Peroxide saves my Tank! With pics to Prove It!

[jedimasterben]

For you, brandon.

 

[brandon429]

sick! Ill try to finish watching it at work before I leave thanks for loading

 

 

the motility dropped 100% all stillness

 

Interesting no fizz, indicating sample water free of catalase pos bacteria and zero organics, not a bubble one? Were they in distilled water? The most amazing part is the zero bubbling even when magnified 100x, zero organic water

 

I'm taking it this was not a dropper sample from a live tank, but some dinos transferred into pure water that has me head scratching

 

I'd be curious to see 24 hrs post follow up and to know the methods used to develop this slide above

 

Was the peroxide input halfway through or from the beginning?

Not having a single micro bubble from such powerful oxidation going on in the surrounding fluid is the strangest thing

 

If is is your vid, we'd also like to see them swimming in super high alk water if possible, or from a sample that sat in blackout for days but under aeration. It would be neat to see what action causes lysis in them

[jedimasterben]

the motility dropped 100% all stillness

They were killed upon contact.

 

Interesting no fizz, indicating sample water free of catalase pos bacteria and zero organics, not a bubble one? Were they in distilled water? The most amazing part is the zero bubbling even when magnified 100x, zero organic water

That is three drops of my tank's water, one drop of peroxide.

 

I'm taking it this was not a dropper sample from a live tank, but some dinos transferred into pure water that has me head scratching

If I had transferred them into freshwater they would have burst and been killed, but I didn't think you'd be interested in that lol

 

I'd be curious to see 24 hrs post follow up and to know the methods used to develop this slide above

They're dead, and in addition those three drops of water would evaporate within an hour or so, so it's not really viable.

 

Was the peroxide input halfway through or from the beginning?

Not having a single micro bubble from such powerful oxidation going on in the surrounding fluid is the strangest thing

Peroxide was put in about halfway.

 

If is is your vid, we'd also like to see them swimming in super high alk water if possible, or from a sample that sat in blackout for days but under aeration. It would be neat to see what action causes lysis in them

This was only a low change in salinity (25%), so from 36ppt down to 27, so just barely enough to kill them, but doesn't seem enough to cause them to burst. I'm pretty sure it is not the peroxide that killed them directly, but the salinity change.

[Reef Miser]

Awesome post!!!! I would think a simple experiment to verify it was salinity changes causing cell death would be to simply substitute FW for H2O2.

[jedimasterben]

Awesome post!!!! I would think a simple experiment to verify it was salinity changes causing cell death would be to simply substitute FW for H2O2.

This is already a known.

[brandon429]

still a great vid

 

laser clarity

 

thats good gear man.

 

There is a sedation effect on some species involving peroxide, im seeing it as predictable as clockwork Ill post up a pic of it real quick. I thought it might be occuring here, where they still but come back in a few hours. just wondering if that was the case...if they died and started to decompose that was something the short vid didnt show.

 

coral banded shrimps do it in marine tanks, and so far neocaridina do it for fw species...as long as the peroxide contact wasnt instantly lethal, they lay there bubbled for quite a while actually then fully rebound in a few hours. it literally looks like sedation, immense pain lol I dunno hard to tell by the consistent look on their faces but interestingly its not lethal.

 

 

was curious if it happened here.

 

my coral banded shrimp used to get baths of 35% runoff back when I was trying to beat gelidium algae, quite viciously from certain rock treatments back when all this craziness started. I didnt mean to dose the chap, thought he was elsewhere but on 20 occasions I looked down after dripping more than the usual 35% (knowing a big wc was coming up I didnt care) and he was literally bathed in it, bubbled all over like a mummy. was just sure that would get him, then next day back to normal after lying still for 3 hours lol. time and time again

 

the lysmata species as we know would never tolerate that, there's something heritable in various species we are seeing as a repeatable pattern which is fascinating.

 

here it is on a poor little yellow neo fw shrimp

 

I thought he was in the back of the tank, but nope, he's tucked right on top of the substrate where Im spraying 3% to kill some algae. directly on him, plus he sat cooking in it, in a drained tank, for about 10 mins as my drained treatments usually go

https://imageshack.com/i/f07nqwwYj

upon refill I was like daaaaaaang it I didnt see him, surely toast. didnt move all afternoon, then bam by this morning foraging as normal.

 

Peroxiders are making very interesting notations about metabolic differences among shrimp species, someones future research paper will show drastic heritability traits involving various enzymes that process free radical issues within cells, im hoping heh.

[PorkchopExpress]

so peroxide must have been what killed my hawaiian harlequin shrimp...all along i thought it was the ultra algae x

[brandon429]

sure thats possible, we've no data on harlequins across like 5000 posts Id suspect. if any shrimp keels over thats not on our list of tolerants Id believe it in a sec

[Reef Miser]

This is already a known.

I didn't mean put the algae in freshwater. I meant a 3 drops of SW to 1 drop of FW. I wouldn't think that would kill them. But, maybe you have done that.

 

You don't need oxidation to be aggressive enough to cause apoptosis. Denaturing membrane proteins via oxidation could be more than enough to cause necrosis.

[brandon429]

And it had been shown in some cool slide pics for algal cells somewhere here or there, cells bursting and all fragmented after just a brief exposure, would have been neat if motile animals did the same but it looks like a slow degredation type comparatively

[PorkchopExpress]

I just wanted to leave an update - I've had 4 hour photoperiods of just blue light for the past 3 days and so far no signs of dinos. No signs of any algae actually but that was to be expected. I wasn't able to complete more than 4 full days of lights out because my sps were getting way too stressed. I've actually lost 4 already to STN/RTN just since I started the blackouts but that could have also been due to my alk swing as well as all the other stress I caused them getting to this point. I'm just lucky some are still alive with all the peroxide dosing and other stuff I've done in the past 3 months.

 

I'm going to continue very slowly ramping up intensity and light cycle with just blue lights for 2 weeks. I'm still very afraid that once I turn the whites on, dinos will come back. I'm preparing myself for the worst. I'm also still covering the tank at all times when my blues are not on so the tank is pitch black except for the 4 hour photoperiod at the end of each day when I get home.

[Cramsmith]

Has anyone dipped green palau nephthea with peroxide? Is there a list of corals that are safe to dip?

[brandon429]

We currently only have a list of reported sensitives which are Xenia, anemones and cleaner shrimp. Across all peroxide threads I recall zero neptheas being dipped

 

But again we are at the question of why a whole dip

 

Algae tends to pool around the base not on the actual flesh, so I'm thinking we can forego the dip and do a spot treat ? Can you post pics of the problem

[PorkchopExpress]

I guess an update is in order:

 

The first 5 day lights out worked for about 2 weeks...then they came back albeit slowly. I did another 3 day and this time they came back in about 2 days and much stronger this time, bringing with it what appeared to be cyano because it was causing clumps in the sand. I've had cyano before and the consistency appeared like this.

 

So I took the plunge and purchased an oversized 55w pond UV sterilizer. This thing is huge. I'm using an old MJ1200 pump to push the water down the 3/4" ID tubing into the sterilizer than back up about 5 feet into the tank. I know this is below the max flow for level 2 sterilization - i think that number was around 350-400gph. The MJ1200 does 300 but if you take into account the fact that it also has to travel back up about 5 feet it's probably much less that. It's been running for about 2 weeks now and so far so good. I see strings in the usual suspect places but no bubbles. Lights are at full brightness and cycle. No blooms of anything and glass is fairly clean. So so far so good.

 

PS - once getting the UV I've stopped the peroxide. I just don't feel that, with my strain of dinos, the peroxide ever did much at all. UV seems to be keeping them at bay which is perfectly fine with me. I don't care if I ever truly get rid of them, I just don't want them blooming and thriving. A string here and there doesn't bother me...anymore...

[Cramsmith]

We currently only have a list of reported sensitives which are Xenia, anemones and cleaner shrimp. Across all peroxide threads I recall zero neptheas being dipped

 

But again we are at the question of why a whole dip

 

Algae tends to pool around the base not on the actual flesh, so I'm thinking we can forego the dip and do a spot treat ? Can you post pics of the problem

 

So I will do my best to take pics tonight. What it is, is the brown algae what was on the back wall of the 14 g BC has started to attach to the nephthea, I have been trying to turkey baste it off but no luck The nephthea is not too happy it does not close at night or when dusted nor does it fully extend. So I thought to dip it or possibly treat the whole tank.

 

I will post more when I get home.

[Cramsmith]

Hi here are the pics of the Nephthea.

 

tank info:

14g BC

InTank media basket with chaeto and chemipure elite

 

Water params (12/17)

Salinity: 1.025

Temp: 80

NO3-: 1.5 ppm

PO4: 0.04 ppm

Mg: 1360 ppm

Ca2+: 470 ppm

Alk: 7.6 dkh

(Alk: 8.5 dkh 12/18, dosed tank last night)

 

 

[brandon429]

What a great challenge thank you for posting that pic

 

 

Glad we can brainstorm before the dose I did find a post in the depths of the reefcentral peroxide thread that said a Capnella closed up for a long time after a spot treatment

 

I notice from the excellent pic no eutrophication anywhere in the tank

 

No bad algae or cyano or dinos elsewhere, clean, just on the coral

 

Initial brainstorm is perhaps this is a tunic shedding phase, something common in soft corals like these and toadstools etc and a mild cyano is colonizing the cuticle layer as a phase. I'd go for directed water pulse test removal before using peroxide.

 

I have used simple repeated sustained removal to destroy a biomass more often than I used a nice cheat chem. Can this layer be blown off or does it have a grip in the coral? Glad we could brainstorm before an application what a unique challenge. Dormancy phases during tunic shedding can go a seemingly long time

[Cramsmith]

Thanks for the reply. I have tried daily and repeatedly to use the turkey baster to wash off the algae but no luck. I have also redirected the powerhead to increase flow in its area. I also went as far as to use a soft tooth brush to try and brush some off last night , it retracted a bit but seemed okay. Will have to check it again tonight when I get home.

 

[Cramsmith]

So it turns out the Nephthea was indeed shedding and I guess coating it was shedding was capturing the algae that was being scraped off the back wall and glass. so it is now clean and clear.

 

Phew!

 

thanks all Merry Christmas

[Matthewdvm]

I'm slowly making my way through this whole thread (currently about 1/4 of the way through), but wanted to post my experiences. Totally new to the Salt Water world, but have a lot of experience with FW tanks. I got a used Fluval Edge 6g before Christmas, set it up to cycle, and sat back and watched what happened. I used LR that I sourced from 2 different craigslist postings (I had a bunch from the first sale, but loved the coraline algae on the 2nd batch, so couldn't say no). As the tank cycled, algae began to grow. The general consensus that I got both on nano-reef and at the LFS was that as the cycle completed, the algae would use up the nutrients and die back. But it didn't seem to be the case - it just kept growing and growing. Then as I read more about reef tanks in general, I kept seeing people complaining about Bryopsis. I googled it, and realized that was what I had growing ever more vigorously in my tank. I found this thread, and figured I would give it a shot. I had 3 rocks affected. 2 were small pieces, one was one of my larger pieces of LR (it had Bryopsis on about 1/3 of it). I pulled the smaller 2 pieces out of the tank, removed the majority of the fronds manually, then dribbled undiluted H2O2 on top to the affected areas. I repeated the peroxide dribble 3 times in the course of 5 minutes, then rinsed in salt water. Those rocks were not important to my 'scaping, so I have temporarily removed them from water, and am considering treating them every couple of days with H2O2 in a similar manner to try to eradicate it from the smaller rocks.

 

Pleased with how the treatment of the small rocks had gone, I removed the larger base rock, and did similar, though I used a toothbrush from the mechanical removal, and was more aggressive with the 3 washes of H2O2 on the target areas. Then I rinsed it off 3 times with salt water and popped it back in the tank, after siphoning the sand and removing any stray Bryopsis that I had growing in the sand. I filled the tank back up, adjusting the 'scape a bit to make it more to my liking and left it over night. Today I am planning on doing another 50% water change. Then I think it will be time to treat myself to a small clean-up crew and maybe my first coral!!!!

 

Anyway, thanks to everyone (esp Brandon and Reef Miser) for all the experiments you did on your tanks to test H2O2 as a algaecide! Next step is to try it for my planted FW tank!!!

 

Here's the progression of the algae:

 

New Year's Eve, the brain coral rock and the LR on the left are getting a nice 'fro of green algae:

http://s1247.photobucket.com/user/Matthewdvm/media/DSC07014.jpg.html'>

 

Yesterday morning (January 6th), the Bryopsis is OUT OF CONTROL (sorry for the crappy cell phone pic):

http://s1247.photobucket.com/user/Matthewdvm/media/IMG_2340-2.jpg.html'>

 

This morning (January 7th) after the battle (with a slightly different 'scape):

http://s1247.photobucket.com/user/Matthewdvm/media/DSC_6127.jpg.html'>

[Matthewdvm]

Here's what the Bryopsis looks like 2 days after the peroxide treatment:

 

http://s1247.photobucket.com/user/Matthewdvm/media/DSC_6171.jpg.html'>

[seabass]

Here's what the Bryopsis looks like 2 days after the peroxide treatment

Awesome! You'll need follow up treatments or it will come back.

[brandon429]

And even more interesting, there's a finite scale for that. one would think it would be perpetual, but its not panning out that way. turns out that with an aggressive biocidal approach early on, you can win wo nutrient controls

 

 

 

it is true you'll need to retreat any recurrence, and that w lessen not persist. id actually assist the die off here w an underwater toothbrushing and good water change, or a rock removal external rinse assist.

 

The greatest strength here is the accessibility of the rock structure, compared to the typical "I can't get to it but underwater" options.

[brandon429]

have enjoyed pms with porkchop express. He had the bad strain of dinos based on pervasiveness in my opinion, we have attained control of biomass such that a loss is either stalled or averted time will tell

 

it is my opinion that grossly oversized uv is a tool often unused. much better than correctly sized uv. PE is also running phosphate controls as the online article from Randy Holmes Farley is one of our few formal references on the matter and p04 attack was shown justified there.

 

 

 

all dino fixes are 20% likely to happen for someone else, I hope we get a year after update for porkchop express its important. this was my most fun peroxide tank. non peroxide

[PorkchopExpress]

Actually water changes, for me, didn't really seem to have much of an effect. When I would do a water change, I would definitely see a LOT of dinos free floating in the water but the amount didn't seem to exponentially grow just because of the water change. HOWEVER, that could be because I was very diligent in siphoning out whatever dinos I saw. So maybe they did exponentially bloom but I never saw it because I was constantly manually removing as much as I could find. Let's say I was spending anywhere from 2 to 3 hours, per day, on just siphoning the little bastards out.

 

Peroxide didn't seem to have any effect for me either. Actually no other remedy did, and I believe I tried them ALL except the algae turf scrubber and macroalgae. The ONLY thing that put a dent in them were 3+ days of blackouts and now the UV Sterilizer. The only thing, thus far, that has either eliminated them or is keeping them from blooming is the UV. I have not done a blackout since getting the UV. Before the UV, I did a 2 day blackout.

 

I'm still not 100% convinced they are gone because I do not have a microscope. So I can't say with 100% certainty that I'm cured only that the tank looks like it's dino free. One good sign that I am dino free is the presence of new algae. I have patches of gha growing now in various places and it seems I might have some diatoms on the sand in shaded areas under rocks. To me that is good news as they pose clear and direct competition to dinos. When I had dinos, I just had dinos and no other algae. Also, at this point, I'm not seeing trapped bubbles in my shallow sand bed anymore. Before I had a ton of bubbles in my DSB when I had dinos. I took more than half the sand out along with the 2 day blackout and UV. Now no bubbles at all.

 

So overall I have good signs that dinos are gone but I can only say I'm totally cured if I decide to turn the UV offline and they don't show up again or if I don't see them for 6 months to a year. But I can say one thing - the UV definitely helped. That, by far, has been the best remedy.