CNCreef Asis Pro 824 LED/T5HO Evil Cluster Hybrid

[jedimasterben]

Or even an "Introduction to LEDs" thread that discusses all the basics and touches on the advanced stuff then have a mod sticky it

I've got a four or five page Word document right now that is an update to Evil's LED guide sticky.

[MeepNand]

I think I remember you saying something about color consistency among the XM-L being an issue, right?

 

And with my array, keeping to the same maximum power output levels, I would need about 12x XM-L chips at 2.8A over just the main tank. That's $8 each, roughly, and to drive them, I'd need two drivers along the lines of Meanwell ELN-60-27D to run them around 2.8A each, they're about $30 each. Optics are another buck apiece, so that brings the total to around $175ish, compared to the $95 it costs to buy and run the Bridgelux chips.

So where do you get drivers for the bridgelux chips? They seem to run at high voltages in the 30+v range.

[blasterman]

I think I remember you saying something about color consistency among the XM-L being an issue, right?

 

Not so much bin consistency as availability. I'm sure an 85 CRI, 4000-3500k XM-L would look just as good as a Bridgelux. The problem though is *getting* that XM-L. Order neutral XM-Ls from the typical reef sources and they are all over the place in terms of color temp, tint and CRI, and the odds are 'hell no' of getting a high CRI. Cutter can get you more specific bins if you need be though. Also, XM-L's pretty much require optics because their off axis color is utterly horrendous.

 

Now, the MTG2 should fix a lot of this, and they allow for more flexible voltage matching while Bridgelux gives you pretty much one option. Double the price per lumen though, and contrary to the Cree fan boys over at RC trying to brain wash people the MTG2 is not more efficient than Bridgelux Arrays. Not sure if tech is stalling or something ,but I think math skills are.

 

The high forward voltage of the Bridgelux arrays can be a problem with some designs, but an ELN-48 will still drive two of them in parallel with no issues. I have eight BXRA-40E0950-Bs running in parallel off a fixed voltage Mean Well which works fine if you adjust it right and use common sense. 9 thousand lumens at 3500k off a single 4' aluminum c-channel for less than $150 bucks in parts. Why are we still using FL tubes for interior lighting again? But no, you aren't going to drive too many 1500lumen Bridgelux arrays in series

 

Wakefield has some really nice radial heatsinks for Bridgelux arrays up to 35watts or so...passive.

 

Let's not forget the Rebel M either.

 

Yeah, the Aquastyle Bridgelux chips don't make a lot of sense. Basically the Aquastyle kits sell the LEDs for cheap which is fine, but look at the prices Steve is selling Rebel ES's for. Color is light years better with the rebels.

 

 

[jedimasterben]

So where do you get drivers for the bridgelux chips? They seem to run at high voltages in the 30+v range.

LDD-H at 48V. The 950-B run at about 22v, the 1350-B is around 32v. Any driver will do as long as it gives sufficient voltage.

 

Not so much bin consistency as availability. I'm sure an 85 CRI, 4000-3500k XM-L would look just as good as a Bridgelux. The problem though is *getting* that XM-L. Order neutral XM-Ls from the typical reef sources and they are all over the place in terms of color temp, tint and CRI, and the odds are 'hell no' of getting a high CRI. Cutter can get you more specific bins if you need be though.

I've never seen high-CRI bins sold anywhere, and I'd imagine that they would get significantly more expensive if a specific color bin is requested, and they're already expensive. The neutral XM-L I got a good bit ago for a test, while insanely bright, just didn't have the coloration I wanted from them, not compared to the 5000K Rebels I've got. I was surprised by that. Made one badass fuge light, though, 4500 lumens really grows some chaeto

 

Also, XM-L's pretty much require optics because their off axis color is utterly horrendous.

Good to know!

 

Now, the MTG2 should fix a lot of this, and they allow for more flexible voltage matching while Bridgelux gives you pretty much one option. Double the price per lumen though, and contrary to the Cree fan boys over at RC trying to brain wash people the MTG2 is not more efficient than Bridgelux Arrays. Not sure if tech is stalling or something, but I think math skills are.

Looks like the top-bin 4000K 36v MT-G2 throws 750lm at 185ma, and 1,725lm at 500ma (max current), 18.5w. That's a fuzz over 93lm/w. The standard Bridgelux 950-B throw 1875lm at 1000ma, 22.5v, so 22.5w. That's about 83lm/w. Take into cost of the diodes, and the Bridgelux comes ahead by FAR, as the Cree are over $20 each, then get your driver arrangements in place and the cost of the MT-G2 goes up even more because of their higher voltage.

 

The high forward voltage of the Bridgelux arrays can be a problem with some designs, but an ELN-48 will still drive two of them in parallel with no issues. I have eight BXRA-40E0950-Bs running in parallel off a fixed voltage Mean Well which works fine if you adjust it right and use common sense. 9 thousand lumens at 3500k off a single 4' aluminum c-channel for less than $150 bucks in parts. Why are we still using FL tubes for interior lighting again? But no, you aren't going to drive too many 1500lumen Bridgelux arrays in series

Unless you had some crazy drivers, of course. Inventronics 200w drivers do 95-190v at 1050ma, or 143-285v at 700ma!! They're expensive, though, at least $130. It's still a lot cheaper to use LDD-H and a 48v power supply, $35 for a 7.3A power supply and less than $7 each for the drivers for wired drivers, so that is 10x LDD-700HW and 20x 950-B in series, or use 1000HW and run four per driver (two each, parallel) at 500ma.

 

Wakefield has some really nice radial heatsinks for Bridgelux arrays up to 35watts or so...passive.

That sounds awesome.

 

Let's not forget the Rebel M either.

Did you see the numbers on the ones Steve got? The 5000K are unbinned as far as output, but the RB M is C5G, 4400-4600mW, 11.0-11.5v, and 450-455nm binned at 700ma.

 

Yeah, the Aquastyle Bridgelux chips don't make a lot of sense. Basically the Aquastyle kits sell the LEDs for cheap which is fine, but look at the prices Steve is selling Rebel ES's for. Color is light years better with the rebels.

I tried explaining that on the Aquastyle thread here, but I don't think very many people believed me.

[blasterman]

The standard Bridgelux 950-B throw 1875lm at 1000ma, 22.5v, so 22.5w. That's about 83lm/w.

 

Keeping it real ( ), at 'stock' current ratings, which are 500mA for the 950 the Bridgelux is between 105-110 lumens per watt at > 1,000 lumens at reasonable case temps.

 

Obviously we can push a lot of these emitters and we do, but when we start doubling current ratings we get outside normal efficiency debates and into more into design contraints. Who in the world drives an XM-L at 750mA - ha! IMHO, if I was targeting 1800 lumens I'd likely opt for the 1200 Bridgelux, and it's only a couple bucks more than the 950. Still absurdly cheaper than the MTG2.

 

My point being the Bridgelux actually have superior efficacy than larger Crees if the playing field is equal. Then again I think the MTG2 is targeting a lot of Phlatlights specialty market, and the Luminous chips have *horrendous* ratings at high current.

[MeepNand]

Yeah Jedi, the high voltage power supplies I would need to run the bridgelux chips total more voltage than all of the leds in my builds put together. And they tend to be more expensive than the laptop power supplies. Sure, it's $20 more, but $20 for me is a lot of money.

[jedimasterben]

.... what? A $35 power supply that does 48v can run four times as many LEDs as a laptop power supply that outputs 12v, especially when you consider that most are still lower-amperage, 5-8A, so you'd need more of them and more drivers to run the same amount of LEDs.

[jedimasterben]

 

 

[MOJOEJOEJOE]

Jedi,

Is this Arduino based? I like looking at other code to get ideas how to clean mine up a bit.

[jedimasterben]

I'll have them on my Typhon until I can get my Reef Angel's PWM expansion in and set up.

[blasterman]

Asid61 might be referring to how many actual LEDs can be squeezed out of a lower wattage Mean Well or LDD. Or maybe direct driving off the brick.

 

Obviously if you're running a 18.5 volt laptop brick with DC/DC converter, then the higher forward voltages of bigger Bridgelux gets in the way. Or, direct driving LED straight off a laptop brick which is perfectly feasible if the voltages line up. Assuming an 18.5 volt HP brick you can run 6 Rebel ES's off it in series. You don't know exactly what the current is (between 700-1000), but I've done this more than a few times. Or, four XPGs or Rebels off a spare 12volt switch mode supply. got some laying around? Make a task light out of it, or fuge light. Darn thing is still more efficient than most commercial lamps, has better color, and will last forever.

 

Otherwise, you'd get a 36 or 48volt Mean Well DC supply and just run a LDD off each Bridgelux or pairs. Since DC supplies are cheaper than current regulated the Bridgelux design is still cheaper, but needs to scale big to be REALLY cheaper. For my 8 x 950 light I just use a fixed Mean Well DC supply and dial in the voltage until my current meter reads 4 amps. You lose a bit of efficiency this way, but is absurdly cheap, and no parallel concerns like current regulated.

[MeepNand]

I mean that I can use smaller power supplies instead of 48v ones for my projects given the number of leds I use; thus I end up getting a better price. I also have a lot of power supplies lying around that are 12v and a couple of 24v ones, but 48v or 36v is too much because I have to buy them.

[blasterman]

Yep - love those 12volt switch mode walwarts. I know that we always discuss LEDs in terms of current regulation, but it's not a rule if the forward voltages line up. Just run em' direct.

[MeepNand]

I don't like running directly. the leds tend to run at different voltages based on current, ranging from 2.75v to 3.2v in the case of Rebel ES.

[MOJOEJOEJOE]

Im using an old power supply from a desktop computer. It runs great and has 12vdc and 24vdc @ 10 amps each with a built in fan . My walwart got hot because it`s rated @max 5 amps and thats about what I push through it.

[jedimasterben]

Yo dawg, I heard you like heatsinks.

[blasterman]

ranging from 2.75v to 3.2v in the case of Rebel ES.

 

If that were the case one LED would be getting 350mA while the other would be getting 1500mA. you either have a power supply running in fault mode or a bad LED. I've probably built +50 fixed voltage light bars using Rebels, XP-Gs, Bridgelux etc., and provided it's a switched supply all of them measure within 1% current tolerance. Even Chinese LED's are manufactured so close it doesn't matter. My oldest ones have been running over 3 years now 24/7 on fixed voltage, and those are Chinese 3watt blues.

 

Total current draw increases a bit depending on how hot you're running because there's no current regulation with fixed voltage, but if you stay under 50C the increased brightness is not visible and the increased current is barely measureable.

[MOJOEJOEJOE]

sweet heatsink lol.......

[MeepNand]

If that were the case one LED would be getting 350mA while the other would be getting 1500mA. you either have a power supply running in fault mode or a bad LED. I've probably built +50 fixed voltage light bars using Rebels, XP-Gs, Bridgelux etc., and provided it's a switched supply all of them measure within 1% current tolerance. Even Chinese LED's are manufactured so close it doesn't matter. My oldest ones have been running over 3 years now 24/7 on fixed voltage, and those are Chinese 3watt blues.

 

Total current draw increases a bit depending on how hot you're running because there's no current regulation with fixed voltage, but if you stay under 50C the increased brightness is not visible and the increased current is barely measureable.

I mean that as the current tuns higher, like of you dim it for dawn and dusk, the voltage goes up too. I don't know how much that will affect the leds but I'm not going to take a risk now that all my future build will have Arduino-based dawn and dusk.

[jedimasterben]

This is what $40 in optics looks like.

 

 

[McJosh13]

Jedi,

 

I'm also interested in testing our the "evil cluster" for my next fixture but I don't understand how the published spectrum of the newer bridgelux BXRA-40E950-B-00 4000K leds will end up giving a look similar to a 14k Ushio or similar MH bulb.

 

Here is the spectrum of the Ushio 14k 175watt MH bulb:

 

 

You can see that the green peak is much larger than the red, as is in the other popular 14k bulbs .

 

Here is the spectrum of the bridgelux BXRA-40E950-B-00 4000K:

 

 

Notice the strong red peak that is way larger then that of the green. I would think that this would cast a purplish tint over the tank when combined with the royal blue and provide a diffrent asthetic than what your looking for. The original bridgelux N0402 led that Evil used in his "Evil Cluster" had an equal amount of green and red and should, in theory, produce a much more balanced light more similar to the Ushio 14k that you are trying to emulate when combined with royal blue/TV/True blue/cyan.

 

Bridgelux N0402:

 

I know that the newer BXRA-40E950's are alot more efficent than the older N0402's but if the asthetics are better than that means alot, at least to me. I am ordering both LEDs from newark to throw on a test rig and see how they look. What made you decide that this 40E950 LEDs had the proper spectrum to help you achieve your goal of emulating a Ushio 14k bulb?

 

Also has Steve listed the RB Luxeon M's on his site yet? I'm having a hard time locating them

[jedimasterben]

Jedi,

 

I'm also interested in testing our the "evil cluster" for my next fixture but I don't understand how the published spectrum of the newer bridgelux BXRA-40E950-B-00 4000K leds will end up giving a look similar to a 14k Ushio or similar MH bulb.

 

I know that the newer BXRA-40E950's are alot more efficent than the older N0402's but if the asthetics are better than that means alot, at least to me. I am ordering both LEDs from newark to throw on a test rig and see how they look. What made you decide that this 40E950 LEDs had the proper spectrum to help you achieve your goal of emulating a Ushio 14k bulb?

The reason I mentioned the Ushio 14K was for the intense spike at 420nm. In looks, my light will probably end up 16-18K. The eyes can be deceiving, I could match how it looks with very different LEDs, but corals can't be fooled.

 

Yeah, the 402 is about 60% as efficient as the 950 at higher currents.

 

Also has Steve listed the RB Luxeon M's on his site yet? I'm having a hard time locating them

Not yet. They should have had them this week and will be mounting them and doing their final testing just after that.

[Psychosis]

Forgive me if this is premature, but I'd really like a look at that 5 page LED write up jedi. I can't seem to find a source of information that makes each individual aspect of an LED build come together for me. I'd really prefer to do it myself, but at this point I can't help but think it well end in either failure or electrocution.

[MeepNand]

This is what $40 in optics looks like.

 

 

That's pretty snazzy.

[Acielot]

but at this point I can't help but think it well end in either failure or electrocution.

Don't forget house fire. You could always get electrocuted then cause a house fire and in the end be a failure, I mean if you want to hit all the objectives. So, yeah. Benny that writeup would be pretty snazzy. K thanks.