KG's Reef² Coming Down

[kguske2]

Day 39: took my water to the LFS to see what they say about it. They told me that my PH was pretty low and that I should add buffer to raise it, and that it appears that the cycle was trying and I may have added ammonia to the point where the tank couldn't process it all.

 

His advice was to raise PH and let it sit for a week or two then retest and see where I stand. Thinks that by the the ammonia and nitrite will be at 0 and I should be good.

 

Hmmmm

 

[kguske2]

So after reading around, seems like there is a lot of mixed opinions about dosing anything to raise PH. Some believe in it and some say that it adds unneeded stuff to the water. Not sure what I'm going to do.

 

I don't see how waiting a week with adding nothing will help at all. To my understanding it would only allow the ammonia to drop to zero, which would then stall the cycle. Am I wrong in thinking that?

[Roshan8768]

If I were you, I wouldn't worry about the pH at all for right now, fairly unrelated to the progress of your cycle.... my tank has consistently been at 7.8, and no real issues to speak of.

 

At 30 something days in you have a sizeable population of bacteria in there, just not enough to cope with the continuos addition of ammonia that you are dosing. I would leave the tank alone for 3-4 days with no more additions, do a 20% water change and add your CUC. They should accelerate the cycle for you, and help you get through this a lot faster.

[kguske2]

If I were you, I wouldn't worry about the pH at all for right now, fairly unrelated to the progress of your cycle.... my tank has consistently been at 7.8, and no real issues to speak of.

 

At 30 something days in you have a sizeable population of bacteria in there, just not enough to cope with the continuos addition of ammonia that you are dosing. I would leave the tank alone for 3-4 days with no more additions, do a 20% water change and add your CUC. They should accelerate the cycle for you, and help you get through this a lot faster.

 

Once the CUC is added I would stop adding ammonia all together correct?

[willyboy]

Yes.

[kguske2]

Yes.

 

Obviously things never go perfectly but I was always waiting for the usual ability of the tank to go from around 2ppm ammonia to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite in 12 hours or so. Or at least that was what I had read about the way I was cycling the tank.

 

By stopping adding ammonia for multiple days, should I go straight ahead with the CUC, or do you think it would be best to then add some ammonia to see how fast it can be processed. Dont want any innocent snails dying because my tank isnt ready!

[Tochtli]

Just curious, but why do you keep dosing ammonia? Is it to be sure that the biological filter can handle the frequent addition of so much ammonia (for heavy feeding down the road)? I've never heard about doing this and am interested in the science and thought behind this method.

[kguske2]

Just curious, but why do you keep dosing ammonia? Is it to be sure that the biological filter can handle the frequent addition of so much ammonia (for heavy feeding down the road)? I've never heard about doing this and am interested in the science and thought behind this method.

 

Maybe I had read wrong but through reading different sources I was under the impression that I should dose ammonia when the amount got near 0ppm to continue the cycle. It was to continue "feeding" the bacteria that would convert to nitrite. Once I was able to dose ammonia to around 2ppm and the tank was able to convert it to nitrite and nitrate, so essentially go from 2ppm ammonia to 0 and 0 nitrite, the tank would be considered cycled. Don't know the exact science behind it, only that it was a method I had read from numerous different places, but again, may have misunderstood.

 

My thought was if I stopped dosing ammonia, the bacteria converting it to nitrite would have nothing to feed on and would die off, therefore stalling the cycle.

[Tochtli]

Maybe I had read wrong but through reading different sources I was under the impression that I should dose ammonia when the amount got near 0ppm to continue the cycle. It was to continue "feeding" the bacteria that would convert to nitrite. Once I was able to dose ammonia to around 2ppm and the tank was able to convert it to nitrite and nitrate, so essentially go from 2ppm ammonia to 0 and 0 nitrite, the tank would be considered cycled. Don't know the exact science behind it, only that it was a method I had read from numerous different places, but again, may have misunderstood. My thought was if I stopped dosing ammonia, the bacteria converting it to nitrite would have nothing to feed on and would die off, therefore stalling the cycle.

That's an interesting point there about bacterial die off. I suppose that bacteria dying off would in turn produce more ammonia for the remainder to feed on...but this seems like it would result in a very, very long cycle, or it would eat itself off and you'd be back where you started--maybe. I always figured that you would just toss in some sort of ammonia once, and let the cycle progress from there. On the other hand, it seems like dosing more ammonia also slows the cycle. Good food for thought.

Do you have any of your original sources?

[Roshan8768]

Obviously things never go perfectly but I was always waiting for the usual ability of the tank to go from around 2ppm ammonia to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite in 12 hours or so. Or at least that was what I had read about the way I was cycling the tank.

 

By stopping adding ammonia for multiple days, should I go straight ahead with the CUC, or do you think it would be best to then add some ammonia to see how fast it can be processed. Dont want any innocent snails dying because my tank isnt ready!

 

If you were going to add the CUC, I would just wait a few days (w/ no dosing), do the water change, and then stop dosing ammonia for good at this point. Then add add the CUC, they will most likely be fine, provided there is food for them in the tank.

 

I am also interested to see the original literature that you're using as your source for your method of cycling. My thinking is that it would take a really long time for a tank with a completely dry start like yours to populate with enough bacteria to process the ammonia at the rate you mention. You would probably have had a faster?? cycle if you had used some high quality live rock with several strains of well established bacteria?? All my theory, no basis to it haha

[kguske2]

That's an interesting point there about bacterial die off. I suppose that bacteria dying off would in turn produce more ammonia for the remainder to feed on...but this seems like it would result in a very, very long cycle, or it would eat itself off and you'd be back where you started--maybe. I always figured that you would just toss in some sort of ammonia once, and let the cycle progress from there. On the other hand, it seems like dosing more ammonia also slows the cycle. Good food for thought.

Do you have any of your original sources?

 

I'll look on my computer tomorrow, I should've saved them somewhere in my reading list!

 

If you were going to add the CUC, I would just wait a few days (w/ no dosing), do the water change, and then stop dosing ammonia for good at this point. Then add add the CUC, they will most likely be fine, provided there is food for them in the tank.

 

I am also interested to see the original literature that you're using as your source for your method of cycling. My thinking is that it would take a really long time for a tank with a completely dry start like yours to populate with enough bacteria to process the ammonia at the rate you mention. You would probably have had a faster?? cycle if you had used some high quality live rock with several strains of well established bacteria?? All my theory, no basis to it haha

 

Again, I'll look tomorrow. As for food for the CUC, I don't not have any algae in the tank, so not sure what food sources they would have, unless I added fish food but don't know if they go for that. Also haven't been running a light cycle so may be time to start that up.

[Roshan8768]

Yeah I would go ahead and start up the light cycle so you can get through the initial diatom phase. It would be a good idea to run the lights for a week so that your herbivores will have some food in the tank... typically only nassarius go for the meaty food IME

[willyboy]

I too was not familiar with the method of dosing ammonia steadily while the tank is cycling. I did find a post stickied over on RC that mentioned what you have done.

 

When I cycled my tank I just chunked a piece of frozen fish or shrimp and that got my cycle started, plus I had a healthy amount of awesome LR, I didn't have much of a cycle at all. I think if you let your ammonia lower over the next few days and then get your CUC you should be fine.

[kguske2]

So I turn on the light for one day, and I may have algae growth! Here are some pics. The stuff I can see is all white, no color to it at all.

 

 

 

Woot! Something's happening!

[kguske2]

That's an interesting point there about bacterial die off. I suppose that bacteria dying off would in turn produce more ammonia for the remainder to feed on...but this seems like it would result in a very, very long cycle, or it would eat itself off and you'd be back where you started--maybe. I always figured that you would just toss in some sort of ammonia once, and let the cycle progress from there. On the other hand, it seems like dosing more ammonia also slows the cycle. Good food for thought.

Do you have any of your original sources?

 

 

I am also interested to see the original literature that you're using as your source for your method of cycling. My thinking is that it would take a really long time for a tank with a completely dry start like yours to populate with enough bacteria to process the ammonia at the rate you mention. You would probably have had a faster?? cycle if you had used some high quality live rock with several strains of well established bacteria?? All my theory, no basis to it haha

 

Here are a few of the pages I had read about the fishless cycling I had been doing. Again, may have misinterpreted somewhere but who knows.

 

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/the-almost-complete-guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html

 

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling

 

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle/19627-ammonia-instructions-fishless-cycle.html

[Roshan8768]

Nice, good start leave that light on! It may be just me, but most of your links look like they're made for freshwater aquariums? Although conceptually the process is similar, I am not sure if a reef aquarium would be able to process that amount of ammonia as quickly (since the rock does the majority of the filtration). As I mentioned earlier, this is where the porousness of your dry rock comes into play, as well as the quality (or lack there of) of your live rock. This probably has a part to play in why a saltwater cycle regardless of whether fish-less or not, takes much longer than a freshwater (I've used established filters and set up a new tank and added almost all of my fish on the same day multiple times, and have had almost no losses). Just something to think about... as usual, just my interpretation

[kguske2]

Nice, good start leave that light on! It may be just me, but most of your links look like they're made for freshwater aquariums? Although conceptually the process is similar, I am not sure if a reef aquarium would be able to process that amount of ammonia as quickly (since the rock does the majority of the filtration). As I mentioned earlier, this is where the porousness of your dry rock comes into play, as well as the quality (or lack there of) of your live rock. This probably has a part to play in why a saltwater cycle regardless of whether fish-less or not, takes much longer than a freshwater (I've used established filters and set up a new tank and added almost all of my fish on the same day multiple times, and have had almost no losses). Just something to think about... as usual, just my interpretation

Now that you mention it, that is something I never even thought about but definitely could see making a difference. Oops. Rather make that type of oversight in the early stages however!

[Tochtli]

Here are a few of the pages I had read about the fishless cycling I had been doing. Again, may have misinterpreted somewhere but who knows.

 

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/the-almost-complete-guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html

 

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling

 

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle/19627-ammonia-instructions-fishless-cycle.html

This seems especially effective if you are very patient and want to add a lot of fish and fast. Sounds like if you wait longer initially you can add all of your fish in one go. Compared to the non-dosing version in which you cycle faster but have a smaller biological filter and will in turn have to add fish slowly. I suppose it's a fair trade off, and may be more beneficial down the road (i.e. tank reaches maturity faster). On the other hand, if you decide to add fish slowly (to throughly research what you like, learn your fish's "personality" ect) you would lose the large initial biofilter and have to add slowly like the non-dosing cycle, maybe. Anyways, these are just my conclusions.

 

I'm interested in seeing how your tank develops! Good luck and thanks for those references!

[kguske2]

So onto Day 42. Photoperiod started. Algae appears to be starting to grow and finally readings are where they should be.

 

Ammonia: 0ppm

Nitrite: 0ppm

Nitrate: 160 ppm

PH: 7.8

 

I figure this should mean the cycle is winding down but I can't be for sure!

[Roshan8768]

Yeah, looks good! Most likely your good to go, I would wait 2 days, then do a 20% water change and get your CUC. Almost there!

[kguske2]

Yeah, looks good! Most likely your good to go, I would wait 2 days, then do a 20% water change and get your CUC. Almost there!

 

Only 20%? I was thinking there would be a greater % needed to lower the nitrates to an acceptable level.

[Roshan8768]

Only 20%? I was thinking there would be a greater % needed to lower the nitrates to an acceptable level.

 

 

I would do a 20-50% and see where that leaves you... you may end up needing more. I personally think 2 * 20% would be enough to get it down a fair bit to add CUC

[kguske2]

Day 45! Ammonia and nitrite still zero since nothing is in the tank. Going to do a 20% water change today and see where that brings nitrates down to.

 

My rocks are all covered in white fuzzy stuff! Hence my tank has fuzzy rocks!

[kguske2]

So after the water change, the nitrate is now at 80ppm. Gonna do another water change to bring it lower.

 

Should I be seeing any diatoms or anything? Right now I just have white string looking things growing here and there

[Roshan8768]

You may or may not have a diatom phase... just wait it out and see. The white stuff on your rocks doesn't look like algae, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. You want to add your CUC ASAP otherwise you could have a little mini cycle if you wait a week and then add a bunch... I would say one more water change and then get them in there

Also, how many hours are you running your lights for right now?