Refugiums don't export nutrients?

[Psychosis]

Yeah, forum crashing party! Unleash the dogs of war! I'm gonna need 4 lounge rats, 5 general board tough guys, and a bunch of Tang Police. Sprinkle on a kat to keep it melodramatic instead of overtly dramatic.

 

I've never strayed from N-R. Notta once. I've browsed, but you really can't get the same experience anywhere else. Like a biker gang in a chemistry class.

 

Any way, I can agree to disagree. Keep in mind it's original intended function, and a refugiums value as a biological filtration medium (how ever effective it may be) becomes something of an added perk rather than the focus.

[Hans Dorn]

FWIW; I grow my algae in the display

[Grape Nuts]

Okay here is the thread that go me started....

 

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f77/refugium-199177.html

 

Will post other threads with better info when I run across them.

You can sign up over there and dispell the lies quicker than you can call me a troll.

[Amphiprion1]

FWIW; I grow my algae in the display

My mind is blown

 

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn't resist, lol. I also like some sort of plants in my display. I just happened to have chosen seagrasses instead of algae.

[xerophyte_nyc]

DPRoberts, I will offer some views/ explanations:

 

It hasn't grown out of the aquarium and onto the floor, but it hasn't died off either.

 

Plants, and presumably algae, can remain in a steady state for exceedingly long periods. They just shut down metabolic activity. That's how so many species can survive long winters, dry deserts and other harsh conditions. It's like hibernation, or dormancy. They can also recycle nutrients via catabolism of older growth.

 

It's no pod factory (I see a few amphipods here and there, and lots of bristleworms - all of which must have been attached to the algae when I put it in there).

 

Many copepods and isopods feast on microalgae and phytoplankton, not macro. I don't believe amphipods use macroalgae as a primary source of food, they use it for shelter. If there is an inadequate food source, fauna will not flourish.

 

If macroalgae was supposed to die off or 'splode when it suddenly ran out of nutrients, I think it would have happened by now.

 

Life is very resilient. This is proven over and over again, all over the world.

Cheato isn't making detris, it's making more cheato.

 

mmm, Cheetos...

[Grape Nuts]

I came over here with my questions because I respect a lot of folks on this forum. I have been a member here longer than most of the haters. Good night all. Will check both threads in the morning.

[William]

A) Mass goes in tank = Food, amino acid supplements, phyto.... etc anyting made of carbon, N, P, O... assembled into biological molecules

 

B ) Mass comes out of tank = skimmate (especially with carbon dosing), detritus in a filter sock, suspended in water change, algae removed from a fuge or algae scrubber, coral exported (frags), imbeded into inorganic material (carbon, purigen, feric oxide....)

 

C) Mass is incorporated into biological tissue living in tank = bacteria, pod, algae, coral, fish, inverts in the tank.

 

Those are your options for everything that has ever gone into your tank (unless you are running a dialysis machine).

 

P or P04 is one of the most common molecules in biological tissue as mentioned before. Used for everything from proteins, to DNA, RNA, Coral skeletons..... Most cells (especially algae) love the stuff and need it to live.

 

As long as A-B= C(for the things you want) then you should be in good shape. When C increases to levels higher than is required for coral (SPS) to live optimally then you get algae blooms of various types.

 

That is all

[xerophyte_nyc]

I place macro in a fuge. I illuminate the fuge. The macro in the fuge grows fairly rapidly. What did the macro use to grow?

Photons + chlorophyll + CO₂ = carbs! And some N, P, K of course.

[Griever]

So, there's some great discussion here, but I want to clear up a common misconception. Most of a plant's (including algae) biomass comes from the uptake of carbon in the form of CO2.

 

http://www.extension.org/pages/26600/algae-for-biofuel-production

[metrokat]

So, there's some great discussion here, but I want to clear up a common misconception. Most of a plant's (including algae) biomass comes from the uptake of carbon in the form of CO2.

 

http://www.extension.org/pages/26600/algae-for-biofuel-production

so if my macros are thriving, I've got a healthy amount of CO2 ?

[Amphiprion1]

So, there's some great discussion here, but I want to clear up a common misconception. Most of a plant's (including algae) biomass comes from the uptake of carbon in the form of CO2.

 

http://www.extension.org/pages/26600/algae-for-biofuel-production

 

As is true for the dry mass of every living thing on earth on earth, minus the CO2 part. I can't think of any exceptions, really, save for some arsenic-based bacteria or something of the like.

 

so if my macros are thriving, I've got a healthy amount of CO2 ?

 

Kinda sorta maybe. They can use alternative carbon sources as well, like carbonate/bicarbonate. Even if CO2 levels were incredibly low, they wouldn't be necessarily completely carbon limited.

[xerophyte_nyc]

So, there's some great discussion here, but I want to clear up a common misconception. Most of a plant's (including algae) biomass comes from the uptake of carbon in the form of CO2.

 

http://www.extension.org/pages/26600/algae-for-biofuel-production

 

Very high phosphates in a reef tank weigh in at about 1 puny gram per gallon. There's not much mass there at all. Exporting a fistful of algae could still contain relatively significant bound phosphates, for our purposes.

[William]

Have there been any studies that have looked at CO2 levels in marine aquariums? or peoples houses for that matter?

 

It would also be interesting to find out the PO4 content in a gram of dry chetto

[Griever]

so if my macros are thriving, I've got a healthy amount of CO2 ?

 

Your fish and corals take in O2 dissolved in the water and through respiration and convert it into water and CO2. There's of course tons of other reactions going on in the body, but this is the main energy producing one.

 

C6H12O6 + 6 O2 --> 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + 38 ATP

 

This combined with what is absorbed through the agitation at the surface means your tank has plenty of dissolved CO2 to use.

 

I have a heavily planted freshwater tank, and I actually have to dose pressurized CO2 to keep the plant growth up with the levels of fertilizers I put into the tank.

 

 

Very high phosphates in a reef tank weigh in at about 1 puny gram per gallon. There's not much mass there at all. Exporting a fistful of algae could still contain relatively significant bound phosphates, for our purposes.

 

 

 

I disagree, the molar mass of the bound Carbon would greatly outweigh the phosphates. Not to say that the phosphate content is non-significant, just keep in mind the majority of that mass is directly from CO2.

 

Edit - I misread what you said, so I think we agree..

[markalot]

I see a lot of half information and posts take out of context.

 

The questions mostly pertain to phosphates, but anyone with a valid argument should be able to answer the following:

 

Do you understand phosphate is a critical building block of life?

 

Do you know where the phosphates go when you import them into your tank?

 

Do you think a refugium removes a significant amount of phosphates and why?

 

Do you agree that exports must equal imports minus usage?

 

Do you believe that all your techniques for managing nutrients is removing 100% of the phosphates added to your tank that was not used for growth? Why?

 

Can your sand absorb phosphate?

 

Can your rock absorb phosphate?

 

If you come to the conclusion that not all the phosphates added to a tank are being removed or are being used for growth, where are they going and what might happen if this reservoir ever fills up?

 

Personally I don't think there is a full proof way to remove all the extra phosphates from a tank, even with the crazy settling tank thing you should see if you spend any time reading over there. It's all about what methods work for the lifetime of your tank ... and don't pretend to know something you don't. If you have a 2 year old tank that works perfect then you have a two year old tank that works perfect. That's the only conclusion. If your tank crashes or suddenly suffers from hair algae or some other malady tomorrow then it worked perfect up until then, but probably was never perfect.

 

If you leave this post thinking I know anything then you misread, please go back to the top.

 

Usually at this point someone points to PauB's tank without understanding what he does to maintain it or even what substrate he uses.

 

Finally, just to be annoying, the following answers are wrong and will always be wrong.

 

- My refugium removes all my phosphates.

 

- I don't have any phosphates.

 

Rene Descartes went into his favorite bar and the bar tender asked, "would you like your usual drink, Monsieur Descartes?"

Descartes replied "I think not" and promptly disappeared.

[dtitus1]

I actually had a sump and overflow I got from my friend when I set up my tank, but I ended up selling it cause I didn't have the room and I wanna keep things small because I have to move alot. Still have the AC fuge with floss, purigen, chaeto and a piece of dead brain coral in the top to breed pods. My main nutrient export is the chaeto in the display and water changes, which in a small system isn't even that big a deal. Small and with refugium ftw.

[JPF]

I dose photons but dont measure. Should I be measuring the photons?

[Griever]

So after thinking about this topic, I think the OP was asking a decent question, but in the wrong way. The question should not be do refugiums export nutrients, but do they provide a net export of the right nutrients. The first question has a very obvious answer of yes. When you remove bio mass, you're removing all the nutrients that were used to grow that mass. Mainly CO2, Nitrates, Nitrites, Phosphates, and some trace elements.

 

The second question is a much better one, and I imagine would vary greatly in answers based on the configuration of your refugium as well as how well you maintain it. I think it's a fair point to bring up that a lot of people don't maintain their refugium as well as they should, and thus could potentially be generating more net nitrates and nitrites than the macros are absorbing. I don't think it's possible for a refugium to contribute to phosphates unless you're having mass die offs of macro, or if you're over feeding and the food is not being removed because the refugium isn't being maintained. I'd be open to reading any additional research though.

 

This is a great link about the chemistry of phosphates in your aquarium;

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

[kgoldy]

My system.

 

/thread

[markalot]

My system.

 

/thread

 

Your signature picture link doesn't work.

 

I think you fall under the My Tank Is Perfect scenario. It's working right now, but can it work for the long term.

[Amphiprion1]

Your signature picture link doesn't work.

 

I think you fall under the My Tank Is Perfect scenario. It's working right now, but can it work for the long term.

 

No tank is perfect and every setup has a finite life span unless something is done to intervene. However, what do you consider long term? I've had setups last well over a decade with no major changes to the system and others only seem to work for a few years. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what point you are attempting to get across, short of what is already obvious to everyone who has had a tank for any length of time. What "reservoir" were you referring to earlier that "fills up?" Sand, rock, organisms? There are mechanisms that account or those, too--even the former two. Not perfectly, but they are there.

[Griever]

Nutrient UPTAKE and growth of Ulva: http://www.umt.edu.my/dokumen/UMTAS2011/LIFE%20SC/Poster_LIFE_SC/LSP71%20-%20Siti%20Hajar%20Ahmad.pdf

 

Down the drain, exports from reef aquaria: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/index.php

 

Real scientists really proving that the title of this thread is really wrong.

Fantastic references, and interesting reads. Thank you for posting them.

[Veng]

I dose photons but dont measure. Should I be measuring the photons?

depends on if you are using photon torpedoes to do the dosing, or if you're using a fixture.

[markalot]

No tank is perfect and every setup has a finite life span unless something is done to intervene. However, what do you consider long term? I've had setups last well over a decade with no major changes to the system and others only seem to work for a few years. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what point you are attempting to get across, short of what is already obvious to everyone who has had a tank for any length of time. What "reservoir" were you referring to earlier that "fills up?" Sand, rock, organisms? There are mechanisms that account or those, too--even the former two. Not perfectly, but they are there.

 

Point? Only that someone, maybe sarcastically, telling us their system works is not really communicating anything. Because we don't know we don't know and those with perfect tanks can't tell us because they don't know. All they know is their tank works, but not why. Someone could duplicate that setup to what they think is perfection but still fail because some seemingly unimportant step was left out. Or, they could succeed because all the important steps were duplicated.

 

I'm not sure this thread is of any use to those who already know what's obvious. Obviously.

 

 

However, what do you consider long term? I've had setups last well over a decade with no major changes to the system and others only seem to work for a few years.

 

Ahh, there's another problem. What does 'work' mean? Healthy inhabitants with low phosphates and no algae issues? Healthy and thriving and who cares about a little algea? Is failure only defined by a crash that kills inhabitants? Works is different for different people as well.

 

My goal is staying alive and fairly healthy, not browning my SPS due to high phosphates, and no hard and fast crashes. I have too little experience with reefs to know how long I really want or expect my tanks to thrive ... IF they're even thriving now.

[dustbust]

I have a planted non Co2 freshwater aquarium. I actually dose what we call "evil" in our reefs No3 and Phosphates because the plants use up all the fish waste and extra food and ask for more. Some of these guys with heavy planted co2 tanks with high light can dump the ferts (N,P,K) in fast enough. The plants use it too quickly.

 

I understand this is a different scenario but it does prove plants (macro algae included) take nutrients from the water column.