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Unethical reef keeping


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#26
JamesHL88

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You could have treated the fish in a hospital tank. :unsure: If not, instead of flushing, cutting its spinal cord at the base of the head is probably a more humane way to kill it.



How to Humanely Euthanize a Fish


I agree there are better options than flushing, but i would not wanna explain to my wife why she cought me cutting up a clownfish.

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Edited by JamesHL88, 27 February 2012 - 02:33 PM.


#27
altolamprologus

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Completely off topic but I have Calvuses in my one tank. I adore the Tanganyika Cichlids.

I wish I had calvuses! I only had compressiceps.

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#28
ajmckay

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Interesting post, though not anything that hasn't been covered before...

From my point of view, an aquarium is more on the side of a hobby than a housepet. Then again, where do you draw the distinction? In some parts of the world a dog is food just like a fish. And why not? I think you could say that a bird can express some emotion also, yet they're also kept in cages like a fish.

My opinion is that we are acting ethically and responsibly when we try our best to create a suitable environment for the animals we wish to keep. We cannot tell another human what animals to keep, so the members on this forum discuss the "how" and advance the theories on how best to set up and maintain our tanks.

To say that a fish needs x amount of gallons of space is not really a decision of ethics or responsibility, but more of a guideline that changes as we find out more. I agree that fish are instinct driven animals and they don't really care about much as long as their basic needs are met and you take their instincts into consideration. For example we know a tangs instinct is to swim, thus it makes sense to try to accommodate it's natural habits.

Regarding the treatment of our inhabitants I think it is both an ethical choice and a responsibility. It's ethical because we are still dealing with a life form, and ethically it's important that humans value life. If we didn't then there would be problems (as there have been with some individuals through history).

Responsibly it's also important that we keep our livestock healthy. As seabass said, it's considered much more responsible in the aquarium hobby to remove a sick fish to a hospital tank and attempt to treat it (given the wide array of modern treatments available to the avg. hobbyist). It's expected that most people will have something die on them at some point due to error, however, if we all just flushed our fish instead of taking steps to prevent and cure illness then we would literally be wasting the reefs and denying future generations the opportunity to experience them, either in the wild or in a tank.

#29
cuber14

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I EAT SUSHI AND SASHIMI there i said it.Because of the respect I have for my fish I now vow to eat my sashimi in another room.Is it wrong to love and eat the same thing? wait no never mind iknow the answer but have a go at it guys.

#30
JamesHL88

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I have another confession..... theres an anemone somewhere in my towns sewer system.

#31
Islandoftiki

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But then you have things like mantis shrimp that would seem to be able to do some level of reasoning or problem solving. Like solving a Rubik's cube, for example.

#32
northeastern

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I try hard to keep my fishes and other live stock happy. I don't think my fish have any idea there is another world they could be living in so I don't think they are upset at all. I do know my clown hates me. Idk why but he bites my hand all the time. Even though that hand feeds him... I also get mad when any part of my live stock dies. Not because I lost money but because I took something out of a tank that it was alive in and killed it for no reason. that is not right.

But when comparing to keeping a fish vs a mammal like a dog I don't think they compare. I was once ripped into on this site because I was not fully prepared to handle an ich outbreak. I was told that "if you owned a horse and did not treat him properly when he is sick you'd go to jail" the fact is these fish are not horses or dogs or anything, they are fish. I'm not saying torture them but killing a fish =/ = killing a dog.



Lets be serious what one reefer calls his pet another uses as food for his angler.

Edited by northeastern, 27 February 2012 - 03:01 PM.


#33
JamesHL88

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But then you have things like mantis shrimp that would seem to be able to do some level of reasoning or problem solving. Like solving a Rubik's cube, for example.


:o i pull the stickers off and make it look like i solved it B)

#34
patback

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This may be inn bad taste, but when my clown died, my girlfriend wanted to bury it... Ground was frozen... Left it in freezer for time being.... Blah blah blah..... Can I feed my dead clown to my corals? Gotta be healthier than a silverside from a dirty duck poo filled creek.

#35
cuber14

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:o i pull the stickers off and make it look like i solved it B)

I pulled stickers off and moved them so no one could solve it.

#36
brandon429

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it may be wrong but in time Ive come to define ethics in terms of aquaculturing. If you have a clownfish thats been tank grown fifty generations over and you want to flush it I don't care. same for any coral you can name as long as its not from the ocean. if its tank raised/frag grown, I see it equal to the cock roaches we step on instead of carefully catching and relocating outside. I know that sounds harsh because its reef life

the insult Im guilty of is throwing out handfulls of any live rock that had a spot of algae on it. I didn't even try to correct the matter back in the day when algae could wreck a pico before we knew of peroxide, I just tossed it to ensure the balance of my tank. No live rock back then was tank raised it was all harvested and I chucked about 20 pounds of it right in the trash.

Edited by brandon429, 28 February 2012 - 06:09 AM.

one very old pico

 


#37
Dnato

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the fact is these fish are not horses or dogs or anything, they are fish. I'm not saying torture them but killing a fish =/ = killing a dog.


Mainly because its not socially acceptable? Scientifically its no different right?
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#38
Whys

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I think its because the general consensus is that fish dont feel pain.


That's because they aren't fuzzy and don't have facial expressions we like to think we can read. In the words of Jack Handy "If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

:D


I think we should all try and take good care of living things, rather than assume living things we can't "read" simply don't feel anything. That's arrogance on ignorance. That said, given that all living things eventually die, what is an "appropriate" way for a fish or snail or invert to die? Of old age? How many die that way in the wild? A decent life is more important than mode of death, IMO.

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#39
BLoCkCliMbeR

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#40
JamesHL88

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Lol wtf was that?

#41
patback

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That's because they aren't fuzzy and don't have facial expressions we like to think we can read. In the words of Jack Handy "If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

:D


I think we should all try and take good care of living things, rather than assume living things we can't "read" simply don't feel anything. That's arrogance on ignorance. That said, given that all living things eventually die, what is an "appropriate" way for a fish or snail or invert to die? Of old age? How many die that way in the wild? A decent life is more important than mode of death, IMO.

There are plenty of people who would not care one bit if somebody sliced up a fish for No reason, but would throw a hissy fit and protest if they slaughtered a dolphin. I think it has nothing to do with "fuzzieness" or showin emotion or anything of tht sort.

I was taught that fish felt fear for their lives, and that is as far as feelings go. Explain why you can touch a fish out of water quickly and abruptly and it will flob everywhere, but with a steady hand you can shove aRusty hook slowly and carefully through any body part and it won't flinch a muscle.

#42
marc3lo19

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#43
JamesHL88

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It looks like a cat/poptart farting rainbows

#44
Whys

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There are plenty of people who would not care one bit if somebody sliced up a fish for No reason, but would throw a hissy fit and protest if they slaughtered a dolphin. I think it has nothing to do with "fuzzieness" or showin emotion or anything of tht sort.

I was taught that fish felt fear for their lives, and that is as far as feelings go. Explain why you can touch a fish out of water quickly and abruptly and it will flob everywhere, but with a steady hand you can shove aRusty hook slowly and carefully through any body part and it won't flinch a muscle.


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See that smile? Lots of people think they do. It's literally built into their bone structure. Mean angry dolphines smile when they attack! :)

btw, there is no scientific means for measuring pain. Anecdotal evidence is based entirely on assumption. Just say'n.

Edited by Whys, 27 February 2012 - 03:28 PM.

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#45
Mini-Dude

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#46
BLoCkCliMbeR

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I hate you

why because that research is ground breaking?

#47
Mini-Dude

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why because that research is ground breaking?

no cause you made me addicted to playing the nyanit game
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#48
Islandoftiki

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:o i pull the stickers off and make it look like i solved it B)


Yeah, they didn't show the part where the mantis shrimp did the same thing. :)

#49
JamesHL88

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:lol:

why because that research is ground breaking?


Lmao

Edited by JamesHL88, 27 February 2012 - 03:49 PM.


#50
Islandoftiki

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There are plenty of people who would not care one bit if somebody sliced up a fish for No reason, but would throw a hissy fit and protest if they slaughtered a dolphin. I think it has nothing to do with "fuzzieness" or showin emotion or anything of tht sort.


That's funny you mention dolphins. I just ordered a dolphin for my 2 gallon pico. That and two tangs.