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Peroxide saves my Tank! With pics to Prove It!


Reef Miser

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jedimasterben

I mentioned this before in Polarcollision's 24g thread - usually a treatment occurs with a number of other better husbandry techniques.

Typically the opposite happens - better husbandry and a 'cleaner' system are usually more favorable to dinoflagellates, especially in systems where water changes are performed, there is something about newly mixed water that makes most species go mental.

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I debate that as well. I think its the upwelling of nutrients caused by adding a fresh wc that is actually not very thorough. see, we just differ on main points :)

 

guy#1

Hey, I mixed up the cleanest water ever, dumped it in and got dino bloom all over again, just had it under control it seemed

 

guy2

it was the clean water.

 

guy3

dude you toilet swished a tank of organics. lucky you didnt get some cyano to boot. come on over to this thread _________we have a decent success rate on your issue. What if you are one of those who ends up happy, we have good track record for safe trying

 

unless you have a microscope and can id every cell you bring into a new tank, best to assume readers that you will need an actual plan for dinos and not a start over plan. get to innovating. post up stuff that works for you, dont give up thats for sure. At least its not neomeris. if you get neo then its all bad from there.

 

:)

B

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PorkchopExpress

I'm starting my 10 day blackout today in hopes of them disappearing even for a few months. I don't care anymore if they never leave the system, I just need a break and some time to actually enjoy the hobby again instead of constantly siphoning these things out. I did my absolute best to siphon, not blow into the water column, every dino strand i could see with my eyes. I bought a digital pH pen and am trying my best to keep pH between 8.3 - 8.4 however, without a doser that's impossible. I dosed the peroxide last night and again this morning before i left for work. I don't think the Algae X worked at all so I'm going to stop that completely as I feel that is what killed my Hawaiian harlequin shrimp as well as 2 fish. Just dosing peroxide has shown no signs of death in my livestock, it was only when dosing the Ultra Algae X that things started to die.

 

I feel like if I'm going to do this, I should go all the way and do 10 complete lights out with turning on lights only to feed the fish every 3 days. I have no idea how my SPS are going to react to this. 3 days they seem unfazed but I have no idea about 10 days. :(

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jedimasterben

The most I've done is 7 days, along with approximately 6mL 3% peroxide per gallon of water, and it only had an effect for around two weeks.

 

One day, though, they went away and did not resurface until a few months down the road. Just when I was getting used to them being gone :lol:

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PorkchopExpress

Were you able to check your parameters during those few months? And then right before the bloom? Something must have set them off again. Any other algaes during those few months that out competed them?

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jedimasterben

Nope, didn't bother. They don't care about anything we 'typically' test for (Cal/alk/mag/N/P).

 

Had some cyanobacteria that showed up just before the next small bloom, but I also have an algae scrubber that is running now, and they're blooming despite it. I don't think that 'bloom' is really the right word for it, though, as they've got very selective places they're growing (two gorgonians and my colonial hydroids), nothing truly like I've had in the past.

 

2013-12-027.jpg

 

2013_02_16__20_21_07.jpg

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PorkchopExpress

I'm finding the same thing. They grow the most in selective places in mine as well:

 

1) Birdsnest that I bleached. They grow on the tips and won't allow it to heal.

2) Brain coral with exposed skeleton. They really love attacking this guy at the tips of skeleton that protrude out of the skin.

3) A finger leather coral. Not sure about this one, the leather coral is perfectly fine and seems happy. Perhaps it's the molted skin the dinos like to consume?

4) Anthelia and blue cyphastrea. Seems to really love agitating these 2 colonies. So much so that they no longer really fully open up. It's a shame, they were the only colonies that flowed in my tank.

5) The usual places - around the power heads and around frag racks. A little on the rocks but not much. Some on the sand.

 

So it definitely seems in my tank that they love LPS. They don't seem to attach to healthy SPS much except for injured ones and they don't seem to really attach to my glass either.

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out of all the dino pics on these threads, that pic Ben of your low lying infestation is unique

 

I remember once thinking it looked more like a persistent nitrogen fixing cyano

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Ben I never saw for your threads where you were using grossly oversized UV

 

Im sure there are about to be reasons listed to justify nonuse, but coming from that level of noncompliance invader I dont see much room in your tank for not trying

 

oversized uv is a secret weapon

 

In the annals of decades long documented fw and planted tank invader fixes, UV is consistent. the debate isn't if they clear when sized correctly (which means out of the ballpark oversized) its if what they clear from reef tanks is significant.

 

Since you have a persistent issue, that would trump fine detail water balance needs for phytoplanktors and it would indicate burning the crap out of the water, because ive seen it work so many thousands of time including in person. The 10K gallon pond sterilizer tube array, 4 sterilizers in a tube array, was on my 75 gallon reef shown in some of my utube vids and with that I cheated every known ideal param there was for limiting nitrate or phosphate, anything with a water transitory phase -couldn't- grow in my tank, not that I was carrying the params to support that. a total cheat, again.

 

but the difference is the outcome....how is it some tanks go 20 yrs without being beaten? luck?

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jedimasterben

I actually used a 13w UV sterilizer when I was housing everything in a 14g biocube for a few months. Not extreme by any means, but it still had no effect. What would it take to clear from my tank? 30 watt? 100 watt? I'm not averse to trying it. Strong UV does kill them, but the problem is that they are only pelagic for a short part of their life.

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I overdid mine by orders of thousands of gallons all I know to do is overdo
rather than just throwing hail marys I really wanted to pose something other than what we've done in your tank and in chops, something I can at least say ive done in person and burned the hound out of some good invaders

 


Plus Im running out of ideas. and staying what if...what if they move in such mass that zapping three nights worth gets them, or becomes key to permanent riddance

no doubting your side that they may persist in a controlled or uncontrolled state at a micro level, that form of adaptability belongs on the reef, we deserve that type of challenge for trying to stuff this life into such small places.

but for every check there's a mate. maybe UV done right becomes the permanent, and functional dialysis for the post dino aquarium. there is some amount of knives we can throw at this man, must press on

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In about the middle section of the reefcentral thread someone named Windyridge I think had a problem of cyano making her water and walls orangish red

actually had some neo too, we went ahead and freaked on that with a screwdriver and she chipped it out (thorough and mean = awesome)with a removed rock treatment, but instead of buying a UV she was able to simply network at LFS her problem, and was able to go to local large pond owner w uv wrapped up in garage. el zapo, I get clean pics even after she took it offline. plus her tank was large/reg size maybe 90 so water changes were the least of what we did. had to zap the column

for our probs I say rip the water column out repeatedly, and zap, its relying on the principle you cant do enough water changes to kill a reef (only stress fish, so house accordingly depending on how bad you want to war w an invader) and through this many water changes we are by extension removing countable biomass

people doing partial water changes never agree with this, but Im in the mode of only doing what I know and they do the best they know. rip changing gives me unique results among tanks, thats fair to say so its not blind action. I was driven to mad water changes as the longevity goals for many a tank tried in the past had to get better

 

this insanity was arrived at
its the very thing id do if this ever wound up in my bowl

me and you and chop and the next nano guy has backbreaking wc work as well, I never say to stop doing it. i think its a pseudo indication from dino invasions that changing water perpetuates it, id recommend getting meaner on water changes not lesser along with this big bug zapper in line.

Randys article on dinos mentions phosphate control, and by extension thats what we're upwelling with partial water changes that in nature also bring sinked nutrients to the top. its food for pelagics


we should clean out these organic deposits in tanks that is preventing the big wchanges and taking longer to simply lower active dino mass, imo

lets test the dino and clean water theory. ya'll siphon some out and put it in five gallons of brand new aged unused sw and post pics in a week. lets see if its snot take over. if not, its you guys' organics. I think Im watching the partial water changers of the reef tank world get nano ebola, thats what I think of dinos

Im promoting this behavior over peroxide use. Id use big wc for weeks on end and massive uv as punch 1 and 2, peroxide or whatever else struck me as 3rd in line. at least for the tanks of serious challenge species dino as you mentioned

Borrow it, rent one ultra cheap. put out ad in lfs or online clubs</p>

network I think it w work

people here and on forums know you and w lend vial ups, simply pay some shipping and they will lend you 3x 19 watters, go for stacks of regular uv even if we can't find a single giant. You could source at least one or two unused currently in garage uvs just from web friends I think, and that changed your arsenal in a material way

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jedimasterben

I've done 100% water changes before with no effect, dinos still bloomed to the same mass within 24 hours. It's not an issue of nutrients or phosphate. Dinoflagellates would not be more efficient than Phosguard, and I've used nearly a liter of it before, again with no effect other than the death of more coral.

 

I also don't have anyone that is local (small town out of the way) and even within an hours drive in all directions there is little. Besides, if the person has a sterilizer that doesn't have a basically new bulb in it, I'd need to replace it anyway, and if I were to get half a dozen 10 watt or so sterilizers that is well over $100-150 in bulbs. I would rather purchase one at that point, and if it is a large sterilizer, bulbs are $60-100. :o

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PorkchopExpress

I just did a 30% water change last Sunday...i wouldn't say it made a huge difference...there was definitely a tad bit more dinos than usual when i got home from work but not anything crazy...so in my case yes the water change did fuel them a bit

 

as for UV sterilizers, i've seen so many people try this already from all the threads i've read but not really any conclusions...but you're saying go BIG or go home? like how big? 50w? i see some pond uv sterilizers on marinedepot for around $100-$150...there are also cheap Jebao ones

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jedimasterben

Fish-street has 36w Jebao sterilizers for $30 each, plus about $100 to ship three of them, so $190 for 108w of UV. They're 240v, so you'd need to get a converter to use them.

 

You could also get 55w models on Amazon for $90 each, so two of them is $190 for 110w of UV.

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yes huge oversize is what id do, to change variables up from people always doing a regular approach. we are running out of variables to alter. Just when it might have been thought no more options exist, we just came up with another and in that process is the cure. it may not be oversized uv, this is just what id do

 

the threads dont show testing with oversized uv equipment. its a change up with real potential imo

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jedimasterben

To be frank, I've spent more money to get less product. I might just go for it. #### it, what have I really got to lose?

 

 

Well, actually, copepods. I have three dragonets and a leopard wrasse that need them. I do hate to say it, but the three dragonets, which are my only worry, the leopard wrasse eats prepped foods, they are cheap as dirt, less than $45 for all three.

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PorkchopExpress

I might try this route as well when I'm done with this blackout and things don't get better. I also have that bottle of DinoXal coming that I would like to try. Not holding my breath since I'm sure it's probably the same stuff that's in Ultra Algae X but hey, running out of options here. Jedi, please let me know which one(s) you end up getting. I really don't know jack about UV Sterilizers. You thinking of purchasing multiple ones?

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I sure think we could find just from friends online somone who would lend you guys one big one just shipping paid. Its possible not to have to spend $200 on an approach for dino treatment although I applaud the dedication to consider it. if you put out a thread in any pond keepers forum, and link back to your profile here, or even this page, they can see whats up and that you have time on boards.

 

sight unseen someone out there w basically rent you one far cheaper than this $200, really we should try it. pay ship and return fling em 30.00 paypal for a month it can be done w just a little online self selling

 

plus im still interested in seeing the xfer of active dinos into a sterile fresh nsw culture, see if they bloom off ultra clean water. If not, that meas we have a battle point other than $200 in new gear. Testing why water changes are claimed to make these bloom is worthy, because currently the advice is to not do the one thing most indicated in nutrient based invader infestations in nano reefs-change water. they are making some mighty big claims to go against 20 yrs of common knowledge, so lets counter test em.

 

someone xfer via pipette some dinos into a little clear glass of brand new sw. post pics.

 

then set it on your counter uncapped, keep it topped off, and post pics in a week then two and thats a great start. heck, make a little environment out of it and bubble in an airstone set on low for current and o2 exchange variable support. just on low, kept topped off, we have something to actually verify in a week or so.

 

going off Randy's and a few other's statements about phosphates allowing dinos to bloom, if this isolation in clean water test shows to degrade them then I could see enacting gfo removal bigtime, up to the point of coral stress like we are doing with other techniques for dinos, not just what it takes to get clean water on test kits but phosphate stripping maybe even a little past that point considering how persistent these things are.

 

try to envision a cleaner than normal tank, with constant biomass removal as we see dinos amassing, big water changes that always remove detritus and invader biomass, with oversized uv and gfo stripping. if they survive that, and a kicker of peroxide then keith richards doesnt hold a candle to anything. if corals survive that, itd be amazing as well :) but threads online show how rebounding they can be. Im interested in what it takes to kill dinos in non reef conditions more than anything right now. finding that red line we know will work.

 

if the isolation tests show degrading dino colonies from being starved, thats what pushes me in the direction of cleaner tanks, not hands off tanks, when dealing with these guys long term. and even prior to that, tanks that are kept cleaner than normal through unusual cleaning practices preemptively may be better disposed to beat dinos if they ever are introduced.

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PorkchopExpress

So I had a little issue last night. I'm on day 2 of my blackout and I decided to test my new Hanna Alk tester. Well it registered at 16dkH! I had been dosing ESV 2 part without the calcium to get my Alk up high because I heard they can impede dino reproduction but I had no idea I had gotten it that high. So I decided I had to do a water change. After the water change Alk was at 13 which is fine, I'll just let the corals deplete it naturally back down to normal levels. I just really hope that massive Alk swing won't RTN/STN any of them. This AM they seemed still fine.

 

I was hoping to starve them dinos without light and without fresh water changes but I felt I needed to. HOWEVER, I noticed in the past that when I do water changes and when I put the fresh saltwater back in the tank, I see a TON of dinos suspended in the water before I turn the pumps back on. This time I didn't see any when I put the water back in. I know they're there but the 2 days blackout surely did impede their ability to reproduce. OR...maybe that high of an Alk actually did something? I've never read anyone getting their Alk that high, usually the upper limits of "high" is 12dkH. And I understand that Alk isn't really a thing in and of itself but a measurement of multiple things. I also read that in ULNS, high Alk can actually burn SPS. I noticed my Somewhere Over the Rainbow mille that usually has incredible PE was retracted and I could actually see the base. That was one of the reasons I did the water change, I could see he was totally stressed.

 

PS - My pH has been steady at 8.3-8.4.

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I had some dino's awhile back. I did a 3 day black out and peroxide and my dino's "looked" gone but of course they started to show back up by the next day.

 

Incidentally... I accidentally overdosed (twice) and I had 2 huge alk swings which killed a lot of my coral. The dino lost foothold and disappeared shortly after and has not been back.

 

I actually didn't even think about the alk swing affecting the dino's until your post about it. I figured they went away on their own but perhaps it was those 2 swings that wiped them out. Too bad it wiped my tank out as well.

 

 

So I had a little issue last night. I'm on day 2 of my blackout and I decided to test my new Hanna Alk tester. Well it registered at 16dkH! I had been dosing ESV 2 part without the calcium to get my Alk up high because I heard they can impede dino reproduction but I had no idea I had gotten it that high. So I decided I had to do a water change. After the water change Alk was at 13 which is fine, I'll just let the corals deplete it naturally back down to normal levels. I just really hope that massive Alk swing won't RTN/STN any of them. This AM they seemed still fine.

 

I was hoping to starve them dinos without light and without fresh water changes but I felt I needed to. HOWEVER, I noticed in the past that when I do water changes and when I put the fresh saltwater back in the tank, I see a TON of dinos suspended in the water before I turn the pumps back on. This time I didn't see any when I put the water back in. I know they're there but the 2 days blackout surely did impede their ability to reproduce. OR...maybe that high of an Alk actually did something? I've never read anyone getting their Alk that high, usually the upper limits of "high" is 12dkH. And I understand that Alk isn't really a thing in and of itself but a measurement of multiple things. I also read that in ULNS, high Alk can actually burn SPS. I noticed my Somewhere Over the Rainbow mille that usually has incredible PE was retracted and I could actually see the base. That was one of the reasons I did the water change, I could see he was totally stressed.

 

PS - My pH has been steady at 8.3-8.4.

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PorkchopExpress

How bad were your alk swings? Did your corals STN/RTN from the base or from the tips? Also, how long after that did the dinos start disappearing?

 

I had some dino's awhile back. I did a 3 day black out and peroxide and my dino's "looked" gone but of course they started to show back up by the next day.

 

Incidentally... I accidentally overdosed (twice) and I had 2 huge alk swings which killed a lot of my coral. The dino lost foothold and disappeared shortly after and has not been back.

 

I actually didn't even think about the alk swing affecting the dino's until your post about it. I figured they went away on their own but perhaps it was those 2 swings that wiped them out. Too bad it wiped my tank out as well.

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How bad were your alk swings? Did your corals STN/RTN from the base or from the tips? Also, how long after that did the dinos start disappearing?

 

Started disappearing within days. Bad enough to RTN some colonies completely overnight. :o That is what happens when you are sleep deprived and just get home from work dog tired at midnight and dose your tank.

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PorkchopExpress

well the alk swing did have an effect on my small PC Rainbow frag - as long as the flesh doesn't start sloughing off it seems the tip is bleached/burnt and not STN

 

small update - i did a 4 hour blue light only to feed the fish and corals...so far so good, fish were starving and ate like pigs and corals opened right up...no signs of dinos but i'm far from getting my hopes up as i've done 3 day blackouts before and they came right back...i plan on doing 2 more of sets of these - 3 day black outs and 4 hour blue light feedings at the end of day 3...i've also stopped dosing anything - not even peroxide...after that alk swing i don't want to stress out my sps any longer, they've now been through a lot and i'm actually quite surprised i haven't lost one yet (knock on wood)...if this 9 day black out doesn't work then i may have to try that oversized pond uv sterilizer but i'm hoping the 16dkH alk followed by alk swing and blackouts will have done it

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