myth about bio balls and nitrate factories

[xxbrianxx]

So I've still been seeing a bunch of people replacing bio balls with LR or LR rubble claiming that bio balls are a nitrate factory. Am I missing something here? Because I really don't understand...I did some research and these seem to be the main arguments.

 

1. Bio balls trap detritus and allow nitrates to build up

So does LR rubble. LR probably wouldn't as much, but the amount of LR you can fit in a given area provides much less surface area than bio balls. And either way if you use bio balls properly and place an efficient mechanical filter before them, to trap any detritus, there won't be any detritus to get stuck in the bio balls.

 

2. Bio balls are too efficient and breaking down nutrients that anaerobic bacteria cannot keep up, creating an excess of nitrates

Better to have nitrates than ammonia/nitrite right?

 

3. Using only bio balls doesn't allow for any anaerobic bacteria(unlike a DSB), resulting in excess nitrates

Most people don't run DSB's and plain LR with a 1-2" sandbed won't provide any de-nitrification either, so you'd still need to deal with the excess nitrates....bio balls are just more efficient at getting the cycle to that endpoint (in terms of space)

 

Any thoughts on this? Like I said I see way too many people shying away from bio balls and after doing research and thinking I can't find any valid reasons behind this...but maybe I'm wrong! lol

[Pickle010]

Over the years I've seen many systems set up with or without the bio balls that where awesome - from my understanding bio balls need to be maintained and that's where the problem is. People toss them in a forget about them and at some point the trouble starts. Even if you tossed LR rubble in the back of the tank you would still need to maintain it otherwise you are going to have all kinds of garbage collecting in the back of the tank.

 

I've always suggested that people do not use either LR rubble or bio balls in the back of the tank. There just isn't any need for it since the rock in the display should be more than enough.

 

Could they benefit a tank? Sure - as long as you are going to pull them at regular interval and wash them off as well as cleaning out the compartment they are in. I much rather blow off the rocks in the display with a turkey baster while doing water changes and not have to worry about it.

[sae647]

well you didnt seem to notice that bioballs do not provide areas for anaerobic denitrifiers, while rock does.

[wombat]

the amount of LR you can fit in a given area provides much less surface area than bio balls.

 

The opposite is true. Real live rock is incredibly porous and has a ton of surface area.

 

There is also abundant space deep inside of live rock for anaerobic denitrification, and tons of examples of folks keeping nitrate very low with live rock as the sole biological filtration.

 

Having said that, I think the term "nitrate factory" is silly. All functioning reef tanks are producing nitrate and could be termed "nitrate factories".

[xxbrianxx]

well you didnt seem to notice that bioballs do not provide areas for anaerobic denitrifiers, while rock does.

 

I'm sure it does but is it actually significant? Could a reasonable amount of LR keep up with the nutrient needs of a reef tank?

 

The opposite is true. Real live rock is incredibly porous and has a ton of surface area.

 

There is also abundant space deep inside of live rock for anaerobic denitrification, and tons of examples of folks keeping nitrate very low with live rock as the sole biological filtration.

 

Having said that, I think the term "nitrate factory" is silly. All functioning reef tanks are producing nitrate and could be termed "nitrate factories".

 

Hm, didn't know that. Why did they even invent bio balls then if they aren't as space efficient as LR?

[wombat]

Hm, didn't know that. Why did they even invent bio balls then if they aren't as space efficient as LR?

 

Price, and they have plenty of uses in freshwater or fish only systems. They were also invented well before the creation of the industry of collecting and transporting big heavy ocean rocks halfway across the world. As you might guess you need a pretty large scale in order for the costs of that process to even be close to worth it.

[chrishayes]

I'm sure it does but is it actually significant? Could a reasonable amount of LR keep up with the nutrient needs of a reef tank?

 

Yes, as long as the rock is not oversaturated with high levels of P04 and N03 from neglect and improper water flow.

 

Hm, didn't know that. Why did they even invent bio balls then if they aren't as space efficient as LR?

 

They are EXTREMELY efficient at oxidizing ammonia>nitrite>nitrate. Problem is, thats where it ends. So you have a buildup of nitrate overtime and no way for them to be processed naturally. They are far more efficient though than live rock due to the oxygenation.

 

Where live rock and sand deeper than 3ish"(debatable) shines is by having a large surface area that is exposed to oxygen rich water for nitrification(in the same way bio balls do) AND they provide a huge surface area for DEnitrification where the water is oxygen poor(anerobic). This takes the ammonia>nitrite>nitrate a step further and turns nitrate into nitrogen gas which is released to atmosphere. This is why live rock is superior when a low nitrate level is needed and bioballs are superior when heavy processing of ammonia>nitrite are needed.

[blasterman]

Why did they even invent bio balls then if they aren't as space efficient as LR?

 

Because you have money in your wallet, you are likely a male in your 20's that likes to spend money on gadgets, and the concept of selling products is intended to make a marketeer money, not contribute to a healthy tank. Same with that bacteria in a bottle crap.

 

I'm neutral on bio-balls (proximity anoxic effects aside) and wheels, but convinced they provide no benefit to either a reef or fresh tank and are just a gadget that makes somebody profit and something that gets forgotten about and causes problems down the line.

 

A small amount of gravel or substrate in a tank with no rock will provide enough surface area for bacteria to colonize and handle a fish load that's not practical for any tank. This being said, you don't even have to add LR to the equation because the problem is solved. Beginners spend WAY too much time obsessing over the nitrogen cycle anyways. They need to be worrying about bio-load and tank husbandry.

 

Most of these gimmicks originated from the sewage treatment industry where you need rapid reduction of literally tons of ammonia, and quick water turnover is mandatory. In our reef tanks these bacteria are typically starving once they grow to keep up with the bio load. Better said, a solution in search of a problem.

[brandon429]

rarely, I agree blaster. nice call./

 

[neuwave]

Good call blaster. I use neither extra bio balls or rubble cause either can build detritus with the groves. You can see many people have barebottom wih minimal rock and has flourishing tanks packed with sps. So the issue of enough surface area is debateable.

[RMurphy]

So what should I do with the bio ball chamber in my 8 gal. biocube? It's been running for about 6 weeks now and I couldn't figure out why my nitrates were always between 10-20 ppm. After reading this post maybe it's from the bioballs. It's almost too efficient at converting other toxins to nitrate. It would be difficult to diagnose a tank because your always just going to get a high nitrate reading right? If I take the bioballs out, do I just keep that second chamber empty or can I put something else in there. I don't really want to hassle with LRR either. I was thinking about puting a sack of Organic Adsorption Resin in there since my tank is too small for a skimmer. I am very new to this hobby and really am just trying to figure out what's going on.

 

By the way, great site, with a lot of great posters and great "little" tanks.

[ry05coupe]

So what should I do with the bio ball chamber in my 8 gal. biocube? It's been running for about 6 weeks now and I couldn't figure out why my nitrates were always between 10-20 ppm. After reading this post maybe it's from the bioballs. It's almost too efficient at converting other toxins to nitrate. It would be difficult to diagnose a tank because your always just going to get a high nitrate reading right? If I take the bioballs out, do I just keep that second chamber empty or can I put something else in there. I don't really want to hassle with LRR either. I was thinking about puting a sack of Organic Adsorption Resin in there since my tank is too small for a skimmer. I am very new to this hobby and really am just trying to figure out what's going on.

 

By the way, great site, with a lot of great posters and great "little" tanks.

 

Most people just take them out and rely on live rock for biological. With a tank that small it shouldn't be too heavilly stocked anyway. You could also just clean them every week or so.

[Euphyllia]

Chaeto has loads of surface area. A wad where you would put bioballs would provide more surface area than just bioballs IMO.

[ry05coupe]

A wad where you would put bioballs would provide more surface area than just bioballs IMO.

 

I have to disagree with that... I don't even know if nitrifying bacteria would grow on the algae. Anyone?

 

Chaeto is a great thing to have back there though.

[xxbrianxx]

chaeto would be great to have there, but yea I disagree that it'd have more surface area than an equal volume of bio balls.

 

I'm pretty sure chaeto would be a bad surface for growing nitrifying bacteria since it's a very O2 rich area and nitrifying bacteria needs an anaerobic environment to grow. And by nitrifying I mean the type of bacteria that converts nitrate to nitrogen gas. I'm not sure if I'm using the right term though!

[wombat]

Nitrifying = NH3 > NO2 > NO3

Denitrifying = NO3 > N2

 

Terms are off, but you're correct.

[Rocket]

Over the years I've seen many systems set up with or without the bio balls that where awesome - from my understanding bio balls need to be maintained and that's where the problem is. People toss them in a forget about them and at some point the trouble starts. Even if you tossed LR rubble in the back of the tank you would still need to maintain it otherwise you are going to have all kinds of garbage collecting in the back of the tank.

 

I've always suggested that people do not use either LR rubble or bio balls in the back of the tank. There just isn't any need for it since the rock in the display should be more than enough.

 

Could they benefit a tank? Sure - as long as you are going to pull them at regular interval and wash them off as well as cleaning out the compartment they are in. I much rather blow off the rocks in the display with a turkey baster while doing water changes and not have to worry about it.

 

 

/end of discussion.

[xxbrianxx]

I agree with most of what pickle said...but the point of this thread is to show that bio balls are NOT as evil as everyone says they are. Personally it's a little annoying when brand new reefers go around telling others "bio balls are nitrate factories". And when you ask them why? They have no clue. At least understand where that reasoning came from....and plus everything needs maintenance. You can't really say bio balls are bad because they goto crap if you don't maintain them. Everything would go bad if you didn't maintain it. And you could just as easily take a turkey baster to LR rubble or bio balls and you could for liverock.

[wombat]

Silly. Bioball maintenance consists of maybe rinsing them out every few years to shed the thick bacterial growth. The prefilter prevents detritus from collecting. The reason people don't use them in modern reef aquariums is that they do not offer a place for denitrification to occur like live rock does.

 

/end of discussion.

[Seacret]

This topic helped me a lot. When I first had my tank I had no idea that that compartment opened up. Took the bio balls out and now going to make a media chamber. Can't wait for better results.

[Neebles]

Well, since this thread has been resurrected anyway, what about those large biopure ceramic biomedia plates?

[Subsea]

Bioballs are no more of a nitrate factory than substrate.

 

Six months ago, I compared nitrification and denitrification of seven differrent media using liquid ammonia as a nutrient source. Media tested were live rock, rock rubble, bioballs, ceramic rock, filter sponge, oolite sand and Florida Crushed Coral. Ammonia testing and dosing each day maintained 1-8 ppm of ammonia. Test duration was 120 days. The second criteria for test maintained nitrate between 50-150 ppm. When nitrate reached 150 ammonia dosing was discontinued and when it dropped below 50 ppm ammonia dosing was continued.

 

Rock rubble, bioballs and filter sponge processed the most nitrogen in that order.

 

During the four months of this test, the tank with bioballs processed nitrate. Where were the reducing oxygen conditions required to produce denitrification chemistry? Our assumptions on anarobic conditions being required for denitrification chemistry are not correct. Faculative bacteria existing in low oxygen enviroment complete the nitrogen cycle. It is my assumption that these faculative bacteria can exist in close proximity of nitrification bacteria.

Patrick

[farkwar]

Thats plausible and intuitive, subsea.

 

When Ive had anaerobic conditions in my substrate (back in the old days before we/I much), they produced hydrogen sulfide and probably other noxious compounds.

 

It makes sense that a facultative bacteria is responsible for nitrogen gas production.

 

My experimental ATS proved to me that several species of cyano, if red, green, and purple slimes, jellies, snots, and strings represent different species, can thrive in a high flow high oxygen high light and/or low light environment.

 

Im not going to digress to current taxonomy of these species, they are what they are regardless of what we call them(the tree of life changes quickly depending on who says what is what...which branch contains what.). And I have my scope and stain kit still in my amazon cart.

 

I dismiss the bioball slur of nitrate factory; again due to improper use and maintenance. Live rock is far better at trapping detritus than any bioball design, if there is a nitrate factory in your or my reef tank, its live rock and any crap algae growing on it that has evolved to trap detritus.

Efficiently.

Bioballs are obsolete, in my regard, because of other media available now with far greater surface area per volume.

 

Im testing the Cermedia Ceramic balls currently, using upward flow through them, and being the last in line, after all other filters in the sump, before the return pump. They are supposed to have like a quarter acre of surface area per 1.5 inch ball (or something otherwise outrageously a lot). We shall see.

 

Its counterintuitive that the same envirionment that supports bacteria that make hydrogen sulfide, also supports right next to it, bacteria that turn nitrate into nitrogen gas.

[Subsea]

https://www.princeton.edu/nitrogen/publications/pdfs/Ward_1996_Probing.pdf

 

After reading the above 15 page article, I marvel at the complexities of our marine environment.

Patrick.

 

Thiospharea pantotroopha are one faculative bacteria that perform nitrification and denitrification simultaneously.

 

In the conclusion section, the author says "Our vision of denitrification has been expanded to include denitrification under fully aerobic conditions".

[farkwar]

If you have a problem with detritus turning into Nitrate, develop the mechanisms, or perform the maintenance to remove detritus in the first or second place.

 

A trick I use, is a 1/2" tubing. Put a grill on the one end, the kind that come with the MJ style power heads. Tie strap a 100 micron filter sock to the other end.

 

Put the sock end into your sump, get the siphon going, and just baste the junk into the grilled end of your suction tubing.

 

Throw the dirty sock into the wash with your other drain filter socks, when you're done.

 

I cant really say how much nutrient is in all that stuff after passing through the gut of a fish, then a palyathoa, then a hermit crab, then a snail, then a stomatella, then bacteria. Its probally just a bunch of inert carbon by then; but I dont like it in there anyway.