Peroxide saves my Tank! With pics to Prove It!

[hwk7072]

Ah, the Zoas, forgot about them. They're finicky, and attract this stuff into their nooks and crannies a bit more than the others. So I'll try the bath with one or two and see how that goes.

[jedimasterben]

Right, but I assume the folks who make this stuff know the differences among species of dinos. Would be kind of silly to sell a product that kills the coral with the pest. "Take this before a flight and you won't get a cold, but you'll be dead, so no refund. Ha ha!"

Ask them for their data on which species of dinoflagellate it has been tested on both in vitro and in aquaria.

[hwk7072]

Ask them for their data on which species of dinoflagellate it has been tested on both in vitro and in aquaria.

You seem to be holding back on us re either experience or empirical data that fauna Marin Dino-x kills corals,presumably because they take in plague Dino's in much the same way they take in beneficial bacteria. If you have data, please share as it seems several of us are going through it now. That would allow me to go to FM and ask them about the studies and get their take on it. If it's merely anecdotal, friends of friends, even that would be helpful. Thanks

[brandon429]

took a pic of my lfs display tank

 

topically the mild invasion looks just like yours, presents within similar tank details, and has golden hue characters along with common reds, just a neat comparison.

 

https://imageshack.com/i/f0SlVawnj

 

your tank can be saved 100% we just need experimental time. hwk what I've seen as an undisclosed factor in fighting both cyano and dinos in online threads is the mutual benefit and support colonial organisms get by existing in a colony, a mass.

 

We must allow ramp up and natural ramp down times for any colonial invade that wa allowed to spread

 

some of the reported quick dino cures online were working within variables perhaps another tank didnt have, so I've learned to wait on evals for a few weeks of true decisive war then check off the list.

 

The basis of our thread is act on the first evidence by siphon removal so that no mass builds, using any method that gets the ends (and methods vary in their sustain times per tank)

 

then we experiment with dosers, cheats, burns et al to see what earns you the least growback or in the case of obligate hitchhikers a permanent kill.

 

Until we find your cure which I think it's coming soon from a narrowed list of actions (didn't come 60 pages to get kicked by a low level sandbed invasion) I think relying on the basics of simple siphon removal and giving ourselves a fair evaluation timeframe now that we've started a plan will fix you.

 

if these are dinos they are obligate hitchhikers when we patiently zap them somehow they cant get back in.

 

if this is a cyano strain those are ubiquitous/constantly traversing the earth and its waterways and any fuel left deep in these two sandbeds recently can drag out your fix time and even allow them to resurge even after the initial cure.

 

I think a patient sustained attack on target mass and fuel sources is key. whether or not its a long term battle imo rests in the difference between obligate or nonobligate hitchhikers.

[jedimasterben]

You seem to be holding back on us re either experience or empirical data that fauna Marin Dino-x kills corals,presumably because they take in plague Dino's in much the same way they take in beneficial bacteria. If you have data, please share as it seems several of us are going through it now. That would allow me to go to FM and ask them about the studies and get their take on it. If it's merely anecdotal, friends of friends, even that would be helpful. Thanks

Toxic dinoflagellates in aquaria come from several genus - including Amphidinium, which are symbiotic with corals. If FM's product works on dinoflagellates, it won't be specific on which it targets, and it would kill the zooxanthellae in corals. But it doesn't, which means it doesn't work on the toxic dinos, either.

[hwk7072]

Interesting. I'll ask them and see if they respond. Thanks

[jedimasterben]

I'm extremely skeptical about any miracle additive or product in this hobby as it is, and I'm especially skeptical about anything dealing with dinoflagellates, mostly because they're all snake oil

[hwk7072]

Well, I figure that I–make that the corals–will die trying. (Cue the WE-CAN-DO-THIS music). "It's either toss the tank and everything in it, or do what we humanly and chemically can to SAVE THOSE CORALS. Those acans didn't choose to be in there. The zoas would rather be in Phuket! Together, fellow reefers, we can save this tank! Anybody with me? Give me a +1! Now let's go dose!" (music out).

 

So I just dosed the first round of Dino-X, and I'll report the results.

 

Here is a video of day one of the dose:

 

Note: After I removed all of the rocks and mixed up the sand bed and siphoned several times a couple weeks ago, resulting in perhaps a 120% water change, I dosed with Microbacter7. I had what looked like a pristine tank. The offending organism returned after only a day. I kept dosing with MB7. But instead of the stalactites with bubbles on the end, it's now more of a copper-colored hair algae.

 

Everything is really ugly and placed randomly now as I was just getting things back in the tank after the near tear-down. Video at about 14k.

[hwk7072]

I think I'll move this to a new thread on Dino-X, sans the drama, in case anyone is interested.

[brandon429]

Over at our friends Reef2Reef, some gelidium, got the zap and the prediction. took a little longer this time but darn close!

http://reef2reef.com/threads/id-request-red-plants-and-spikey-plant.205051/

[brandon429]

how we beat green hair algae with a delicate anemone in tow;

 

http://reef2reef.com/threads/peroxide-use-for-killing-green-hair-algae.209144/

[DurocShark]

Is this where we share our H2O2 experiences?

 

I had 2 patches of nasty hair algae. One on a small zoa rock, the other on a larger piece of my live. I dipped both with a 1:2 solution of peroxide to tank water for 5 minutes. The large rock had an orange monti I wasn't able to get loose, it had attached itself pretty tightly.

 

The dip did the trick! I did regret the losses of some pods and bristle worms, but it was worth it. The only bad thing that happened was the monti bleached. It didn't die, it's still growing. It's just much paler.

Before:

 

 

After:

 

(This one was immediately after placing back in the tank.)

 

 

 

 

 

Thought I'd update....

That zoa frag with the little leather coral is still algae free and growing like mad. The leather that popped after the dip is now around 3" tall. I need to take new pics, but my house is in disarray and I have stacks of boxes everywhere including in front of the tank. I've moved the contents of that tank to my 70 and no bryopsis has returned.

[brandon429]

Excellent update. The most important updates are regrowth/sustainment updates pro and con so we can further watch for patterns thanks for posting ~

[brandon429]

check out this overdose thread

appears to be a full tank dosing run against dinos

 

this is among the larger 3% ods I've seen, a 1:1 ratio! (1 ml peroxide 3% to 10 gallons is the norm we see)

 

this is in Randy Holmes Farleys active Chem forum:

http://reef2reef.com/threads/what-is-the-half-life-of-hydrogen-peroxide.211134/#post-2416965

 

there is a real gem hidden in here a video review where Justin Credabel is speaking about peroxide

 

 

 

 

[Adrnalnrsh]

I'm extremely skeptical about any miracle additive or product in this hobby as it is, and I'm especially skeptical about anything dealing with dinoflagellates, mostly because they're all snake oil

 

 

Look at all our post in the Dinoflagellates thread on Reef Central and note Cal Stirs finding. By implementing Copepods (live) and Green PhytoPlankton (live) I was able to wipe out dinos almost over night (roughly 98% of them).

 

I also had a Cyano issue - tank was severally imbalanced.

[brandon429]

An actual predator for the dinos, yes Id believe that. all communities in the ocean have a balancer (we tend to have missing in the dino infested tanks)

 

where peroxide is a direct kill that oxidizes everything and capitalizes on those with the least resistance complement, a targeting of copepods if you can find the type that will seek out our intended targets is really appealing.

 

 

Now the test, which is the test for all anti invasion claims

 

work that on anothers dino tank and a few more, compile them in -one thread- so we can see trends, and you'll break new ground on this tank scourge/

 

most of the threads are a mix of things that worked and didnt work, with dinoXal taking the lead currently IMO among additives that directly target. Id like to see predating copepods set off as a separate thread for a few tanks to run.

[jedimasterben]

Look at all our post in the Dinoflagellates thread on Reef Central and note Cal Stirs finding. By implementing Copepods (live) and Green PhytoPlankton (live) I was able to wipe out dinos almost over night (roughly 98% of them).

 

I also had a Cyano issue - tank was severally imbalanced.

You got a microscope? It reveals all

[Adrnalnrsh]

I do, and its going to help ID what type of Dino's someone has which is the first step.

 

Currently I am dealing with a huge Diatom bloom.

[brandon429]

I am very happy about this fix attempt even though a giant tank allowed to 100% coverage is no one off shot

 

http://reef2reef.com/threads/sick-of-gha-going-to-start-dosing-perxoide.212043/page-3

 

 

full on tank zeovit sps tank with in tank full treatments

 

zeovit tanks are especially dangerous to whole tank dosing of peroxide, they run high on free radical stress anyway by having ultra clear water, bright lighting, and alk that is often on the upper edge of ok. one stressor added incorrectly can easily, readily, make an RTN cascade for these tanks.

 

 

 

I have linked nano-reef.com threads from the picos forum to reef2reef and vice versa, its pretty lucky to frequent boards that practice open information sharing and pure science flow, not all sites are like that and it drives the hobby forward to be that way. The pictures show his initial kill and he mentions grow back problems, that the initial treatment didn't hold enough to cure it, so contrast the treatment method used against ones we show wiping all the algae out:

 

In tank dosing vs out of tank spot treatments

people will not by and large do the access work to make up for on-purpose algae mass production. Doing a single test rock shows how the algae will respond before all the tank is done. People by and large want to dose the water and get the same effects as those who hit algae outside of water, on week 1 of an algae issue, and that's a high bar to meet for heavily overgrown tanks.

 

Timing

Peroxide is expected to perform after every legit method known failed, months went by, algae is 100% set in, and it carries an expectation from many that a diluted tank run safe enough for all sps is still concentrated enough to kill the hair algae. People would react harsher to coral kill vs algae nonkill, so the doses follow the safer path that requires more work. Consider a weekend of external treatments as a boost to any peroxide attempt.

 

Changes to stasis made during the suppression period

We see the tank leaving all factors in place and changing none during the interim initial kill, makes sense that grow back has some extra fuel. The dying masses of algae in the system are a retention matrix for detritus, algae fuel, vs clean rock that is deliberately made free of tangles and waste retained. You should be able to put your coralline covered live rock into a bowl of water, swish it, and the water remain clean. If you take one of these rocks as is and submerge/shake it, clouds of detritus and plant parts will cast everywhere and that's your fuel source here, this tank is opting into total in-tank digestion of all wastes with no boosts of export to make up for this change we caused, the reasons for the grow back are clear, and optional in my opinion and it's all relative to work we are willing to see as the cost of delay.

 

As one of many details to adjust on a tank this size and $$, the option exists to quit using ornamental fish and bioload for a while until balance is regained. If a fish is in that system, I vote tang or lawnmower blenny for obvious reasons, don't have non contributing fish contributing waste in that system, it's already expected to internally process all waste without extra export work being involved. Any source of organic waste needed to be eliminated long ago, that's attained when I can stick my arm in that reef, pick up and swoosh something, and no waste cloud emanates. Until then, every indicator is for retreats.

[moklevat]

I'll put this here in the peroxide thread instead of a bryopsis thread because I want to document the treatment, and would love input.

 

My very new 20L had a little lawn of what I thought was GHA. I would routinely scrub it with a toothbrush during water changes (8 gal twice a week) and it seemed to be holding steady. In the past two weeks, the algae has taken off in length and revealed itself (to my untrained eye) as bryopsis. It's on nearly all the rock to varying degrees, and in the sand in two places.

 

 

 

 

My plan is to remove the rock detach my handful of glued corals (1 tiny sarcophyton, 6 zoas, 6 R. yumas, 2 R. florida) and pour H2O2 on the heavies areas and/or dip each and every rock on the tank (8 pieces) in 50/50 3% H2O2 / clean salt water for 2 minutes, rinse the rock in clean salt water, and then replace it followed by an 8 gallon water change. I will also scoop out the two areas of sand where growth is. As much surface area as is involved, I thought that draining and spot treating would put too much H2O2 in the tanks.

 

I overfeed the tank for sure, and will scale back. I've reduced the photo period and intensity (from 11 hours at 60%/60% (blue/white) to 9 hours at 50%/40%.

 

I welcome thoughts. Confirmation that it's bryopsis? Am I overreacting?

[brandon429]

we all tend to use monikers to name plants and prob are wrong 96% of the time from a botanists point of view lol

 

but generally we do call that bryopsis because of its fronds vs the single stalks grouped together as brushy green hair algae, either way its as good as zapped. your plan and the safety hedges are just fine but id tweak it like this

 

before any major measure just lift out a rock and use a dropper to put peroxide on one tuft area, removing nothing, no big start. merely drip it on the algae in between the corals safely. most corals are not harmed by a spill. leave that rock in the air for 2 mins cooking then simply rinse off, leave it in place and put it back in to watch it die.

 

if that spot does not die in 48 hours then you have a very strong resistant strain and we just saved you hours of work w no outcome. if it does die, do the rest I don't see any reason you have to dislodge corals off a rock, just lift it all out of the tank and you are right, scoop the clump of sand simply out don't treat the tank just the algae. I predict easy fix here, and your growback ranges we will have no trouble clearing the initial growth for you to experiment with preventers.

 

nice job on the early start, the single tenet of the entire 60 pages is act now not later don't risk isn't worth it. you are starting early enough.

 

With no lysmata cleaners your tank looks good to go, no sensitives I can see

[moklevat]

we all tend to use monikers to name plants and prob are wrong 96% of the time from a botanists point of view lol

 

but generally we do call that bryopsis because of its fronds vs the single stalks grouped together as brushy green hair algae, either way its as good as zapped. your plan and the safety hedges are just fine but id tweak it like this

 

before any major measure just lift out a rock and use a dropper to put peroxide on one tuft area, removing nothing, no big start. merely drip it on the algae in between the corals safely. most corals are not harmed by a spill. leave that rock in the air for 2 mins cooking then simply rinse off, leave it in place and put it back in to watch it die.

 

if that spot does not die in 48 hours then you have a very strong resistant strain and we just saved you hours of work w no outcome. if it does die, do the rest I don't see any reason you have to dislodge corals off a rock, just lift it all out of the tank and you are right, scoop the clump of sand simply out don't treat the tank just the algae. I predict easy fix here, and your growback ranges we will have no trouble clearing the initial growth for you to experiment with preventers.

 

nice job on the early start, the single tenet of the entire 60 pages is act now not later don't risk isn't worth it. you are starting early enough.

 

With no lysmata cleaners your tank looks good to go, no sensitives I can see

 

The test patch worked well within 24 hours. I went ahead and treated all the affected rock with 3% h2o2 and let it sit for 2 minutes (or a bit more). I couldn't resist a little toothbrushing of the algae while doing the rinse (90%+ was removed after this). After replacing the rock, I siphoned the sand where I could see growth and did a 16L water change. I'll be back with pictures as things develop.

 

This was the before shot of one of the thickest patches from yesterday:

 

 

Here's the closeup of the same section of rock 3 hours after treating (relocated sarcophyton frag).

 

[brandon429]

perfect

after pics are the contagious aspect of this thread thanks tons

 

the toothbrushing is fine now, we just wanted to see how the plant matrix would respond and it usually responds by keeling over lol

 

minor regrowth prediction:

 

these holdfasts types for sure might spring back up, its the adaptation that feeds grazers in the wild, in waters more pristinely low of nutrients than we'll attain using any combo sustained, it simply does not mean the process didn't work. my own algae took a few rounds and then hasn't been back in 3-4 yrs now and I only retreated a few times, using higher % peroxide really helps to get at those holdfasts but 3% is where we do the bulk of work, safer, and it will have a bit more. Nothing beats the current method.

 

takeaways for other pre-emerging bryopsis readers:

 

we dumped nothing in the tank. even if they chose Tech M as the external treatment, same if not better outcome than peroxide for this family of invaders. the key was access, we didn't treat the water we treated the offender.

 

any amount of work it takes to access your rocks in the air is the price for having let anything set in, don't take the easy route of spiking your magnesium all over your corals and clean up crew, they didn't offend. Do the access work it takes to kill this target and you'll head off years of headaches.

 

Your tank is now immune to any invader that is benthic and non motile (rules out dinos, heh)

 

there is not one type of algae that will get past what we just did, consider the legions of online tanks lost to:

 

gelidium

invasive macro

brush algae

valonia

green hair algae

 

 

 

none of them will get past what we just did if acted early, but keep an eye out for those dinos be sure and rinse off/disinfect those frags well as you build up the system.

 

*but what about nutrient controls, GFO and algal turf scrubbers are shown to reduce these above*

 

my answer is those are fine preventers, removers for some, and go to town with them. we aren't exclusive. At Reef2Reef im doing two giant sps tanks via pm right now that use upflow scrubbers, and we are just catching up the display tank so they don't have to wait 4 mos. we aren't dosing the water, so its not hurting anyones ATS or refugium

 

[moklevat]

Here is the FTS 23 hours after treatment:

 

[brandon429]

shocking intercept of five mos battle what an example of before/after pics

 

the growback I've seen to be simply proportionate to delay of action time, a new equation I'm proposing we test.

 

You acted in my opinion within the first 20% or less coverage and holdfast depth group, against a constant shown here usually upwards of waiting till 50% or better

 

so growback predictions are low, a few targeted runs as dots and then it stops or goes to as good as any other system as this obligate hitchhiker ends its DNA presence in your tank. A direct reducer of retreatments are higher percentage peroxide mixes and extended contact time past two minutes, for sure those two reduce grow back. The only thing I use is 35% very carefully and nothing gets past, ever, years ago. Thanks much for posting those