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looking for advice/feedback on 2.5 cookie jar pico


jimnyo

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***11/16/2013 EDITED SUBJECT LINE to more accurately reflect thread**

ok, so people can judge all they want (although i hope you won't, since this is a nano/pico community, so i figger you'll be a bit more forgiving), but i caught brandon429's youtube video of his vase reef a couple years ago and lusted after it and tucked away the idea for later.

 

fast forward to this summer and i decided it was time. happened to find a FABULOUS lfs so i went and bought live rock, live sand and their saltwater to start a cycle with an air pump and 4" airstone bar. oh yeah, i forgot to mention it's in a 2.5 cookie jar. then i get hom eto research what to do next and get all these warnings about NOT doing this as a firsttime venture into saltwater reefing. whoops. too late. :D

 

anyway, at first i was just gonna see what came w/the live rock. i've got amphipods and aptasia (of course) and it's been about a month. i think i may have accidentally killed some stuff w/a rookie mistake a couple weeks ago: i was revamping the aquascape and moving rock with some brand new latex dishwashing gloves. the water crept into the top of the gloves and then when i lifted my hands, the water and latex powder accidentally dripped out of the gloves into the aquarium. the aptasia looked like it was gonna croak (i think...i don't know what dying anemones look like), but then it came back to life and is stronger than ever. there was previously a thin, transparent sheet that looked like a ghostly white film but then that disappeared too, so maybe it died from the latex powder. i also saw amphipod bodies floating after that. but then i saw some crawling around in the sand last week, so maybe they came back?

 

last week, my lfs tested the water, said it was all cycled, yay! i bought some stuff b/c i couldn't resist anymore: a peppermint shrimp to eat the aptasia, a cerith, a nassarius snail and one blue/green mushroom coral. i'm not planning on doing ANY fish b/c i'm not skilled enough yet and i need a low-maintenance tank. so i have a few questions:

 

1. i'm confused about water changes. brandon429, i know you are a proponent of 100% water changes weekly, but then some others (i think maybe el fab?) say 50%. then i thought i read somewhere about instead of water changing, just putting the thing in the sink and slowly flushing it w/saltwater? and i also thought i read somewhere that someone was getting by w/only monthly water changes? is that possible? i have a lid on, but there is a crack b/c the airline props it a tiny bit open. there's hardly any evaporation. i think i only topped off once a teeny tiny bit in the month it was cycling.

2. is this shrimp too big for the jar? i didn't realize he'd be so gigantic in it until i got home. he doesn't want to seem to go near the big aptasia in front, but he's gotten all the little ones i think.

3. what the heck do i do next? more macroalgae to keep nitrates down? they were a little high this week, when i stupidly dropped a fish flake or two into the jar. any other suggestions? i've definitely read a LOT of stuff, but i'm having trouble sorting out what to do next. thanks for all your help and sorry for the novel!

 

well, i couldn't get the peppermint shrimp to make a great cameo (of course)...but it's probably a good 2 inches long. the first picture is what i started off with, then the later ones are after i stocked it this week. the third one is the closeup of the mushroom coral...WHAT is that red stuff in front of it to the right? please tell me it's not cyano. the coral was more open today but i took these by turning on the lights after they went off, so i think it's still in 'sleepytime' mode.

 

oh and the lightbulb is the 50/50, the sandbed is 1.25" deep here and the whole jar to the top of the lid knob is about 17" tall.

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I would try and get rid of the Aptasia, either remove that rock or kill it another way(lots of options). Second, people only crucify new reefers who do stuff like this because they have to assume the husbandry and reaserch/tenacity of the new hobbiest is lacking. Anyone who can do research,create a detailed plan, and follow instructions, can have any size tank. Anymore, this hobby is down to a much more exact science, so there tends to be a more exact set of guideline. Follow those and you'll be ok. 100 percent water changes might be excessive, I donno. All I am sure of is the water needs to match EXACTLY if doing a high percent water chang, otherwise you could shock the system(even more risky in that small of a tank). Pods will mutiply, so likely they will come back quickly. I'd be much more careful with anything that can contaminate your tank(like your gloves), imagine it like this. Take a glass of water and a bathtub full of water, now add two drops of blue foodcoloring. In the glass, the blue food coloring causes a much more drastic change, this also applies to water/tank volume. The more water the less small accidents effect the system, that's why people suggest larger tanks for beginners. I'm not experienced with picos, maybe someone will chime in. Good luck, looks great so far!

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thank you for the help! yeah, that was a dumb mistake. do you think the green is coralline too, or the 'wrong' kind of algae? i've definitely been researching (staying up past midnight several times on these forums to read...which is fascinating, but i pay for it every morning, uhhhh....) but there's SO much info, i'm having a hard time disseminating into what i should actually do. plus, everybody's got a different method/opinion. for example, i do hear that b/c of the size of the tank, it is more of an 'exact science', as you put it. but then some folks were saying don't tinker w/it too much b/c nature fluctuates as well. both sides make sense to me, but they're completely antithetical to each other, haha!!

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thank you! i'm now kinda glad that mr. peppermint shrimp seems large for the tank b/c he's trying to tackle the large aptasia and keeps getting stung, i think. is that ok? the aptasia closes up in response but something it's doing (i assume) is warding off the shrimp, who can't seem to gobble it up. i'm kinda intrigued to see who wins, but should i be concerned that it will harm the shrimp, or that the shrimp will starve? the nice guy at the lfs gave me some kind of dried food that he said should take care of 'everyone' in the tank...

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I have had my jar going on almost 6 months now. I was doing almost a 100% water change every week for the first few months. I have backed off to doing 50% once a week and it seems to be doing just great. The most important things are to make sure the Specific Gravity of the water for the change is as exact as you can get it to what is in the jar. I keep my Jar at 1.024. Second most important thing is make sure the temp of the make up water is dead on to the temp of whats in the jar. Use a digital temp probe they are like $10.

 

Do not put ANY fish in the Jar! I cant stress this enough. It just won't handle it. The shrimp should be ok as well as snails and a maybe some very small blue or scarlet hermit crabs. Other than that corals only.

 

I would also recommend you increase the light by either adding a second 50/50 CF or upgrade to an PAR38 LED bulb. That 50/50 will only be bright enough for low light corals & Inverts.

 

I would also recommend a small pump instead of the airstone I have the hydor 200

http://reefbuilders.com/2009/01/03/hydor-pico-mini-pumps-want-to-become-friends-with-your-nano/

and once you get it really going and have a lot of corals in there get a small $50 UPS from officemax or office Depot for when the power goes out. A small UPS for a VOIP setup should keep a small 3.5 watt pump running for a hour or two. After that you're stirring it with a spoon or blowing bubbles with a straw. ;-)

 

Get rid of the Aiptasia with kalk paste or lemon juice. Watch out for planaria later on when you start to feed regularly. If you get planaria use 3-5 drops of flatworm exit wait an hour and do a 50% water change. I feed my corals in the jar twice a week. Tuesdays and Saturdays. I use 1-2 drops of Phyto and 1-2 drops of oyster feast and a few shavings of some frozen Cyclopeeze. I feed a little heavier on Saturday a hour or so before the 50% water change.

 

Weekly 50% water changes should keep everything in check once the cycle is done. I would not add macro algae. Also do not add any supplements. Everything will be replenished with the water change. Resist, resist, resist adding anything the guy at the LFS tries to sell you. Just buy good quality salt mix and everything will be at the right levels. Maybe later on once you have it full of corals you could add a little buffer or calcium but only if tests show that it's needed.

 

Also, I do not wear any gloves. I make sure my hands are clean and make sure you don't have any soap residue on your hands. Wash your hands and rinse them very very well. Take off any rings they may hold a little soap. After you're all done then wash your hands again before you rub your eyes or pick your nose. ;-) Do not put your hands in there if you have any open sores or cuts because they will get infected and if you have a bunch of Zoanthids/Palys later there is a small chance of neurotoxin. If your jar is cycled try a small frag of Zoanthids or other button polyps and see how they do. add things slowly one small frag a week or so. I would go with cheap tough stuff though and not jump right into delicate SPS.

 

And yes if you've seen it I'm the guy off Reddit with the Clam in the Jar.

Overall your Jar is looking good and if its cycled i would get a small $10-15 frag of some zoanthids next to try.

one last thing after looking at the pics a second time... i would add just little more water to the jar to get it to the line where the Jar narrows. when it's this small every little bit helps plus then I have a good referance to see if any has evaporated. Just remember not to plunge your hand down in there or it may overflow out the top when it's that full.

Get some long tongs that helps too for minor adjustments and do get a digital thermometer. Be patient it will be a good 4 months before its all settled in and starts to get somewhat mature.

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hi rondo, thank you soooo much for all the info! so it brings up more questions (surprise surprise, haha):

1. i definitely don't want fish, nor even crabs. i'm just going for corals and eventually maybe a couple more inverts. but why no macroalgae? i thought it was good to keep oxygen up and help w/nitrate levels? and i have an airpump (i think it's called a whisper something...nanowhisper? for a 10 gallon tank, even though mine is 2.5) plugged in, then some tubing then that rectangular airstone. is that different than what you recommend?

2. mr. peppermint shrimp took care of the aptasia. it was quite entertaining to see him go at it everyday...the aptasia was just out of reach on the front glass and the shrimp would hop off the rock, jump up from the bottom and still not be able to get it. but somehow, he did and it's gone, completely clean, today. but i haven't seen the shrimp all day either, so i don't know what that's about...

3. how do you know how much to feed? i've only got 1 shroom, the shrimp, a cerinth and a nassarius.

4. i just use the saltwater the lfs sells. is that a bad idea? if i mix my own, then i have to get another pump, etc. and it's sooooo much easier to just buy it...

5. the reason i keep the water just below the curve is a) i use that as a visual marker of the level instead of the top and also b/c of the overflow issue you mentioned but also, brandon the pico jar guy pointed out that if you could keep the lid on the inside of a curve like that, you would get much less/no salt creep. of course, i can't get the lid INSIDE my jar b/c it sits on the lip, but i thought perhaps keeping the water level below that curve would reduce the salt creep a little bit b/c it would hit that inner curve and run back down instead of my lid and coming out the crack between the lid and lip. so far it seems to be working b/c i get very little evaporation and salt creep. any thoughts on that?

 

thank you again!!

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't recommend an air stone and air pump like Brandon. I use a small 50-70 GPH submersible pump. No air bubbles no salt creep. No micro bubbles. Evaporation just collects in the lid and drips back down in. I don't break the surface. I do point the pump towards the surface but it doesn't make any bubbles. I don't seem to have any issues with o2 or co2.

 

As far as the macro algae, its more of a personal choice I suppose. I wouldn't because I don't think with a water change every week or two than it will be needed to use up excess nutrients or even have any nutrients to use. Plus it's bad enough to trim the Xenia every month or so. If the algae did take off you'd be tearing up the jar ripping it out, and finally macro algae has a strange habit of unexpected mass die off.

 

Feeding is a hard to pin down and accurately recommend topic. I have to just say its a gut feeling. No pun intended. I do not feed very much. It's like 2-3 drops of some oyster feast and a drop or two of phyto and just a few super tiny shavings of some frozen Cyclopeeze. I'm thinking of trying some freeze dried reef chili since its impossible for me to use up fresh or frozen foods before they go bad and I hate wasting it.

Until you get more in the jar I wouldn't worry about the cerith or the mushroom I would just feed the shrimp and the nassarius will live off the shrimps left overs.

 

The water you buy at the LFS is probably ok but I just have to do it myself so I know exactly what I'm getting. It's probably a whole lot more convenient, I just wouldn't because if everything crashed I would blame the water. The new kid mixed it, Some contaminate got in it yada yada.

 

Also sorry about answering you questions out of order, my brain is out of order. LOL

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  • 2 weeks later...

hi rondo, no apologies needed! i am just glad to get the feedback! i started a thread there so you can see what i've been up to and if you have more thoughts, i'd love to hear them. sorry it took me so long to get back to you, for some reason email notifications aren't working for me (stupid yahoo mail). http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/334008-advice-for-noob-on-cookie-jar-pico-reef/

 

how often do you feed?

 

that is a really good point about the macroalgae and now that i think about it, it'd be in the way when i do my water changes. i also never thought about the water pump not creating salt creep, so thank you for that gigantic tip. i was just looking for a cheap easy way to start and i like bubbles. :) how far down do you put the pump? are you talking about something like the hydor koralia nano: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23591

 

or something like this: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=25139. if the latter, do i have to attach anything to it or just pop the whole thing in the tank as is?

 

thank you!!

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  • 1 month later...

ok, so an update:

photo #2070 is a shot from september, when i got a gsp and some zoas.

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this is a tank shot from tonight:

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i do have some questions about specific corals, which i will post in a minute b/c of the photo limit.

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so this is the current state of my gsp. :(


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the purple parts are reef putty, where i tried to putty it standing on edge b/c it had polyps on both sides of the mat. the white IN the purple is super glue residue, but the lower right half in the first picture is mat that's turned gray.

 

in the second picture, the upper left is mat that's turned black.

 

is this a goner? i keep hearing about how tough gsp's are, but i think i may have killed it. i did a dip tonight for 15 mins. in kent lugol's solution, diluted as directed on bottle for dip (5 drops to 2 cups) and i put it on the sand with just the puttied part below sand.

 

 

ok, next, the right half of the tank. sorry, i know these aren't crystal clear shots, but the drawback of using an actual cookie jar is that the glass is rounded and super thick, which distorts things.

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so this is the current state of my gsp. :(

 

attachicon.gifhttp://www.nano-reef.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=131051'>IMAG2255.jpg

attachicon.gifhttp://www.nano-reef.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=131052'>IMAG2256.jpg

 

the purple parts are reef putty, where i tried to putty it standing on edge b/c it had polyps on both sides of the mat. the white IN the purple is super glue residue, but the lower right half in the first picture is mat that's turned gray.

 

in the second picture, the upper left is mat that's turned black.

 

is this a goner? i keep hearing about how tough gsp's are, but i think i may have killed it. i did a dip tonight for 15 mins. in kent lugol's solution, diluted as directed on bottle for dip (5 drops to 2 cups) and i put it on the sand with just the puttied part below sand.

ok, next, the right half of the tank. sorry, i know these aren't crystal clear shots, but the drawback of using an actual cookie jar is that a) the glass is rounded and super thick, which distorts things.

 

It does better in water ;)

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whoops, it posted before i was done. as you can see in the right half of the tank, i got a new gsp, that won't open yet. to the right is leftover reef putty from something i placed but is gone (it was a teeny tiny zoa and i accidentally hit it w/my siphon, destroying it), above it is white jb waterweld b/c i ran out of reef putty and i discovered, sucks and doesn't work as well as reef putty. on the sand is a new flower pot which was a steal at lfs and he said it'd be great as an indicator to tell me when something was not right w/my tank conditions. to the left is the dying gsp i asked about previously, but that was pre-dip and move. on the rock above it is a green favia...is it supposed to be that light? is there anyway to make the color more intense? and then to the far left is a zoa on reef putty. as you can see, i'm quite the noob and do a pretty crappy job w/getting the frags on my LR. any thoughts?

 

here's a closeup of the flower pot. it's been mostly open since i brought it home yesterday, unlike the gsp, but it looked weird for it's photo op:


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below is a closeup of the green favia. to the left is a blue cyphas. as you can see, i there's a bit of damage to it where a couple polyps (is that the correct term?) broke off and are missing. i think it has green algae between the polyps, and also, it's not blue!! i know that coral shops have different lighting, etc. but there shot of this frag shows bright blue heads/polyps and a teal mat with tinges of magenta on various edges. so, 1) is this frag sick? and 2) can i fix it?

 

this is the frag that was in the first shot w/the bright green zoas i got from the lfs in september. it seems to be doing well. behind it is a favite which i THINK has been getting plumper, but you can see where it's got some white on the front left. that white spot used to be bigger, extending along the front to the right, so i think it's getting better, but do you know what that is and what can i do about it? to the right is another polyp which also is trucking along.

 

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i also picked up this little rock w/what looked like teeny tiny blue zoas or something on it yesterday, but they also haven't opened up since arriving home. they are miniscule and again, the crappy glass doesn't help, sorry.

 

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ok, another picture of the favites, close up of cyphas damage and zoa. i don't think that's putty below the favites, just coralline (as well as on the rock behind it).

 

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here's another set of zoas, but noob question--how do you all get shots from the top w/o glare or shadows from your lights? i couldn't, for the life of me, get any good shots. if i used the flash, it was even worse. man, that waterweld stuff sucks big time and it's ugly as heck too.

 

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some nightcrawlers

 

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ok, last round of questions (i think):

 

this is probably my happiest clump of polyps. they are right smack in the stream of the 4" airstone, so i guess i was kind of surprised they liked such heavy flow (well, heavy at least relative to the rest of the tank). i noticed after i took this, that there are miniscule little brown circles at the base of the polyps, 2 to the right and 1 to the left of the front most polyp. what are these?

 

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on the back of one of my LR, i have always noticed there's something that looks like this, except super pale--so pale, it looked like the base of the rock, so not as bright white as this (i stole this off of someone's avatar--i forgot to take a pic of what i'm talking about). is it a dead coral skeleton?

 

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lastly, my mushroom and the nightcrawlers again. is that algae to the left of the shrimp and below the mushroom? i have 3 snails, but they never seem to like to climb on the rock. i only see their snorkels sticking out of the sand, lazy bastards, haha. how do i get them to eat more algae--feed less? i do a heavy feeding before water changes, first once a week, but last week i started doing 2x/week, at some recs to fatten up corals. any thoughts?

 

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thank you again in advance for all your help. i really am so grateful for everything i'm learning from this forum. sorry for the long posts!!

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sorry I didnt get back to you on this sooner.

I use a hydor pico pump i use the model 200 you can't find them anymore so this is the closest equivalent.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Hydor-Centrifical-All-Purpose-Aquariums-Terrariums/dp/B001AVDQO0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1384983898&sr=8-2&keywords=hydor+pico

 

that 240 gal Hour Hydor power head will turn your jar into a washing machine don't get that.

 

I put the pump in the back at the top and cut a small square of filter pad and put it on the intake to help with a little mechanical filtration and to keep and little critters from geting sucked into the pump.

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  • 7 months later...

OK, so I am a month away from the 1 year anniversary of my pico and I have been a very bad girl. First, I neglected my tank for probably at least a couple months. Surprisingly, I didn't lose anything. Ironically, when I WAS taking care of my tank, I lost a flowerpot (darned shrimp ate it), a cyphas, 2 favites, 2 zoas and I can't even remember what else. Granted, the stupid shrimp was to blame for at least half of those losses. I'm kind of glad he mysteriously died while we were gone on spring break. But now my tank is overrun with little pods, which annoys me.

 

So to celebrate, I cleaned out the tank and went gangbusters at the Reef Raft live sale this weekend. Tomorrow, I'm hoping to put in: purple/orange daisy cloves, blue mushroom (the kind with a few little bumps on them), an orange rimmed ricordea with a purple center, candy apple porites and a red rampage monti. I would love for folks to help me with where to put them. I know the monti needs to be higher up, but that's all. Especially VeganBrian, I remember you wrote that fabulous post on how to build aquascapes, so you clearly know how to place things--I'm terrible at it. Please feel free to mark up my photos with directions of where to put stuff.

 

Here's some pix:

 

this was my first colony ever and it's happy as a clam

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red/purply mushroom w/2 babies underneath, on left and right

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these were called "nightcrawlers". one question: if i move them higher, will they shorten? I don't love the long stems

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I notice the GSP is trying to take over the white orbs in the back. How do i get them off and can I frag them/sell them/give them away?

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FTS

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Thank you for all your help!!

 

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Nice little tank! I just set up a 0.5g betta tank as a pico reef. We'll see how that goes lol

 

Yes to moving the nightcrawler's up. They are reaching for more light.

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Thanks! I moved the nightcrawlers up. Will they be able to shorten again? Exactly how long/tall are they supposed to be?

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Thanks! I moved the nightcrawlers up. Will they be able to shorten again? Exactly how long/tall are they supposed to be?

 

Yup, they will shorten back up to your typical zoa/paly height :)

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