My Endless Cycle Week 6! Nitrite and Nitrate Extremely High! Help

[PureColorDesigns]

I have a 20 Gallon Long that has been cycling for 6 weeks!

20 lbs of live rock and 40lbs of live sand.

Hydor Koralia 240 and a 425 powerheads!

 

I have Hundreds of hydroids on the glass. Diatom on sand and rock! I have a few hitchhikers like starfish and bristle worms.

 

My ammonia went away at about 3-4 weeks which had reached 8ppm+ at one point. Now my Nitrites are 5ppm+ (neon purple as soon as the API drops hit the water) and my Nitrates are Deep Deep red like 80-160ppm. my water temp is always about 78-79. Refractometer reads 1.024 - .025.

 

Last weekend i added about 5 lbs more of live rock and did a 5 gallon water change to try to bring levels down a little and it had no affect on Nitrites but did bring down my Nitrates for about 3 days and now they are back up. Ammonia is still at .25 - 0.

 

Is it normal to go through a cycle and have 3 weeks where you see nothing changing and no progression? I really want to make this tank cycle soon or at least see some progress. Any Ideas or suggestions?

[KerryL.]

You are going to need to do like 50% WC's to see a big change in that amount of nitrate. I have had tanks take almost 2 months. You might have die off still happening, its hard to say, keep doing bigger WC's and see if this helps as you might be experiencing die off.

[Fluki]

You are going to need to do like 50% WC's to see a big change in that amount of nitrate. I have had tanks take almost 2 months. You might have die off still happening, its hard to say, keep doing bigger WC's and see if this helps as you might be experiencing die off.

 

+1^

[PureColorDesigns]

You are going to need to do like 50% WC's to see a big change in that amount of nitrate. I have had tanks take almost 2 months. You might have die off still happening, its hard to say, keep doing bigger WC's and see if this helps as you might be experiencing die off.

 

So even though i am still cycling it should be ok to do some water changes to at least get things down to a detectable range?

[Fluki]

So even though i am still cycling it should be ok to do some water changes to at least get things down to a detectable range?

 

Yes. Do you a skimmer or any other type of filtration?

[PureColorDesigns]

Yes. Do you a skimmer or any other type of filtration?

 

Marineland Penguin 100 HOB but i do not have a skimmer!

[banshee]

Now that your ammonia is 0 big water changes are okay. You'll need to do a lot of water changes to bring it down though. If your nitrate is 160ppm a 50% water change will only bring it down to 80ppm and so on. I'd do the largest water change you're equipped to handle and get the nitrate down to 20 or less. Then you can watch for nitrite to continue the conversion process and reach 0 for a week before adding any life.

[KerryL.]

So even though i am still cycling it should be ok to do some water changes to at least get things down to a detectable range?

Yes, Banshee's advice is the same as mine.

[Fluki]

Marineland Penguin 100 HOB but i do not have a skimmer!

 

I would invest in a skimmer if possible. Even with a skimmer the best way to make a dramatic change would be with large water changes.

[PureColorDesigns]

I would invest in a skimmer if possible. Even with a skimmer the best way to make a dramatic change would be with large water changes.

 

 

I am liking all of these answers but i do have a few questions. I have posted this issue a few times in the past weeks and was constantly told not to do any water changes except for user banshee which has been suggesting this to me for weeks but i haven't listened... Thanks you again Banshee

 

So i am a little surprised i am getting more advise to do a water change.

 

What will a skimmer do for me? I am a Noob... Sorry

[PureColorDesigns]

Now that your ammonia is 0 big water changes are okay. You'll need to do a lot of water changes to bring it down though. If your nitrate is 160ppm a 50% water change will only bring it down to 80ppm and so on. I'd do the largest water change you're equipped to handle and get the nitrate down to 20 or less. Then you can watch for nitrite to continue the conversion process and reach 0 for a week before adding any life.

 

 

Thank you! I should had listened to your advise weeks ago but so many people are against water changes i didn't know what was best!

[TeflonTomDosh]

Thank you! I should had listened to your advise weeks ago but so many people are against water changes i didn't know what was best!

I didn't do any water changes during my cycle, and haven't experienced any die-off since. Jus sayin....

[PureColorDesigns]

I didn't do any water changes during my cycle, and haven't experienced any die-off since. Jus sayin....

 

How long did your cycle take? Did your Nitrites get as high and stall for as long as mine? I know people don't suggest to do them but i have soon no progress in weeks!

[TeflonTomDosh]

How long did your cycle take? Did your Nitrites get as high and stall for as long as mine? I know people don't suggest to do them but i have soon no progress in weeks!

My nitrites were gone by week 2, haven't seen a spike in those or ammonia since (highest they got was 5pp). The rock I put in my tank originally was cured though, and I also added a "cycle booster" that was suggested to me by my LFS. So I'm sure that made a difference in my experience.

[banshee]

My cycle was like yours which is why I suggested doing what I did that finally ended it. If you look at the start of my BC14 thread you'll see that my ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all went off the charts and stayed there. I tried not to do water changes but the high ammonia was only causing more die off. I started doing 25% every other day until everything was 0. Once I got everything to zero it stayed there except for a mini cycle when my nem puked silverside in my tank.

[ajmckay]

PCD: Sounds like you need to do some more research on the nitrogen cycle.

 

When we talk about "cycling" our tanks it's essentially referring to the process of establishing an initial equilibrium in the nitrogen cycle. A cycle is not a one time event, but a continuous process. The equations are pretty simple. Equilibrium means the amount of waste being produced in the system is equal to the biological filter's capacity to process it. Normally when we start our tanks the equation is off in one direction or the other (depending on the quality of LR you get and if it's cured vs. uncured it can go either way).

 

Because your tank is taking so long it means that you either have such significant die-off that it's taking this long for your biological filter to build itself up (unlikely IME), or some other variable is off (likely).

 

Sometimes things like adding more live rock, especially if it's not cured very long, can cause a delayed cycle. As for water changes, it really depends. There's no biological rational as to why you absolutely should or should not do water changes during a cycle. It's really up to personal preference and the amount of work you're willing to put into the tank. That being said I'm curious as to why people suggested you must not perform any water changes in your previous threads...

 

By performing large water changes you're effectively removing waste. This means less waste to break down which translates into less work for your biological filtration and eventually a shorter "cycle" (all else being equal - that's a simplification). Now on the other hand too many large water changes and your tank will "cycle" faster, but the biological filter will be weaker (in other words the bacterial populations would be insufficient in quantity to break down any significant additions to your tank). For a better understanding of this think of how bacteria reproduce - through cell division. So doing too many water changes can help you out in the beginning, but hurt you later on when your tank crashes because you add too much too fast. In the end the outcome is similar I would say (when deciding whether or not to do water changes in a new tank).

 

So that brings me back to the point of the thread that your tank is taking a long time to cycle. My thoughts are that either your test kits are bad (take the same sample of water and test it with your kit and some other kit simultaneously), you have something in the tank that is causing an unnatural progression of the nitrogen cycle, or you have something else externally that is leading you to perceive things differently.

 

This could include:

-insufficient flow

-something large has died in the tank, or there is a detritus trap somewhere that has accumulated a bunch of gunk

-you're adding some sort of supplement that is throwing things off

-you got un-cured (or insufficiently cured) live rock - did it smell at all?

-Your test kits are off as mentioned or you aren't following the instructions, or they're contaminated

-your water source is bad

 

If I think of anything else I'll let you know. For now though, keep researching and asking questions. If you don't understand a particular piece of advice you're right to ask questions before following it. Regarding your cycle, I would evaluate the list above and go from there.

 

Good luck.

[Deckoz2302]

PCD: Sounds like you need to do some more research on the nitrogen cycle.

 

When we talk about "cycling" our tanks it's essentially referring to the process of establishing an initial equilibrium in the nitrogen cycle. A cycle is not a one time event, but a continuous process. The equations are pretty simple. Equilibrium means the amount of waste being produced in the system is equal to the biological filter's capacity to process it. Normally when we start our tanks the equation is off in one direction or the other (depending on the quality of LR you get and if it's cured vs. uncured it can go either way).

 

Because your tank is taking so long it means that you either have such significant die-off that it's taking this long for your biological filter to build itself up (unlikely IME), or some other variable is off (likely).

 

Sometimes things like adding more live rock, especially if it's not cured very long, can cause a delayed cycle. As for water changes, it really depends. There's no biological rational as to why you absolutely should or should not do water changes during a cycle. It's really up to personal preference and the amount of work you're willing to put into the tank. That being said I'm curious as to why people suggested you must not perform any water changes in your previous threads...

 

By performing large water changes you're effectively removing waste. This means less waste to break down which translates into less work for your biological filtration and eventually a shorter "cycle" (all else being equal - that's a simplification). Now on the other hand too many large water changes and your tank will "cycle" faster, but the biological filter will be weaker (in other words the bacterial populations would be insufficient in quantity to break down any significant additions to your tank). For a better understanding of this think of how bacteria reproduce - through cell division. So doing too many water changes can help you out in the beginning, but hurt you later on when your tank crashes because you add too much too fast. In the end the outcome is similar I would say (when deciding whether or not to do water changes in a new tank).

 

So that brings me back to the point of the thread that your tank is taking a long time to cycle. My thoughts are that either your test kits are bad (take the same sample of water and test it with your kit and some other kit simultaneously), you have something in the tank that is causing an unnatural progression of the nitrogen cycle, or you have something else externally that is leading you to perceive things differently.

 

This could include:

-insufficient flow

-something large has died in the tank, or there is a detritus trap somewhere that has accumulated a bunch of gunk

-you're adding some sort of supplement that is throwing things off

-you got un-cured (or insufficiently cured) live rock - did it smell at all?

-Your test kits are off as mentioned or you aren't following the instructions, or they're contaminated

-your water source is bad

 

If I think of anything else I'll let you know. For now though, keep researching and asking questions. If you don't understand a particular piece of advice you're right to ask questions before following it. Regarding your cycle, I would evaluate the list above and go from there.

 

Good luck.

 

This is why I originally stated to not do a water change. Some of the things mentioned as causes of prolonged cycle in this post could be possible in your situation

[PureColorDesigns]

PCD: Sounds like you need to do some more research on the nitrogen cycle.

 

When we talk about "cycling" our tanks it's essentially referring to the process of establishing an initial equilibrium in the nitrogen cycle. A cycle is not a one time event, but a continuous process. The equations are pretty simple. Equilibrium means the amount of waste being produced in the system is equal to the biological filter's capacity to process it. Normally when we start our tanks the equation is off in one direction or the other (depending on the quality of LR you get and if it's cured vs. uncured it can go either way).

 

Because your tank is taking so long it means that you either have such significant die-off that it's taking this long for your biological filter to build itself up (unlikely IME), or some other variable is off (likely).

 

Sometimes things like adding more live rock, especially if it's not cured very long, can cause a delayed cycle. As for water changes, it really depends. There's no biological rational as to why you absolutely should or should not do water changes during a cycle. It's really up to personal preference and the amount of work you're willing to put into the tank. That being said I'm curious as to why people suggested you must not perform any water changes in your previous threads...

 

By performing large water changes you're effectively removing waste. This means less waste to break down which translates into less work for your biological filtration and eventually a shorter "cycle" (all else being equal - that's a simplification). Now on the other hand too many large water changes and your tank will "cycle" faster, but the biological filter will be weaker (in other words the bacterial populations would be insufficient in quantity to break down any significant additions to your tank). For a better understanding of this think of how bacteria reproduce - through cell division. So doing too many water changes can help you out in the beginning, but hurt you later on when your tank crashes because you add too much too fast. In the end the outcome is similar I would say (when deciding whether or not to do water changes in a new tank).

 

So that brings me back to the point of the thread that your tank is taking a long time to cycle. My thoughts are that either your test kits are bad (take the same sample of water and test it with your kit and some other kit simultaneously), you have something in the tank that is causing an unnatural progression of the nitrogen cycle, or you have something else externally that is leading you to perceive things differently.

 

This could include:

-insufficient flow

-something large has died in the tank, or there is a detritus trap somewhere that has accumulated a bunch of gunk

-you're adding some sort of supplement that is throwing things off

-you got un-cured (or insufficiently cured) live rock - did it smell at all?

-Your test kits are off as mentioned or you aren't following the instructions, or they're contaminated

-your water source is bad

 

If I think of anything else I'll let you know. For now though, keep researching and asking questions. If you don't understand a particular piece of advice you're right to ask questions before following it. Regarding your cycle, I would evaluate the list above and go from there.

 

Good luck.

 

Would Hydor Koralia 240 and a 425 powerhead do the job?

How do i know what is the correct amount of flow?

I assume nothing had died in the tank as ammonia has stayed at zero and i don't visually see anything. wouldn't i see ammonia spike if something had died?

 

I am not sure about the rock... I bout 13lbs in beginning from one LFS and it had no hitchhikers or growth on it but was purple and i liked it.. It isn't porous at all and i found after reading here for a few weeks that i probably picked ####ty rock but i am still unsure. It didn't smell at all tho but it did take me 2-3 hours before i got it into the tank. The 6lbs i bought last week was very porous and had all kinds of hitchhikers and growth on it and i assumed it might benefit the cycle.

 

My test kit is good as i have taken water to my LFS for a second opinion multiple times to assure he got the same reading as i did. I also buy my RO water premixed from this LFS and i tested it for Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and phosphates which all came back at zero.

 

I started my cycle with a damsel (LFS suggested and i now know this is bad) which died 24 hours later and i removed him. That was when my ammonia spiked to 8ppm +! Again remember this was day one of my cycle.

 

I understand how the cycle works to a point as i have done a lot of reading but when i don't see progression for weeks i start to wonder if something is wrong.

 

What exactly is die-off and if i was having this would i see ammonia going up?

 

Your help is greatly appreciated i have felt very welcomed on this forum! Although i feel like i ask dumb questions! LOL

[Pjanssen]

No Dumb questions! especially when we're talking about the future well being of living creatures. We all learn by reading other peoples questions and ensuing answers. Keep on asking!

[PureColorDesigns]

This is why I originally stated to not do a water change. Some of the things mentioned as causes of prolonged cycle in this post could be possible in your situation

 

When i do a water change should i blast the rock with my turkey baster a bit before hand? I have seen people suggest this before but i don't want to do it if it will cause me to suck up any good bacteria i might have.

[Deckoz2302]

You restarted or added to your cycle adding more.rock. once.ammonia has past that first time you.will.likely never see a.spike again unless your tank is.crashing

[ajmckay]

Would Hydor Koralia 240 and a 425 powerhead do the job?

How do i know what is the correct amount of flow?

I assume nothing had died in the tank as ammonia has stayed at zero and i don't visually see anything. wouldn't i see ammonia spike if something had died?

 

I am not sure about the rock... I bout 13lbs in beginning from one LFS and it had no hitchhikers or growth on it but was purple and i liked it.. It isn't porous at all and i found after reading here for a few weeks that i probably picked ####ty rock but i am still unsure. It didn't smell at all tho but it did take me 2-3 hours before i got it into the tank. The 6lbs i bought last week was very porous and had all kinds of hitchhikers and growth on it and i assumed it might benefit the cycle.

 

My test kit is good as i have taken water to my LFS for a second opinion multiple times to assure he got the same reading as i did. I also buy my RO water premixed from this LFS and i tested it for Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and phosphates which all came back at zero.

 

I started my cycle with a damsel (LFS suggested and i now know this is bad) which died 24 hours later and i removed him. That was when my ammonia spiked to 8ppm +! Again remember this was day one of my cycle.

 

I understand how the cycle works to a point as i have done a lot of reading but when i don't see progression for weeks i start to wonder if something is wrong.

 

What exactly is die-off and if i was having this would i see ammonia going up?

 

Your help is greatly appreciated i have felt very welcomed on this forum! Although i feel like i ask dumb questions! LOL

 

 

Regarding flow, reef systems need more flow than you might think. In our systems we're mostly using the rock itself as the biological filtration. So think about this, the bacteria break down the waste in our systems and comprise the bio-filter. They live on and in the rock, and the water carries their food source to them since they don't really move on their own. That being said the more water you have flowing over, under, and through your rock the better. Flow allows the bacteria to constantly work. If there is insufficient water movement the bacteria could be limited as to how fast they can grow and how much they can grow. That being said flow is relative, though have you ever been in the ocean? I find it hard to even stay in one spot the waves are constantly moving things around. I completely missed the part about your powerheads at the beginning of the thread! You should have sufficient flow! Though honestly you could probably stand to replace the 240 with another 425 (just my opinion as the koralias give off a very broad flow pattern).

 

 

So to continue the damsel was a bad call, I can't believe people still suggest that... It doesn't make any sense with knowledge of better methods and you can even buy "bacteria in a bottle" that people have reported success with (my personal opinion is to save the $$ and just start the tank right though!). This could have been a large part of your problem. Still, it's speculative. Adding the additional rock probably delayed the timing some as well. Recall that the initial cycle is all about establishing equilibrium. The more changes you make the greater the chance of resetting the progress and delaying things. To be honest I'm somewhat stumped as to why it's taken so long, but it was probably the cumulative effects of several things that led to the delays.

 

Normally when I start a tank it doesn't take but a week or so to establish the initial equilibrium - there is usually some die off from the LR. Die off is when stuff on the rock dies. There can be all sorts of worms, crustaceans, bacteria, algae, corals, plants, etc. that perish due to the transport and change in water conditions. The amount of die-off can be controlled, but to a point. Once that initial equilibrium happens I start adding livestock, very slowly. First I test, and as long as ammonia and nitrite are 0ppm and nitrate is reasonable I add a few herbivorous snails. I wait a week, test again, and if everything is good I add some more. I do this for a few weeks until I have my CUC. Usually this is the point where adding a fish is okay. It's been about 3-4 weeks and the tank has slowly built up the bio-filter such that the addition of a fish shouldn't shock the system too much. Note that I usually buy the fish several weeks earlier and QT them before adding to my display tank.

[PureColorDesigns]

Regarding flow, reef systems need more flow than you might think. In our systems we're mostly using the rock itself as the biological filtration. So think about this, the bacteria break down the waste in our systems and comprise the bio-filter. They live on and in the rock, and the water carries their food source to them since they don't really move on their own. That being said the more water you have flowing over, under, and through your rock the better. Flow allows the bacteria to constantly work. If there is insufficient water movement the bacteria could be limited as to how fast they can grow and how much they can grow. That being said flow is relative, though have you ever been in the ocean? I find it hard to even stay in one spot the waves are constantly moving things around. I completely missed the part about your powerheads at the beginning of the thread! You should have sufficient flow! Though honestly you could probably stand to replace the 240 with another 425 (just my opinion as the koralias give off a very broad flow pattern).

 

 

So to continue the damsel was a bad call, I can't believe people still suggest that... It doesn't make any sense with knowledge of better methods and you can even buy "bacteria in a bottle" that people have reported success with (my personal opinion is to save the $$ and just start the tank right though!). This could have been a large part of your problem. Still, it's speculative. Adding the additional rock probably delayed the timing some as well. Recall that the initial cycle is all about establishing equilibrium. The more changes you make the greater the chance of resetting the progress and delaying things. To be honest I'm somewhat stumped as to why it's taken so long, but it was probably the cumulative effects of several things that led to the delays.

 

Normally when I start a tank it doesn't take but a week or so to establish the initial equilibrium - there is usually some die off from the LR. Die off is when stuff on the rock dies. There can be all sorts of worms, crustaceans, bacteria, algae, corals, plants, etc. that perish due to the transport and change in water conditions. The amount of die-off can be controlled, but to a point. Once that initial equilibrium happens I start adding livestock, very slowly. First I test, and as long as ammonia and nitrite are 0ppm and nitrate is reasonable I add a few herbivorous snails. I wait a week, test again, and if everything is good I add some more. I do this for a few weeks until I have my CUC. Usually this is the point where adding a fish is okay. It's been about 3-4 weeks and the tank has slowly built up the bio-filter such that the addition of a fish shouldn't shock the system too much. Note that I usually buy the fish several weeks earlier and QT them before adding to my display tank.

 

I thank you all for your help. When i went home last night and did my water test all of the nitrites had went away within 24 hours because now my ammonia and Nitrites are at Zero!

[ajmckay]

Great news! If ammonia and nitrite are 0 then you can begin stocking - slowly - following the method I outlined above. Don't try to rush things just yet, and make sure to test your water before adding anything. Only add livestock if ammonia and nitrite are 0. Nitrates don't have to be 0, just reasonable. I would say anything below 20ppm and you're fine for most things except SPS corals, which could do poorly with nitrates that high.

[makokak]

 

 

Regarding flow, reef systems need more flow than you might think. In our systems we're mostly using the rock itself as the biological filtration. So think about this, the bacteria break down the waste in our systems and comprise the bio-filter. They live on and in the rock, and the water carries their food source to them since they don't really move on their own. That being said the more water you have flowing over, under, and through your rock the better. Flow allows the bacteria to constantly work. If there is insufficient water movement the bacteria could be limited as to how fast they can grow and how much they can grow. That being said flow is relative, though have you ever been in the ocean? I find it hard to even stay in one spot the waves are constantly moving things around. I completely missed the part about your powerheads at the beginning of the thread! You should have sufficient flow! Though honestly you could probably stand to replace the 240 with another 425 (just my opinion as the koralias give off a very broad flow pattern).

 

 

So to continue the damsel was a bad call, I can't believe people still suggest that... It doesn't make any sense with knowledge of better methods and you can even buy "bacteria in a bottle" that people have reported success with (my personal opinion is to save the $$ and just start the tank right though!). This could have been a large part of your problem. Still, it's speculative. Adding the additional rock probably delayed the timing some as well. Recall that the initial cycle is all about establishing equilibrium. The more changes you make the greater the chance of resetting the progress and delaying things. To be honest I'm somewhat stumped as to why it's taken so long, but it was probably the cumulative effects of several things that led to the delays.

 

Normally when I start a tank it doesn't take but a week or so to establish the initial equilibrium - there is usually some die off from the LR. Die off is when stuff on the rock dies. There can be all sorts of worms, crustaceans, bacteria, algae, corals, plants, etc. that perish due to the transport and change in water conditions. The amount of die-off can be controlled, but to a point. Once that initial equilibrium happens I start adding livestock, very slowly. First I test, and as long as ammonia and nitrite are 0ppm and nitrate is reasonable I add a few herbivorous snails. I wait a week, test again, and if everything is good I add some more. I do this for a few weeks until I have my CUC. Usually this is the point where adding a fish is okay. It's been about 3-4 weeks and the tank has slowly built up the bio-filter such that the addition of a fish shouldn't shock the system too much. Note that I usually buy the fish several weeks earlier and QT them before adding to my display tank.

 

I highly suggest to the OP that read on QT(quarantine tank). Please read on. no body wants to learn this hobby in a hard way!

 

Read, Read, Read, Read!

 

Some are quick to pick up the idea and learn it fast. Me? it took me about 2 years before i have total confidence that i know about reefing from start to finish.

 

Have a game plan!