324 replies to this topic

[uglybuckling]

These values are for Cree or Luxeon Rebel LEDs only. Sources include essentially every build thread I've read on N-R, which is many, along with a few reasonable guesses and extrapolations. Figures for each cluster layout are shown below the table.

Please consult the many other threads available in the lighting forum for details of how to solder, how to attach LEDs to heatsinks, etc.

NOTE: I have planned driver setups for a few of these rigs. They can be found here.

The goals with these layouts are twofold:

(1) to have enough light to grow all types of coral, although due to variations in tank layouts, there may be locations (particularly the corners of the tank and near the sand bed) in some of these tanks, set up as shown, that will not grow SPS, and...

(2) to give a baseline understanding of (roughly) how many LEDs are needed and how to cluster them, for those who are new to DIY LED rigs.





You can right-click it and open the table in another tab, it will be much easier to read.


FIGURE 1 (2.5 and 5 gallon):




FIGURE 2 (use over a 7.5 gallon cube):




FIGURE 3 (use two clusters over a 10 or 15 gallon; could use three of these for a 20 long):




FIGURE 4 (use two clusters over a 20H; two would also be suitable for a 20 long):




FIGURE 5 (use over a 25 gallon cube):




FIGURE 6 (use two clusters over a 29, 30, 38, or 40 breeder):





FIGURE 7 (use three clusters over a 33 long or a 40 long, would also work for a 55 if you grow low-light stuff):





FIGURE 8 (use two clusters over a 55):




FIGURE 9 (use over a 60 gallon cube) (I had fun drawing this...):




This is a work in progress. Suggestions and constructive criticism welcomed.

Edited by uglybuckling, 10 October 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[cactuspat]

This is a great post for all looking for a general led setup and color. Following to see what the guru's will make and add to this.

[Milad LEDGroupBuy.com]

good post! free bump

[uglybuckling]

This is a great post for all looking for a general led setup and color. Following to see what the guru's will make and add to this.

good post! free bump

Thanks all.

I finally finished adding all my pictures.

[topjimmy]

Thanks all.

I finally finished adding all my pictures.

What about the people using tubular heat sinks? I have two that I need to fit 21 rb, 14 nw, 4 3up, and 2 tv 3ups.
I think that keeping the rb, and nw in rows of 7 will make it easier to wire.

[uglybuckling]

What about the people using tubular heat sinks? I have two that I need to fit 21 rb, 14 nw, 4 3up, and 2 tv 3ups.
I think that keeping the rb, and nw in rows of 7 will make it easier to wire.

This does not keep everything in rows of 7

Hard to know without tank dimensions (how long are these tubular heatsinks? How much front-to-back coverage do you need?) but generally here are some ideas:




My favorite is the last plan, using only one tubular heatsink. I feel the first one really puts too much color in the middle of the tank, which may not work out very well if your tank is super long. The 2nd plan is good for a medium to long tank, and the third plan is good for a very long and skinny tank.

Each of those uses 20 RBs, not 21. I drew out a plan that used 21, but I didn't like it. You can stick the 21st one somewhere in the middle of one of these rigs and use it for a moonlight or something.

Incidentally, I don't know this for sure, but tubular heatsinks sounds like Steve'sLEDs, and Steve sells Luxeon Rebels. These are best used in a 3:2 RB:NW ratio (as you have) for RB and NW-only builds, but are best used in a 2:1 ratio in full-spectrum builds because the perceived white from the OCWs makes up the difference and helps drown out the crazy bright RBs.

Hence if you want to use 14 NWs you could go up to 28 RBs, or you could use 20 RBs and fewer NWs. I suggest you take the extra NWs and throw them on your 'fuge. =)

Edited by uglybuckling, 01 October 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[topjimmy]

Thanks UB.

The tank is a 65g 36*18*22. I am using steves leds. Each tube is 30 inches long, and I plan to offset them to cover the sides.

[emerick79]

For the 5.5, how far apart are the blue/white 3-ups spaced apart?
Thanks,
Sean

[uglybuckling]

For the 5.5, how far apart are the blue/white 3-ups spaced apart?
Thanks,
Sean

That's left up to you, based on what heatsink you get. The tank is sixteen inches long; I'd probably recommend a one foot heatsink at minimum to get adequate spread, and with a one foot heatsink you'd have to put 'em pretty near the ends.

A 16 inch heatsink would also work well, but a nicely-finished one is harder to come by at that length ("nicely finished" means fans and splashguards and whatnot....I'm assuming you don't have a really sweet aluminum cutter handy...)

I intentionally left these kinda vague so they could be adapted to different-sized heatsinks. The idea though with the clusters is to tightly pack LEDs together and then to have the clusters far enough apart that their shadows won't overlap by much. Otherwise, you get disco.

[emerick79]

I was planning on a 12" heatsink. I found an empty fixture shell that fits a 5 gallon perfectly to put the heatsink in. the leds will only be a few inches off the water. I will have a splash guard though. so if i had them on the end of the heatsinks, i wont get any shadowing? also, i want to run the blues and whites on one dimmable driver. and the violets and ocw a second dimmable driver. is this okay to run the violets and ocw with the same ma or am i going to get a weird color?
Thanks,
Sean

Edited by emerick79, 05 October 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[uglybuckling]

I was planning on a 12" heatsink. I found an empty fixture shell that fits a 5 gallon perfectly to put the heatsink in. the leds will only be a few inches off the water. I will have a splash guard though. so if i had them on the end of the heatsinks, i wont get any shadowing? also, i want to run the blues and whites on one dimmable driver. and the violets and ocw a second dimmable driver. is this okay to run the violets and ocw with the same ma or am i going to get a weird color?
Thanks,
Sean

The effect of meeting cones will be pretty darned minimal and is unlikely to bother you. LEDs with no optics give off a 120 degree cone of light. Let's say you mount them 11 inches apart. The angle formed by the edge of the cone with the horizontal is 60 degrees, so you get an equilateral triangle with side length 11. That's 2x. x is therefore 5.5, and the height is x*sqrt(3) which comes to 9.526 for x=5.5. As such, you will have 9.5 inches of height before the LEDs cones touch. 10 inch deep tank +2 inches above tank for mounting - 1 inch of sandbed = 11 inches. They touch at 9.5 inches. You'll have a very small area of overlap of the two cones.

The good news is that if it bothers you, you can buy some 90 degree optics and the problem will 100% go away.

Violets and OCWs can quite effectively be run on the same channel, at 500mA if using generics and 700mA if using Rebels on the OCW stars and really really high-end 700mA violets. The color you get with them on alone may be rather odd (Luxeon Rebel OCWs tend to be dominated by cyan because the cyan LEDs from that series are just incredibly overpowering; they mix oddly with violets--generic OCWs generally don't have this problem because their cyans aren't as beastly), but once mixed with RBs and NWs at correct ratios, it should look pretty good. You will, of course, lose the ability to separately control the intensities.

Also I have no affiliation with LEDgroupbuy.com, but I would feel like I was not keeping you properly informed if I didn't mention their DIM4 board. It can run twelve LEDs (in groups of three, on four channels) with no drivers (you just run them directly off the DIM4 board) and it gives you quite impressive control over dimming and intensity for each string. My plans for the 5.5 gallon tank were made with this in mind. You do get one more LED than I have drawn, but this can be used for another true violet, another blue, or another white LED. Keep in mind it will be on the same channel as the violets and therefore not super intense, if you use a white or a blue...but it could give a subtle nudge to the color temperature if you have a preference for whiter or bluer.

Edited by uglybuckling, 05 October 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[emerick79]

ok that sounds great. i think i will go without optics and add them later if it ends up bothering me.
Thanks!
Sean

[bdevillier19]

this is a great thread to all of those trying to figure out where to start. this thread should be a sticky in the DIY or lighting forum. great job, keep it going.

[MeepNand]

Nice. Definitely a sticky.
But on the 2.5 gallon, it seems you recommend about 8 or 9 leds. That seems like overkill on such a small tank.

Edited by asid61, 06 October 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[uglybuckling]

Nice. Definitely a sticky.
But on the 2.5 gallon, it seems you recommend about 8 or 9 leds. That seems like overkill on such a small tank.

I absolutely agree and I think you'd probably need to dim them a bit.

There are two problems with full spectrum builds for a 2.5 gallon tank:

The first is what LEDTRiC discovered (I'm pretty sure I read this somewhere a few months ago) when they tried to make a full-spectrum PAR30 bulb: you can't do full spectrum with five LEDs. I agree that the number of LEDs I have recommended is overkill for the tank size; that being said it's essentially the minimum number needed to create a true "full spectrum" build that doesn't look wonky in terms of color balance.

The second problem is that driving very small numbers of LEDs can be problematic because the options for commercially-available driver units are limited; at least from the traditional LED suppliers (LEDgroupbuy, RapidLED, Steve's). Meanwell actually *does* make the appropriate driver units but they're kinda expensive (upward of $20 to drive three LEDs seems steep to me) and not readily-available. I also have not seen them used very much in people's builds.

I also wanted to use twelve LEDs (there are eleven in the plan as shown; you get one extra to play around with) so that it would be reasonable to use a DIM4 to drive them. You save the cost of the drivers AND get a bunch of control over timing and sunrise/sunset.

Anyway, the easiest fix would be to take the 2.5 gallon tank off completely and just recommend that pattern for a 5.5 gallon tank.

Then, though, the first thing that'll happen is somebody will show up with "THIS IS NANO REEF NOT MIDSIZE REEF WHERE IS MY 2.5 GALLON PLAN?" So yeah. I just stuck it on there. Dim away! =)

Edited by uglybuckling, 06 October 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[thesilence87]

For a 40b cluster, how big of a passive heatsink do you think is necessary in order to properly cool the unit?

Edit: I wasn't sure if this was outside the scope of this thread, I apologize if it was.

Edited by thesilence87, 07 October 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[jedimasterben]

For a 40b cluster, how big of a passive heatsink do you think is necessary in order to properly cool the unit?

Edit: I wasn't sure if this was outside the scope of this thread, I apologize if it was.

I wouldn't recommend running one passively unless you can guarantee it will have airflow over it otherwise (which usually is not nearly enough).

[MeepNand]

Passive only works if the fins are spaces widely apart. On my led fixture, I use passive cooling, and the heatsinks with about half the total surface area work better than the tighter finned ones with more surface area. Fans are generally much better anyway.

[jedimasterben]

Also just want to throw this in, ratios for determining how many royal blue to match up to neutral whites to get 14,000K color.

For 4,500K whites, use a 1:9 lumens to mW ratio, ie, if your NW LED puts out 300 lumens, use enough royal blues to equal 2,700mW of radiance.

For 4,000K whites, use a 1:10 ratio, so 300 lumens to 3,000mW.


So, for 4,500K Cree XT-E/XP-G and 4,000K/5,000K Luxeon Rebel ES, it's closest to a 1:2 ratio of NW to RB. For Bridgelux, the royals lack so much power it's not even funny. From Milad, you need a 2:3 ratio, and from Aquastyle, a 1:2 ratio. Of course, you need many more LEDs overall using Bridgelux, the neutrals put out about 40% less light and the royals put out nearly 60% less light.

[bdevillier19]

So, for 4,500K Cree XT-E/XP-G and 4,000K/5,000K Luxeon Rebel ES, it's closest to a 1:2 ratio of NW to RB. For Bridgelux, the royals lack so much power it's not even funny. From Milad, you need a 2:3 ratio, and from Aquastyle, a 1:2 ratio. Of course, you need many more LEDs overall using Bridgelux, the neutrals put out about 40% less light and the royals put out nearly 60% less light.

thanks for this bit of info, i've always wondered exactly how much the difference between cree and bridgelux real is and after reading this, the savings on the cost by going bridgelux isnt worth it.

[jedimasterben]

thanks for this bit of info, i've always wondered exactly how much the difference between cree and bridgelux real is and after reading this, the savings on the cost by going bridgelux isnt worth it.

Cree XT-E and Luxeon Rebel ES at 700ma (2.2w each):
NW = ~250lm
RB = ~1150mW

at 1000ma (3.2w each)
NW = ~320lm
RB = ~1600lm

Luxeon Rebel ES at 700ma (1.9w each):
NW = ~250lm
RB = ~1200mW

at 1000ma (3.0w each):
NW = ~320lm
RB = ~1600lm



Bridgelux from Milad at 700ma (2.5w each):
NW = ~200lm (there is no datasheet to back this up, though, so i have my doubts)
RB = ~650mW

Bridgelux from Aquastyle at 700ma (2.5w each):
NW = ~150lm (the 10K chip outputs 180-200lm, so I'd imagine the 4500k is about 150lm)
RB = ~620mW

[uglybuckling]

Thanks for that!

It's easy to say, "don't use cheap LEDs, the good ones don't cost much more, and they're way better" but it's nice to actually have data to demonstrate what "way better" means.

It's interesting to note that *for the same amount of light output,* Crees and Luxeons are actually cheaper than Bridgelux LEDs. You need 40-60% more Bridgelux LEDs to get equivalent output, but they are (at least as far as I've seen) not 40-60% cheaper.

So even using only a straight "how much light can I get for my dollar?" argument (completely independent of any concerns about soldering more contacts, the quality of the light achieved using cheaper phosphors, the cost of additional drivers for the larger number of cheapie LEDs needed in order to get the same output, lower mean time before failure on the cheapie LEDs, etc etc) you STILL get more light per dollar using Crees or Luxeons than using the off-brands.

The world of LED-based reef lighting seems to be mired in a whole lot of marketing hype, much of which either makes no sense (some of the color ratios I see on commercial fixtures), has very little scientific basis (labeling arrays of fewer than five 1W LEDs as "high output"), or is simply irrelevant to coral growth (sunrise/sunset for instance, which I don't hate, but which has *nothing to do* with the merits of LED lighting). Given this degree of hype and bluffing and hand-waving, it's good to see that the companies with the best products (and not those with the best marketing!) have risen to the top. Now it's just a matter of educating people about how much difference skimping in this particular department makes.

Edited by uglybuckling, 08 October 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[thesilence87]

Passive only works if the fins are spaces widely apart. On my led fixture, I use passive cooling, and the heatsinks with about half the total surface area work better than the tighter finned ones with more surface area. Fans are generally much better anyway.

so, if i get a 6"x6" heatsink with wide fins, it wouldnt be impossible to run a 20h/20l cluster? im trying to minimize costs while adding a second lighting cluster to my existing one.

Edited by thesilence87, 08 October 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[jedimasterben]

And long-term, it makes even less sense.

Let's take a standard 29g Biocube, a very popular tank.

Cree/Luxeon:
6x NW
12x RB

Totals to about 54w (roughly 3w each at 1000ma), and let's say they cost $60 total.

Bridgelux:
12x NW
30x RB

Totals to about 106w (2.5w each for RB, 2.6w each for NW at 700ma), and they'll cost about $85.

As 10 hours per day of full-power, cost over time of energy use at the US average of 10 cents per kwh of elecricity:

.................................Cree/Luxeon..............Bridgelux
Per day:..........................$0.05.....................$0.11
Per month:......................$0.38.....................$0.74
Per 6 months:..................$1.62.....................$3.18
Per year:.........................$19.71...................$38.69
Per 5 years:.....................$98.55...................$193.45


Doesn't seem like it's a whole lot, but considering the initial cost is actually more in addition to a 50% increase in energy use, it just doesn't make sense!

so, if i get a 6"x6" heatsink with wide fins, it wouldnt be impossible to run a 20h/20l cluster? im trying to minimize costs while adding a second lighting cluster to my existing one.

I would shy away from running passive. Unless you've got good airflow going over it (regardless of how wide the fins are), it may overheat the LEDs. Heat is the real killer of LEDs, moreso than current (though the two are linked). If I had the choice of spending $30 more to add a fan and power supply (it will cost less than that, I'm just doing a 'what if') to keep my LEDs at 30C instead of 50C, I'd do it. They'll last longer and have more output.

[Syn]

Been reading up a lot about LEDs, and I think I am getting close to having a full grasp of things. Plenty of awesome resources on here to explain how to put it together in such. My only remaining questions are shopping list related.

I have a 15L - not quite standard. 23 1/2" x 11 1/2" x 13 1/2".

From original post, I am looking at 2 clusters of figure 3. LED needs would be 2x OCW, 4x 3UP and 4 TV. Adding up forward voltages listed on ledgroupbuy.com, I would need ~43v. The part I am unsure of is the total wattage. Info about the OCW isnt clear on the website - or I'm blind. Rest adds up to 48w. Assuming a total of 60w.

Would this cover my driver needs?
edit: now that I put down my needs and questions in writing, I was able to find more info on my own. That driver I linked could only handle one chain of leds, correct? And the TV/OCW would need a separate driver because of their 500mA needs? So now my question becomes:

Is there a driver I can get that will cover all my LED needs? whites and blues on separate channels, and one more for TV/OCW? Or do I need 3 drivers?

Next question mark is the heatsink. Is one 12" heatsink enough to make 2 clusters, and big enough to cover my tank?

And finally, dimming. This is the area I'm still pretty vague on. How many dimmers do I want with this light setup? Only for NW/RB? Or do the OCW and TV benefit from dimming as well?

Oh right, one last question. I am going for 60 optics for everything, but apparently 40 is all that's available for the 3UP. Will that all work properly together?

Edited by Syn, 08 October 2012 - 05:18 PM.