture is. There is an excellent article (I am sure others here have read it) by Dana Riddle in Reefs Magazine that uses actual science ( ) to illuminate ( ) the photosynthetic rate of Pocillopora shallow-water coral, and he found that it maxed out at around 200 PPFD, which means that often times hobbyist may be "overlighting" their corals - something that those of us that have lit tanks with MH or LEDs know is possible... http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/145122-light-intensity-requirements-shallow-tidepool-coral.html

[defender.TX]

I can compare or contrast anything I like.

 

And do. Its my buying decision and my money, I don't need anyone's permission.

 

I will bet you, that within 2 years, you will see commercial fixtures, from the leading manufacturers, based on the evil clusters and Lumia cannons we(amateur unpaid hobbyist DIYers) are building now.

 

They are just too ####ing awesome to ignore. Comparatively speaking.

 

Where the manufacturers have it made is not in the LEDs or software (you can get clouds, moon cycles, lightning software for free), its in the housing, the circuit boards, and proprietary heatsinks. Thats really the only advantage they have. Those commercial evil clusters and Lumia/Dreamchip lights they will make in two years will have awesomely cool housings and heatsinks, comparatively speaking.

 

Those are the things that only a mass producer can make cost effectively(I cant even find anyone to anodize a heatsink without it costing an arm and leg).

 

You as a buyer can compare or contrast anything you want and figure out what is best to your reef tank. You cannot, however, make a blanket statement like "Fixture X is so overpriced and crappy company Y is crazy" when comparing their fixture to DIY lighting because it's apples and oranges. You have to compare it to other non-DIY fixtures...and like I said AI compares quite nicely. The Hydra is $399 for a solid LED fixture. This is literally half price of an EcoTech Radion Pro, of course it's not going to have as great of spectrum or PAR. It sure as hell isn't going to have the same bang for your buck as a DIY light because they actually have engineers on their payroll. That's what you are paying for when you buy that light. You aren't paying for it when you build your own.

 

(I'm not saying you were making those blanket statements by the way, I'm just saying I've seen blanket statements like that been made and they aren't fair to make.)

 

Ok - I will bite and compare them to some other commercially produced fixtures, such as the EcoTech Radion and Maxspect Razor - the AI's simply lose out with the color rendition battle, and their attempt to remedy it was "sloppy" - In all fairness, I am not sure if the Hydra 52 will finally be it or not as I have not seen it yet however. If EcoTech would bring down the cost of their fixtures to the current sale prices they become much more acceptable from a cost standpoint (I know, way to be Mr. Obvious... ), but the Razors are already quite "affordable".

 

Also, one other thing to note - we have got to get away from PAR being the sole determining factor for how "valuable" a fixture is. There is an excellent article (I am sure others here have read it) by Dana Riddle in Reefs Magazine that uses actual science ( ) to illuminate ( ) the photosynthetic rate of Pocillopora shallow-water coral, and he found that it maxed out at around 200 PPFD, which means that often times hobbyist may be "overlighting" their corals - something that those of us that have lit tanks with MH or LEDs know is possible... http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/145122-light-intensity-requirements-shallow-tidepool-coral.html

 

I couldn't agree more with this. Spectrum is at least equally as important as PAR. If you consider that zooxanthellae live inside the cellular structure of the coral there exists a maximum amount of zooxanthellae organisms that can live inside of each gram of coral tissue. Depending on how the coral tissue forms and how much surface area that creates, there will be a maximum amount of PAR per square inch that a coral can absorb - anything over that will be wasted. It's just common sense. It's awesome to see that somebody actually tested that and found the maximum number.

[1.0reef]

Holy shit this argument makes sense!

The one at the Jebao vs MP10 thread was just lolzy

[zooman72]

Holy shit this argument makes sense!

The one at the Jebao vs MP10 thread was just lolzy

 

Yeah, that one quickly deteriorated into "fanboy" BS, so I stayed out of it - no sense to get all riled up over the internet...

 

Please note that even the Radion and Razor still have "warts" so to speak (even though I really like both) - I would love to see cyan instead of green on the Radion, and would like to see a cyan replace at least one of the cool blues on the Razor...

 

I would also like to see the Hydra 52 in person over some corals before I make a judgement...

[Cameron6796]

A big problem that I've seen on Nano-Reef is that a lot of people compare AquaIllumination fixtures (and many other brands to be fair) to DIY LED lights. This is a logical mistake. You cannot compare a fixture that was designed and produced by someone else to a fixture that you built yourself. First, with a DIY fixture you are only paying for the component part cost, not any design or assembly because you are doing it yourself. Second, with a fixture like AquaIllumination or EcoTech, you are also paying a design cost for the time and effort they put in to designing the control software. As a software engineer myself I can tell you that they put a lot of time and effort into this. You might not care about cloud effects, lunar cycles, or storms, but a lot of people do and from a software standpoint it's very impressive.

 

So, when you compare a retail fixture like a Hydra or a Radion you can't compare it to DIY solutions - you can only really compare it to other retail fixtures. If you look at AI fixtures from that perspective they are extremely competitive and you get a lot of bang for your buck.

 

This^

[Cameron6796]

Yeah I'm also kinda glad this didn't just turn into a big mess... After all i started it so it would be on me haha. I would just like to mention that everyone has some valid point, we all are elaborating on our side of the argument which helps prove our point. I personally like the hydra 52 over a tank, and yeah it is lacking when it comes to spectrum even I'll say that. Also i just want to clarify AI doesn't make my favourite fixture, my favourite fixture based on look is the radion ( the price not so much ) when it comes to price AI or razor. Only reason why I want to avoid the razor is because I don't think corals get as nice of colour under just blues and whites

[zooman72]

You know you can get a brand-new Radion Gen 1 for $500 right, and a Gen 2 for $550? Kind of lessens the cost argument somewhat...

 

As for the Razor only using blues and whites - it actually uses 3 types of "blues" and 2 types of "whites", which can make a significant difference in color rendition when compared to the "old standby" cool white/ royal blue mixtures...

[Cameron6796]

I know but buying the old version kind of renders them obsolete, and I'm pretty sure the gen 2 is 650 but that's beside the point. Also I knew the razor had 5 different colours and that the WW are the source of reds etc

 

I fact when I get my nuvo 24 I'm probably going to use a razor since it has better spread. (I know call me hypocritical ) i said id like to avoid just the different whites and blue but the light does have the red and green spectrum just not as "pronounced" or "direct" as the hydra or radion

[zooman72]

I know but buying the old version kind of renders them obsolete, and I'm pretty sure the gen 2 is 650 but that's beside the point. Also I knew the razor had 5 different colours and that the WW are the source of reds etc

 

The Gen 1 is no more obsolete than the AI Sol, Nano, Vega, etc., and the Gen 2 (with better diodes and the TIR lenses) is currently on sale for $550 at multiple vendors.

 

Also, I do not see the major issue with warm whites instead of standalone deep red diodes, at least from a color rendition standpoint - there is a reason deep reds are kept to a minimum - they become distracting if used more than at a minimum. Also, the warm whites contribute more than just red - they dip over into the orange and yellow spectrum a good bit, so that they give a wider color spectrum, which some think aids proper color rendition (i.e. filling in the gaps so to speak).

[Cameron6796]

Hmm really so I should buy a razor instead of a radion or hydra can I connect the razor up to a apex

 

Ugh this light stuff is confusing

[zooman72]

Hmm really so I should buy a razor instead of a radion or hydra can I connect the razor up to a apex

 

Ugh this light stuff is confusing

 

I am not going to tell you what lighting to buy - I just gave my opinion of the lights usually mentioned in comparison.

 

Lighting choices are quite subjective, so pick what you like and can afford, and if for some reason you don't like it, sell it and try something else...

 

Also, the Razor has it's own onboard controller, so there is no input (or need) for outside controllers.