Full spectrum LED layouts

[uglybuckling]

Been reading up a lot about LEDs, and I think I am getting close to having a full grasp of things. Plenty of awesome resources on here to explain how to put it together in such. My only remaining questions are shopping list related.

 

I have a 15L - not quite standard. 23 1/2" x 11 1/2" x 13 1/2".

 

 

Glad to see folks doing their homework. It always makes me so sad when I have to tell people that they bought the wrong thing.

 

I think (due to the shallow nature of your tank) that two of figure 3 will work great for you. That's a nifty tank size--I've heard of them called "short twenties" or "fifteen high" although that's rather a misnomer since it's very shallow. Anyway, I wish I could still find tanks in cool sizes like that but nooooo Petco just wants to rain all over my parade.

 

On to your questions:

From original post, I am looking at 2 clusters of figure 3. LED needs would be 2x OCW, 4x 3UP and 4 TV. Adding up forward voltages listed on ledgroupbuy.com, I would need ~43v. The part I am unsure of is the total wattage. Info about the OCW isnt clear on the website - or I'm blind. Rest adds up to 48w. Assuming a total of 60w.

 

So I count three LEDs each on OCW stars = six there, plus three each on 3up stars = twelve there, plus four true violets = twenty two LEDs at 3V each = 66V. However, generally when trying to figure out drivers, I don't add up the voltage or amperage or wattage of all my LEDs. The reason is, for control purposes and in order to not overdrive your LEDs, you need to put them on separate drivers.

 

Each driver will supply (some number of volts) to (some number of LEDs) and you don't ever have to think about voltage beyond the very simple "if I have X number of LEDs I should use Y driver." For Meanwells the 60-48Ds run 8-15 LEDs and the 60-27Ds run five to eight LEDs. For Inventronics, the 25W 700mA runs three to ten LEDs and the 40W 700mA runs six to fifteen.

 

So that takes care of voltage. "How many LEDs do I have on my chain" = "how much voltage do I need?" = "which driver should I buy?" You never have to set it or think about it after you've purchased your driver.

 

Next is amperage.

 

Each driver will supply its little string of LEDs with some specific amperage. In general, Luxeon Rebels (whether on 3ups or not) can be run at either 700 or 1000 milliamps (mA). Running at 700mA will make them dimmer than running at 1000mA. Cree LEDs run happily at 700mA or 1000mA too, but if they're on 3up stars you pretty much HAVE to run them at 700mA because otherwise they overheat. True violets run usually around 500mA. Some OCWs run at 700mA and some run at 500mA, depends on the brand.

 

You can't mix and match. If you stick a true violet on a driver running a string of royal blues at 1000mA, that true violet will literally catch fire. Or at least fail very quickly.

 

Hence you need more than one driver. Having one driver per color helps you with being able to change the appearance of your tank as well--each driver gets its little potentiometer ("knob") and bingo you can dial in whatever you want your tank to look like by playing with levels.

 

(quick aside: wattage = voltage * amperage. It's just a measure of how much power your LEDs use. It's important when you're trying to convince Jedi that your LED rig is more efficient than his, or that your power bill is lower, but that's about all it's good for. You don't have to pay attention to wattage to build an LED rig at all).

 

Would this cover my driver needs?

 

That is a fine driver. It goes up to 700mA, which is great for driving Cree 3ups. If you get your Cree 3ups wired in series, you can literally stick all your whites and blues on one of those drivers. The effect this will have is that they will all dim together, though--so you won't have as much control over your tank's color. Many people prefer to wire their whites and blues on separate drivers.

 

To do this, you would ideally use four of the Inventronics 25W drivers--one wired to your whites (of which there will be four), one wired to your blues (of which there will be eight), one to the OCWs (six LEDs in total) and one to your true violets (of which there will be four). Then you can dim every channel separately.

 

If you wanted to save a little bit of money, and you were willing to sacrifice a *little* bit of control, you could wire your OCWs and TV on the same Inventronics 25W driver (ten LEDs in total). In general you want to run all of these at 500mA anyway--so you need to dim your 700mA driver down to 500mA output (using the potentiometer) but beyond that you will almost never be dimming or screwing around with these LEDs, since they don't really alter color temperature much.

 

 

So....TL:DR, here are some driver plans for you using figure 3:

 

(1) the cheapest plan, with the least control: a single 40W inventronics driver for all your blues and whites (twelve LEDs total), running at 700mA, and a single 25W inventronics driver for all your OCWs and TVs (ten LEDs total), running at 500mA. With this plan, you can't change the ratio of blue to white, which means that if your tank looks too blue or too white to you, you're stuck.

 

(2) how I would do it: three 25W inventronics drivers: one for whites (4 LEDs), one for blues (8 LEDs), one for OCWS+TVs (10 LEDs). With this plan you can change blue:white, but can't really screw around much with OCW or TV.

 

(3) the most expensive plan, with the most control: four 25W inventronics drivers: one for whites (4 LEDs), one for blues (8 LEDs), one for OCWs (six LEDs), and one for TVs (4 LEDs). Everything can be adjusted independently.

 

Next question mark is the heatsink. Is one 12" heatsink enough to make 2 clusters, and big enough to cover my tank?

 

I'm gonna send you a PM on this one.

 

 

And finally, dimming. This is the area I'm still pretty vague on. How many dimmers do I want with this light setup?

 

A "dimmer" (potentiometer) is wired onto each driver and sets the amperage (milliamps) that driver outputs. You will want as many dimmers as you have drivers.

 

 

Oh right, one last question. I am going for 60 optics for everything, but apparently 40 is all that's available for the 3UP. Will that all work properly together?

 

Ohhh, I suck at optics. Jedi would be the one to ask about this. I've been told "NEVER mix and match" but of course on my newest build I'm mixing and matching 100 degrees with 90 degrees, so we'll see how that goes....*smile* Anyway. How high off the tank are you going to put the LED rig? I run mine six inches above the tank with no optics at all and it does just fine.

[jedimasterben]

Ohhh, I suck at optics. Jedi would be the one to ask about this. I've been told "NEVER mix and match" but of course on my newest build I'm mixing and matching 100 degrees with 90 degrees, so we'll see how that goes....*smile* Anyway. How high off the tank are you going to put the LED rig? I run mine six inches above the tank with no optics at all and it does just fine.

I run mine even higher with no optics and all is well.

 

Optics will really depend on how high the fixture is being hung. Over a shallow tank like that, no optics would be fine up to around 18" above the tank, so you're good to go without them. 40 degree optics are incredibly narrow, as they focus most of their light in the first half of the optic angle, so imagine 20 degree optics.

[Syn]

Thanks for the input, uglybuckling and jedimasterben. You 2 do a damn good job at making this complicated field understandable by anyone out there.

 

I believe I will hang the fixture 3 to 6 inches above the tank. How much of the wall height I can cover is the one and only girlfriend imposed restriction in my nano reefing adventure. I'll be making a wood canopy of some kind...lots of idea flying around in my head, waiting to see exactly what my fixture will look like before making final decisions there.

[m28cruiser]

Great info. Thanks guys!

[uglybuckling]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. Really you should just thank Jedi--he taught me all that I know. I just type really fast, and apparently rather like listening to myself "talk."

 

One of these days, once I get through fellowship applications, I'm going to sit down and draw up example diagrams for how to wire up complete rigs for a few of these designs. Drivers, knobs, AC power cords, hell I might even draw in a controller on some of them. I feel like that'd be a good teaching aid. Any other ideas about how to explain this stuff better?

 

I think that's a really funny restriction to impose. What does she do where wall space is at a premium? Is she an artist? I get all kinds of random stuff, like "you can't run a chiller in a room with a chinchilla" and the like. My girlfriend is a vet. =)

[BlndFshNoIz]

1. Thank you and everyone else for taking the time to put this together it really has helped.

 

2. I was going to ask if you could provide a list of everything needed to go with the layouts but I see that is something you plan on doing soon. You don't think you could do that by say Black Monday? Wink wink nudge nudge.

 

3. I have been using a par 38 7 led bulb on my 5.5 for over a year now and like many feel that the color may be lacking. Wouldn't it just be better for me to buy a full spectrum led light and use a wide lens vs. a DIY?

 

Again thanks for the information.

[uglybuckling]

2. I was going to ask if you could provide a list of everything needed to go with the layouts but I see that is something you plan on doing soon. You don't think you could do that by say Black Monday? Wink wink nudge nudge.

Haha, I was thinking about next week or the week after. It'll be done by Thanksgiving for sure.

 

I hope y'all like MSPaint though. I'd rather spend money on corals than Photoshop.

 

Still lookin' for more ideas for how to teach this stuff more effectively.

 

3. I have been using a par 38 7 led bulb on my 5.5 for over a year now and like many feel that the color may be lacking. Wouldn't it just be better for me to buy a full spectrum led light and use a wide lens vs. a DIY?

 

The full-spectrum PAR38 bulbs from LEDTRiC (a sponsor here) and Bright Aquatics (a Canadian company) are both really great. The latter also is dimmable, which is kinda sweet, although of course the dimmer isn't for specific color spectra--it's the whole darned light.

 

Another option would be a DIM4. I have no connection to Milad or LEDgroupbuy other than that I like this particular product of theirs--it is a little circuitboard that can act as driver AND controller for up to twelve LEDs. The controller part gives you sunrise/sunset abilities, and since it controls/drives the LEDs in four strings of three LEDs each, with separate controls for EACH of the four strings, you can easily run OCWs on one channel, 3ups on two channels, and true violets on the last channel to get a beautiful DIY lighting setup with a WHOLE lot of control over color temperature and timing. Plus automation of all of this stuff. The board is $85 which is less than you'd spend for drivers.

 

$85 for the board plus like $50 for LEDs (which is generous; you only need twelve of 'em!) lands you at about $135. You also need a heatsink and maybe a fan (though the Dim4 runs the LEDs at 500mA, which generates a lot less heat than running them at 1000mA; you *might* be able to get away with passive cooling). Yeah, it's a few bucks more than the full-spectrum PAR38 bulbs (around $110) and yeah, you have to solder, but on the other hand, the functionality here (very high level of control over color temperature, automation of dimming, sunrise/sunset, etc) is pretty advanced by comparison to what you get with a PAR38 (on/off, or on/off/dim of whole bulb if you buy the Canadian one).

 

I've debated this quite a bit myself. I don't know the answer. The full spectrum bulb will probably look cleaner, and is a bit cheaper. Plus no soldering is always a good thing. On the other hand, I think I'd probably get annoyed at the lack of control and automation with that type of lighting. Honestly you can get great coral growth with either--really that's not what is at stake here--it's just appearance, tweakability, silly extras like sunrise/sunset (which are so often billed as a "merit" of LED lighting but really have absolutely nothing to do with coral growth--corals do not care if the lights come up slowly or not), and automation.

[BlndFshNoIz]

Hey thanks for breaking that down and explaining the DIM4. I saw there was a video but I haven't had time to watch it. I did not realize it was a driver and a controller together so that is a nice feature and makes the choice even more difficult now

 

I think the way you do the first table worked well. If you have this size tank you buy these leds.

 

If you buy these leds you need to buy these parts .....

 

It is great reading 100 pages of info. but as you said, it stinks when you do the research but still end up with a product that is just ok at best.

 

Two more question and then I will go back to reading:

 

You said two 3 ups on one channel but in your table on page one for a 5.5 you have 4 rb, 2 nw, 2 or 3 tv, and 1 ocw.

 

The two 3s are under the royal blue xt-e with 2 rb and 1 nw right?

 

Also where would the third tv go in the drawing? In the middle next to the ocw or somewhere else?

 

Again thanks and sorry I am asking elementary questions.

[uglybuckling]

Hey thanks for breaking that down and explaining the DIM4. I saw there was a video but I haven't had time to watch it. I did not realize it was a driver and a controller together so that is a nice feature and makes the choice even more difficult now

Indeed. When/if I ever build my next-to-the-bed nano, I'm going to have to put a lot of thought into this. And probably a lot of regret, no matter which way I go.

 

I think the way you do the first table worked well. If you have this size tank you buy these leds.

 

If you buy these leds you need to buy these parts .....

 

Ah-hah! That sounds good. Figuring out drivers for all those builds will be a bear, and I'll probably have to do it as Meanwells AND Inventronics both...but hey, I'll give it a shot. Will probably start with popular sizes like the 40b and the ten gallon and move on from there.

 

It is great reading 100 pages of info. but as you said, it stinks when you do the research but still end up with a product that is just ok at best.

 

Hopefully we can make it a little more concise than that! And yeah, my least favorite thing is telling somebody they bought the wrong thing. It's always best to read and find the answer yourself, but once you're settled on an intelligent plan, it never hurts to toss it up here and ask people what they think of it.

 

...before shelling out your hard-earned cash for 10,000K LEDs. =)

 

Two more question and then I will go back to reading

 

You've got a PM.

[uglybuckling]

Okay, here is the first half of the driver plans (table format only so far, I'll get around to drawing some of the wiring diagrams.....sometime):

 

For figure 1 I still think the Dim4 used as drivers is your best bet. I also think this is true for figure 2 (see table below).

 

 

[bdevillier19]

i have another question for you layout guru's. i'm going to be setting up a 40 gallon acrylic tank that measures 28"x18"x18". what layout would you suggest? i was thinking the 40b layout but originally i came up with using 2 clusters, each cluster consisting of (3) 3up RB/NW, (1)OCW 3 up, and (2) TV. would that be a good balance for a tank that size? i plan on keeping a mixed reef but lighter on the sps side. maybe a nem down the road.

[uglybuckling]

i have another question for you layout guru's. i'm going to be setting up a 40 gallon acrylic tank that measures 28"x18"x18". what layout would you suggest? i was thinking the 40b layout but originally i came up with using 2 clusters, each cluster consisting of (3) 3up RB/NW, (1)OCW 3 up, and (2) TV. would that be a good balance for a tank that size? i plan on keeping a mixed reef but lighter on the sps side. maybe a nem down the road.

 

That's an interesting tank size. I'd imagine it will look really great. I think the 40b layout would work fine, but might be overkill for a mixed reef with only a few pieces of SPS, for a tank that is only one inch taller than a 40 breeder with several less inches of length. Your plan (which is very similar to Figure 4 above; intended to be used over a 17" deep 20H) will likely be fine. Sure, you may have to be careful with where you put specific corals (SPS will need to go under the lights, etc), but what aquarium is free from that limitation, really? =)

[jedimasterben]

That's an interesting tank size. I'd imagine it will look really great. I think the 40b layout would work fine, but might be overkill for a mixed reef with only a few pieces of SPS, for a tank that is only one inch taller than a 40 breeder with several less inches of length. Your plan (which is very similar to Figure 4 above; intended to be used over a 17" deep 20H) will likely be fine. Sure, you may have to be careful with where you put specific corals (SPS will need to go under the lights, etc), but what aquarium is free from that limitation, really? =)

+1

[bolofd]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here. I'll be building a DIY led for my RSM130d soon and want to get a list of everything I need. The tank size looking down from the top is 23x15 and 20" deep. The light will be mounted near the back of the tank because that's where the stock light opening in the hood is. My plan is to use 12rb, 6nw, 6tv, and 2ocw split into two clusters like fig.4.

 

I just have a few questions.

 

1. Since the light is mounted near the back of the tank I wanted to add a strip of LEDs on the front of the hood where it opens for feeding. What LEDs should I use? Rb with nw or should I make it full spectrum too?

 

2. I was planning on using four drivers for each string of colors but read in this thread that ocw and tv don't really get dimmed because they don't effect the overall light temperature. So should I stick with three drivers instead?

 

3. I will be using an apex vdm to control the lights so which drivers work best with the Neptune apex controller?

 

4. For the rb and nw LEDs is it better to go with separate LEDs or 3up? Disco effect and ease of wiring?

 

Also whatever ideals or suggestions for my build is more than welcomed. Tia

[MeepNand]

Quick question: Do you need the OCW or can you sub them out for something else?

[uglybuckling]

Quick question: Do you need the OCW or can you sub them out for something else?

 

OCW = deep red 660nm, cyan 495nm, and cool blue 470nm.

 

 

If you sub them out for something else, you won't have a full-spectrum build any more. =) The inclusion of these exotic LED colors is what defines full spectrum.

[uglybuckling]

Also here's a really cool diagram that shows the interaction of Planckian black-body radiators with the CIE colorspace.

 

 

For those who aren't in-the-know about Kelvin temperatures of light: "the correlated color temperature scale maps perceived light to the the spectral emissions of an idealized black-body radiator." Whaaaat?

 

Think of it like this: when you heat up metal, it glows red (1000 Kelvin). Heat it up more and it glows yellow (5000 Kelvin). More? White (10,000 Kelvin). Even more? Blue (16000 Kelvin).

 

Ta-da! Now you know where the Kelvin ratings for light color come from, and why we use a temperature unit to refer to color.

 

PS: image is copyright Cree. Not reproducing it here for profit, blah blah blah. Ditto the image in the prior post.

[uglybuckling]

1. Since the light is mounted near the back of the tank I wanted to add a strip of LEDs on the front of the hood where it opens for feeding. What LEDs should I use? Rb with nw or should I make it full spectrum too?

 

Might want Jedi to weigh in on this one too. I have no experience with doing anything like this, but I see a few issues:

1) separation between front LEDs and back LEDs may make disco

2) Wiring to something with a hinge usually sucks

3) You're going to stick a heatsink to the flap that opens for feeding?

4) If all your full-spectrum exotic LEDs are in the back of the tank, and angle of incidence = angle of reflection, you may not get much in the way of reflection of those cool colors toward the front of the tank (in other words, though you will maintain the benefits of full spectrum for growth, you might lose the aesthetic benefits to a degree), because you can't bounce the light from the back of the tank in a way that makes it leave through the front glass.

 

2. I was planning on using four drivers for each string of colors but read in this thread that ocw and tv don't really get dimmed because they don't effect the overall light temperature. So should I stick with three drivers instead?

 

Being able to dim TV when introducing corals is important. You can dim the OCWs along with them (if they're all on the same driver), but this will slightly change the appearance of your tank (usually for the worse). Obviously this is only temporary unless you are constantly acclimating new coral. If there's an adequate number of LEDs to support separate drivers for TVs and OCWs, I'd think pretty hard about doing it. It's only the price of one driver. =) That being said, I would not fault anybody for combining them. Out of all the LEDs in a full-spectrum build, they are the ones that best lend themselves to being put on one driver.

 

3. I will be using an apex vdm to control the lights so which drivers work best with the Neptune apex controller?

 

The Apex VDM adds 1-10v dimmers, which are compatible with Meanwell "D" drivers (ELN-60-48D) and with the Inventronics drivers that Milad sells.

 

4. For the rb and nw LEDs is it better to go with separate LEDs or 3up? Disco effect and ease of wiring?

 

I wussed out and went with 3ups that were wired in series on mine because I didn't want to solder them. You can buy 3ups that allow you to separately solder to each LED's contact points--they're just very small. In retrospect I kinda wish I had done that.

[bolofd]

First off I want to thank uglybuckling for your response. I completely agree with you on having the lights split up and I really hate how Red Sea designed the hood. I'm going to figure out a way to mount the fixture further forward. As for the drivers I'm going to use inventronics because they make one that will control min 6 LEDs. Also I will use 3ups to minimize disco and save space.

 

One other question, if I were able to fit a 5x20" heatsink in the middle of the hood somehow, which combination of LEDs would be best for my size tank. Which is 23x15 and 20" deep.

[bdevillier19]

That's an interesting tank size. I'd imagine it will look really great. I think the 40b layout would work fine, but might be overkill for a mixed reef with only a few pieces of SPS, for a tank that is only one inch taller than a 40 breeder with several less inches of length. Your plan (which is very similar to Figure 4 above; intended to be used over a 17" deep 20H) will likely be fine. Sure, you may have to be careful with where you put specific corals (SPS will need to go under the lights, etc), but what aquarium is free from that limitation, really? =)

 

it is an interesting sized tank for sure. i picked it up for $50 on craigslist, did a bit of sand and polish, and have a nice acrylic tank with rounded front corners. im planning on using leds and drivers from stevesleds.com but was wondering if the DIM 4 from milad would work with steves drivers?

[jedimasterben]

it is an interesting sized tank for sure. i picked it up for $50 on craigslist, did a bit of sand and polish, and have a nice acrylic tank with rounded front corners. im planning on using leds and drivers from stevesleds.com but was wondering if the DIM 4 from milad would work with steves drivers?

no, the drivers are pwm. i would use the boostled typhon instead.

[1.0reef]

Would figure 9 grow anything in 60 cube, could one get away with a few less if I wanted mostly LPS or softies with only a few simple sps towards the top?

[uglybuckling]

Figure 9 is pretty beastly. I was drawing out drivers for it the other day and it was making my head hurt.

 

I'm pretty sure you could get away with less if you wanted to do only LPS and softies. No idea how much less. I don't have a whole lot of experience in building giant arrays like that. My largest is...um...six 3ups, two OCWs, and four TVs.

[bdevillier19]

no, the drivers are pwm. i would use the boostled typhon instead.

thanks

[Veng]

Nice thread and great resource. I was going to add a note about passive heatsinks/fans. The reason most people want passive is because they want quite. If you want quite, the secret is getting the LARGEST fan you can running at the SLOWEST speed (RPM).

 

It boils down like this, you want to move heat off the heatsink, and do to that you need to move a volume of air. You can either move a small cross section very fast (small fan) or you can move a large cross section very slow (large fan). Fast air = noise. Fast moving parts (blade) = noise. So basically get the largest, slowest, fan that will fit on your heat sink.