Marine Ich ?! Mixed advice...

[northeastern]

Hello All, I am very new to fish keeping and am attempting to do it right and slowly, and after waiting and testing waiting and testing I finally added my first fish, o'clown, on friday. Today when I fed him (and my fire-shrimp) I noticed white spots on my clown (he's been scared of me so getting a real good look at him has been somewhat difficult, i've also tried to let him be to not add any stress). He's been eating and moving all around the tank and seems healthy but I am confident this is ich! I'm very upset as some people I'm sure have been in the past.

 

I'm a college kid and don't have the recourses, money or time to start a quarantine tank. I've read about soaking his food with garlic and all about qt methods but again I really cannot do that. I've also read some very bad things about any medication (like Wardley's Ick Away) and am afraid of adding that.

 

 

What I see: about 7 small white dots on his right and 3 on his left.

 

What I have: a 8 gallon set up with 10 lbs lr, 5 lbs crushed coral, a fire-shrimp, cuc, a kenya tree and the o'clown. Long term I want to add more corals and one more small fish.

 

And to add some background I specifically researched respected lfs and went to skipton's in boston watched a tank of o'clowns for a while and finally asked for one, and was happy with the one I got. he looked very healthy, colorful and was moving around nicely. He still looks very healthy (in my not-expert opinion) besides what looks like salt stuck to his sides...

 

I'm doing my best at keeping everything constant and keeping his stress down (but again I noticed the spots today) but what are my real options? Will he die? Will I ever be able to add another fish if he does not die? Everything I read (besides qt tank options) seems to be a good option for one person and a bad option for another...

 

 

I am also sorry for starting another thread I am ure you more experienced reefers see a lot but I'm going in circles with my research and dead end after dead end...

[persim]

I had a similar situation when I first started a couple years ago. Went super slow, waited 2 months before I got my first fish. Looked great at store and then about 3 weeks later I noticed the spots show up. Tried all the non copper treatments I could find. In my opinion they are all crap cause nothing worked. My fish eventually died.

 

Other than a QT tank with copper meds you are pretty limited with what you can try. I had read about raising the temperature in the tank slowly and keeping it at around 85-87 for a while. Also lowering the salinity in the tank slowly as well. Can't remember the exact details of both these methods but they are on the boards here somewhere, my fish died before I ever got to try them.

 

Don't worry if the fish dies. You will just have to keep your tank fish less for about 1-2 months. Apparently ick can not survive without a fish host. I waited 2 months before I put a new fish in and have never had any ick problems since the first one, about 8-9 fish ago.

[nor_cal_nano]

If he's not going to QT the fish in the future there's no real point to going fallow for 2 months.

[Dani3d]

if you don't have any coral or invertebrate, then you can do hyposalinity treatment but that require DEDICATION and a very precise refractometer to keep the salinity at 0.009 for 4 weeks minimum and then raise the salinity VERY SLOWLY, no more than 0.003 point per day so going from 0.009 to 1.025 should take about a week.

 

If you do not have monetary resource to get into saltwater, you should not do it. If you don't have the budget and the time for it, better not get into that until you are ready for it.

 

No matter what you do you will always spend more money than you expected. If you are not ready for that, then don't. It's called being responsible. I would not even put a single fish in 8 gallons...It like living in a box for years with nearly no room to move.

[northeastern]

if you don't have any coral or invertebrate, then you can do hyposalinity treatment but that require DEDICATION and a very precise refractometer to keep the salinity at 0.009 for 4 weeks minimum and then raise the salinity VERY SLOWLY, no more than 0.003 point per day so going from 0.009 to 1.025 should take about a week.

 

If you do not have monetary resource to get into saltwater, you should not do it. If you don't have the budget and the time for it, better not get into that until you are ready for it.

 

No matter what you do you will always spend more money than you expected. If you are not ready for that, then don't. It's called being responsible. I would not even put a single fish in 8 gallons...It like living in a box for years with nearly no room to move.

 

Well this was not the type of response I'm use to see'ing on here. I'm sorry im not you but i think im doing better than a lot of people that just buy a tank some fish some sand and let them all die in a week.

 

 

I am still looking for suggestions. Should I no longer buy from that store? it came very well recommended from local reefers here in boston. My shrimp is safe correct?

[Builder Anthony]

Take your fish out if you can.Place it in a container with a top with a airpump.The size should be at least a half gallon.Every day change all the water.Make your water in advanced.Im dealing with ich right now and this is what im going to be doing next once i cacth them.After you see no ich .....wait 2 weeks before adding them back in.Clownfish fight ich well but you still need to do water changes as much as possible.Clean the container as well or better yet have two containers.So one is awalys crystal clean since it can attach to the walls.

[northeastern]

If all I need is a 1/2 gallon tank for him that would be very easy to set up, but it seems mean to put my fish in a tank that small. I would ideally not like to put him in anything under 5 gallons.

 

 

Is there any chance it can ever go away once he gets less stressed? Or will it always be in my tank from now on? I understand it needs a fish to live but if my clown makes a defense to it (which i know he can do if he s healthy) the parasites will have no place to grow from and should eventually all die right?

 

 

Any chance I should try to talk to the lfs I got the fish from and see what they say or is there no chance they will help?

[persim]

Well this was not the type of response I'm use to see'ing on here. I'm sorry im not you but i think im doing better than a lot of people that just buy a tank some fish some sand and let them all die in a week.

 

 

I am still looking for suggestions. Should I no longer buy from that store? it came very well recommended from local reefers here in boston. My shrimp is safe correct?

 

This is the reason I stopped frequenting reefing boards. While there are a lot of people willing to help, there seems to be just as many "elitist" reefers who have nothing better to do than nitpick everything. Just because you can't setup a QT doesn't me you aren't dedicated.

 

Your shrimp will be fine, ick only affects fish. I would say if that store came highly recommended by other reefers then don't worry about this 1 bad experience. No matter how good a LFS is they will always have fish that die or get sick, it's just part of the business. Now if you get another fish from them that winds up with ick then I would suggest going somewhere else.

[Builder Anthony]

well a five gallon would be better but would you have the resources to do a five gallon water change every day plus clean it and also have premixed water for it everyday.Thats why i suggested a smaller size.The fish will not be the happiest but it will be alive.

 

Your fish has a parasite that is feeding on him.You need to get the ich out of its water.

[northeastern]

This is the reason I stopped frequenting reefing boards. While there are a lot of people willing to help, there seems to be just as many "elitist" reefers who have nothing better to do than nitpick everything. Just because you can't setup a QT doesn't me you aren't dedicated.

 

Your shrimp will be fine, ick only affects fish. I would say if that store came highly recommended by other reefers then don't worry about this 1 bad experience. No matter how good a LFS is they will always have fish that die or get sick, it's just part of the business. Now if you get another fish from them that winds up with ick then I would suggest going somewhere else.

 

Elitist can think what they want but if its not for people like me (new people getting into the hobby they will have to say goodbye to new and better technologies and innovations, they need new people to attract growth and introduce money). But thank you for your help, this board has been by far one of the nicest i've even been on.

 

 

As for setting up a small qt tank, do i need a filter powerhead or anything like that in there? or are those things only needed for the lr and corals? Is there any chance he will just get better and the ich will die? he seems fine, no scathing no odd movements, he's still scared of me and hides in his little nook when i come to close but if i watch him from a little distance he seems good. he explores the tank and swims up and down. He seems to like on of the corers a lot but he doesn't scratch on it. He only darts during feeding time or when someone walks near the tank, he's an odd guy he likes to look u and swim from the front to the back of the tank.

[Builder Anthony]

Your up agaisnt a very very had thing to get rid of.And i really doubt it will go away.Do a seach for ichs lifecycle and read that.The half gallon idea isnt the greatest because when the ich searches for a host its in a smaller system and easier to find a host.It may also attach to your liverock.Ich multiplys so if you have a little now it will most likely increase.If its near the gills of your fish its bad.

[MedRed]

if you don't have any coral or invertebrate, then you can do hyposalinity treatment but that require DEDICATION and a very precise refractometer to keep the salinity at 0.009 for 4 weeks minimum and then raise the salinity VERY SLOWLY, no more than 0.003 point per day so going from 0.009 to 1.025 should take about a week.

 

If you do not have monetary resource to get into saltwater, you should not do it. If you don't have the budget and the time for it, better not get into that until you are ready for it.

 

No matter what you do you will always spend more money than you expected. If you are not ready for that, then don't. It's called being responsible. I would not even put a single fish in 8 gallons...It like living in a box for years with nearly no room to move.

 

This...

 

and this isn't going to end well. You don't buy a horse if you can't afford properly care for it. The same should be thought of any pet. It's not mean for someone to give you good advice that you don't want to hear. The fish store is not the problem... ich lives in virtually any system and will rear its head when conditions are not right or a fish is stressed. You run the risk of introducing ich or igniting dormant ich in your tank with any new fish.

 

If you honestly can't afford a quality quarantine, I'd recommend finding someone that can ASAP. Your LFS will probably take it back and treat it. Marine ich spreads and kills very quickly.

 

Looking at your threads, I personally feel you rushed stocking after your cycle. You were also discouraged about adding a clown to such a small tank. Often on these boards, people will disregard what they don't want to hear and cling to the snippets of advice that go along with what they want to hear. I wish you the best of luck, but unless you get your clown some help soon, it will be a goner.

 

Your best bet is to find the clown a new home, as your tank will need to remain without a fish for 6-8 weeks.

[persim]

As for setting up a small qt tank, do i need a filter powerhead or anything like that in there? or are those things only needed for the lr and corals?

Sorry, don't know much about QT tanks. I'm sure proper procedure can be found somewhere on the boards here. I'm pretty sure you need some way to get oxygen in the tank, be it from an air stone or a small powerhead/filter. I'm pretty sure the only other thing required in the tank is some pvc tubing for the fish to hide out in.

 

Like Builder Anthony said, do some searching on the lifecycle of ick. The more you know the better the chances you will have. If your able to do a small QT tank, you can treat with copper meds and probably have a greater chance at success.

[MedRed]

a small, uncycled quarantine tank with copper medication is sure death... especially since this clown will have to live in this tank for up to two months before the main tank is ich free.

[northeastern]

Again I apologize for not diving 2k deep into this hobby before I even get a feel for it but maybe im weird for feeling that way. I also don't think I rushed anything, and I've also seen many builds on here house clowns and receive compliments in smaller tanks.

 

This hobby seems to be ruined by untrustworthy lfs and other hobbiest that only accept their way as being right. But at least im trying to look for help eventhough all I was told that I am irresponsible...

[MedRed]

Again I apologize for not diving 2k deep into this hobby before I even get a feel for it but maybe im weird for feeling that way. I also don't think I rushed anything, and I've also seen many builds on here house clowns and receive compliments in smaller tanks.

 

This hobby seems to be ruined by untrustworthy lfs and other hobbiest that only accept their way as being right. But at least im trying to look for help eventhough all I was told that I am irresponsible...

 

You are being passive aggressive instead of heeding advice you don't want to hear. Because someone else does something wrong doesn't mean it's ok to follow their lead. No one said you had to dive $2k deep, but you should make sure you can do it right if you're going to do it. If you're on a budget, purchasing someone's existing system may have been the most cost effective way of entering the hobby. Again, you wouldn't buy a horse because you wanted one and not have $ to provide it the adequate space and care. When animal services knocked on your door, would you tell them, "I apologize for not diving $20k into this hobby before I even get a feel for it." It's a given that every fish store is going to have ich present in their systems. I would argue the stress of moving to a new home, and possibly the conditions are what activated it in your case. You can't blame your lfs. I've read too many "my clown has ich" posts on this forum and others where clowns were added straight away to an under cycled tank with no means of quarantine.

 

I've given you the best advice in this thread. If you can't afford a proper quarantine, get your clown to someone that has a proper quarantine ASAP or you will more than likely lose it very quickly by doing nothing or trying to treat it with copper in a half gallon of water. You can't put fish back in your display tank for a good long while and trying to house your clown in half a gallon for that amount of time is cruel. In the mean time, you can work on your corals and your inverts.

 

Ultimately, the blame is on you. What are you going to do to rectify the situation? Do not pout and point fingers at your LFS or other members criticizing the things that got you to this point. This is one of those lessons you learn. Jumping into this hobby without the necessary time and/or resources is the surest way to end up with dead fish, dead corals, and a "getting out of the hobby" thread posted in your honor.

[northeastern]

I get that something needs to be done, thank you, but I do not see how this is all my fauly. regardless of what you say my research and advice i've been given tells me my tank is more than acceptable for a small clown. He seems happy and eats well. If it was the stress of moving him that caused the outbreak then that seems unavoidable as the move took 5 min total, not counting acclimating him.

 

I don't think I jumped into the hobby all, I researched and did everything correct, I did not rush into anything even if you seem to think so my tanks stable and gets all the attention it needs. No I did not plan on having a qt tank because I was told more than once with such a small tank and live stock amount it would be unnecessary, I geuss they were wrong. Im doing my best at not killing anything and it seemsunfair and rude for people to be comparing me to someone that puts multiple fish in an uncycled tank. I do not see my situation to be like that at all. I honestly think that other than not having a qt tank I've done nothing wrong.

 

And I've read multiple times ich will not always kill a fish, especially a clown... I will now start to research and look for a cheap qt setup and start talking to lfs about help,

[NathanF]

northeastern, last year I ran into marine ich. After a lot of research I set up a quarantine/hospital tank to treat my fish. I documented how I did it.

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...p;mode=threaded

 

In short, I got the tank jumpstarted from zero, my fish treated, and returned to the display tank without losing anyone. There were a few bumps along the way but they too are documented along with lessons learned. Hope it helps.

[northeastern]

Thanks a lot nathan

 

 

Im confused as to why some people say my fish will die within days if untreated while others say if I keep him unstressed hell be ok...

 

 

 

EDIT: update - the dots are all gone, i know i know this can happen but i first saw them yesterday, and they're one today? seems to be too fast for the average life cycle of the parasite. hopefully it was just same sand stuck to his coat caused by my water change. he seems to be doing great today. moving around WAY more than ever and hasn't stopped. feeding time soon.

[Builder Anthony]

Nows the time to do a big water change because the stuff is multiplying.You cant see it with the naked eye..............yet

[nor_cal_nano]

You can set up a legit QT for 30 bucks. Is money really the issue..?

[northeastern]

Ok. I was planning an a change soon either way as per schedule. Would that take some of the eggs out of the tank?

 

My fish seems a lot more comfortable in the tank and is moving and eating more than ever. Im really hoping his stress levels fell, he got healthy and fought off the ich by himself, which imve hears happens.

 

I will keep everyone updated.

 

Norcal the only real issue is was I not prepared to build a qt tank and I posted on here as I started my qt research. 30 bucks would be no issue, I just didn't know that was possible. I don't have any extra equipment laying around so I expected to have to pay 100 plus as a small setup would run...

[d9hp]

Ok. I was planning an a change soon either way as per schedule. Would that take some of the eggs out of the tank?

 

No. It won't help you out. Read about the life cycle of crypto and you'll understand why. That's the equivalent of pissing on a forrest fire

 

My fish seems a lot more comfortable in the tank and is moving and eating more than ever. Im really hoping his stress levels fell, he got healthy and fought off the ich by himself, which imve hears happens.

 

I will keep everyone updated.

 

Norcal the only real issue is was I not prepared to build a qt tank and I posted on here as I started my qt research. 30 bucks would be no issue, I just didn't know that was possible. I don't have any extra equipment laying around so I expected to have to pay 100 plus as a small setup would run...

 

It will rear its head again because it will continue to live in your fishes gills. It won't 'breed' out.

[MedRed]

update?

[MedRed]

update?