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bitts

bitts

    Yes. I'm blasting Wagner. While chanting KILL Da NOOB.

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  • Denver, boulder, loveland, fort collins.....

let the cut in past begin.
think I got most of it.


n0rk
Anything happens, blame the Australian. Srsly, it's my fault. I'll take the rap. I'm a bad influence!

Do you keep Oompa Loompas in your tank yet D?

bitts
lol it is a lot of fish
Posted Image
but its also an ultra low nutrient tank. just to tempt you a little more.

DHaut
meh, it's nice for sure but the amount of time/money i sink into this hobby has its limits.

DHaut
Hey, you vodka dosers, answer me:

1. How much is your annual cost (estimated) for dosing vodka and microbacter?
2. Anyone still doing it? I know Henry had a crash...
3. Any way to dose lightly so as not to build my tank up to a point where to stop dosing or some other change would cause a crash?

MrIcky
To number 3- isn't that what bio-pellets are for? I mean- skip the vodka and have the much more low key pellets?

DHaut
What's the cost differential?



MrIcky
I'm not using it yet, it sounds like more upfront but about the same overall. It's about $50 for a 500ml bag of biopellets but that bag will last over a year in a 40 (from what I understand). Plus you need an upflow reactor of course.

Sounds like vodka method for the lazy to me and I plan to set it up eventually.

I forgot to mention- the last Coral Magazine had a good write up on DIY dosing and some of the new pellets.


bitts
well as to the pellets vs wadka 10$ for a half gallon of micormicks or 50 for the pellets.

pellets are so much easer though. but i've actually head that ideally you run both. was talking with me cousin over the weekend about why he started doing it. turns out that the aquarium is doing it on there tanks. the bottle lasts for like ever with my half pint bottle I've almost made it to the label in 2/3 months.

DHaut
yeah, that's what I'm thinking. i could dose vodka for like pennies a month almost.

dtfleming
My dosing for vodka was 10ml for the tank 500ml for me..............


Oh and the Equator Reef of Riches= the best doc on corals reefs i've seen. They had some sort of lock on it though, it wouldnt let me record it and It's not on "ON Demand" either.................


spanko
Not a crash my friend, what I did was leave the pumps off after feeding. They were off for around 24 hours I guess and lost some fish and 2 coral. I attribute it to an oxygen depletion problem generated by the carbon dosing and the pumps being off. Did not stop me, rewards far outweigh the risks IMO.
As for cost yeah the vodka is cheap. Microbacter also very inexpensive as you are only doing drops per week. Once into the regimen not really any work at all. Had my sister in law take care of it for me for a week over vacation time. do the microbacter once per week, the vodka daily. (I use Prodibio products, more expensive but I like the results better than the microbacter)

spanko
One of the best articles on carbon dosing IMO.

http://reefkeeping.c.../nftt/index.php


spanko
Aquarium Specialty. All that is really needed is BioDigest as this contains the heterotrophic bacteria packaged in a nitrogen ampule for stability. Here is some info

Prodibio goal is to combine science with aquaculture and biotechnology to create one of the most unique products we have seen on the market. Each ampoule that comes in these unique packages is packed in nitrogen to provide excellent product stability which almost gives it no shelf life. Every mirco organism used is tested for quality in the labs using stringent bio chemical test’s to ensure a high quality batch every time.

Prodibio Bio DIGEST

Bio Digest is composed primarily to increase the performance of your denitrifying bacteria by adding the strains that perform that exact job.

Prodibio goes as far as making sure that these strains contain no genetic deformations while creating them. Each strains DNA is tested for compatibility and efficiency in salt and fresh water.


There are other products available for additional enhancements. I use the Nano pack myself as it includes a number of the items. But I am sure if you are stickily looking for the nitrate and phosphate reduction via the heterortrophs the bio digest would be the equivalent of MB7.

Some more info from users.

http://www.aquariums...5c0c50dda4a645d

bitts
d try 1 drop (0.01ml or less) every other day, for a week or two. then every day far a week. see if it makes a difference in the skimmer out put. the main reason I do it is that it makes my skimmer work, where other wise its a tad over powered & wont produce much. I've never bothered with the taking it up to the point where I hit 0 then cut it in half. I just use it to give the skimmer a boost. but its still amazing what it can do to the water clarity. this is why its recommended by some to do both. for the recored I do 3 drops a day with 30 gallons of total system volume.


DHaut
SHUT UP ROO BUM TOUCHER

I'll dose vodka.


ap123
Thanks Henry :)

Let me ask you this (prompted by a thread from my local forum); what do you consider this form of manipulation to be? Someone made an excellent comparison to attempting to grow trees in space, and forcing a perpetual autumn so the pretty colors would be there at all times. So, is this like genetically engineered food? Or more like selective breeding for certain traits within dogs/cats/etc?

Do you think these methods bring us closer to recreating the ocean? Or bring us to a new direction in reefkeeping?

PS: Vodka makes me face do this :blink:

n0rk
ZEO in and of itself relative to other nutrient control methods as an ongoing isn't really that expensive... to buy into it isn't exactly cheap, but once you hit ULN the basic 4 requirements aren't bad. It's when you get to be like me and get 13 supplements that it gets to be somewhat expensive... :huh:

ap123
This. Besides the fact that I really can't afford the initial outlay right now, it seemed to me the people who keep going with zeovit for more than 6 months or so have to add more and more supplements as time goes on.


:lol:
I did once have an uber expensive shot of frozen vodka in a frozen shot glass. That was nice, syrupy water. Otherwise, I'll stick to gin, thanks. B)

spanko
It's when you get to be like me and get 13 supplements that it gets to be somewhat expensive...

I hear ya on that nOrk, same problem here.

Anne, Not sure a manipulation but perhaps more of an additional control method to trying to keep the same balance in a glass box as what the ocean offers.

Natural sea water parameters of


Nitrate (NO3)
Natural Seawater Value: 0.050 mg/L
Acceptable Range: 0.000 to 25 mg/L


Phosphate (PO4)
Natural Seawater Value: 0.030 mg/L
Acceptable Range: 0.000 to 0.250 mg/L

Carbon dosing to me is just another method to try to simulate what is the norm. Growing trees in spac, or the perpetual autumn are not the natural norm. JMO

DHaut
ULN systems seem to eventually starve corals and therefore require supplemental additives to keep them growing. I'm not looking to do a true ULN - I, like bitts, just want to increase my skimmer output and help cut back on some algae growth.


n0rk
Not so much. The only mandatories are the basic 4, everything beyond that is optional. Most will add more supplements because the intent does tend to be to pursue colour and growth enhancement long-term, but realistically you could get by never using more than amino acids while under the ULN condition. That said, without feeding the corals you do run the risk of them starving... it's not for everyone. Best way to start is VSV and a bacterial source (MB7 and ZEObak both give excellent results), I used to do that with home-made amino acids and had amazing colours. :)


spanko
My original reasons for dosing were,

to get better polyp extension and color from my SPS coral specifically as well as improved water clarity and reduced green algae buildup on the tank glass and rockwork.

Part of that is also, if you are increasing the heterotrophs in the tank and they are therefore utilizing the nitrates and phosphates before they are able to accumulate you also can feed the tank more. This to help the fish but also the coral with growth, color etc.

I feed heavily everyday, yup everyday. I use frozen food, flakes, pellets, live brine, of course not at the same time. I have undetectable levels of nitrates and phosphates and the only algae I ever see is the stuff on the glass that wipes off with the magfloat and coralline.

FYI DH, I started dosing 2 drops per day of 80 proof Mohawk. Increase that amount by drops and am now up to 1ml. I have stopped there even though the calculator says I should be doing more because I am happy with what it has accomplished and am not willing to take the risks of doing more.

spanko
Mb7 about $12 bucks for 500 ml.

Medium- to High-nutrient Systems, or to seed Biological Filtration in new aquaria: To effectively decrease the concentration of available nutrients and waste material in all marine and freshwater aquaria, add 5 ml (1 capful) per 25 US-gallons (94.6 L) [˜4 drops per gallon (3.8 L)] of aquarium water daily for the first two weeks of use; the impact that MicroBacter7 has on an aquarium is most evident within this period. Turn protein skimming and UV-sterilization off for a period of 4 hours following addition to aquaria. A noticeable difference in water clarity is typically apparent within 30-minutes of dosing. Follow same instructions for new aquarium start-up. Thereafter, switch to “low-nutrient” dosage (below).

Stable, Low-nutrient Systems: To maintain a low concentration of available nutrients in all marine and freshwater aquaria, 5 ml (1 capful) of MicroBacter7 per 50 US-gallons (189.3 L) [˜2 drops per gallon (3.8 L)] of aquarium water no more than once each week; alternately, add 1 drop per 50 US-gallons daily (or 1 drop per 25 US-gallons every other day). Turn protein skimming and UV-sterilization off for a period of 4 hours following addition to aquaria. Dosage may be adjusted according to perceived benefit to aquarium, however it is recommended that the dosage not exceed 1 drop per 10 US-gallons per day. With time, hobbyists may determine that decreasing the dosage and/or dosing frequency by up to 50% sufficiently maintains a low-nutrient environment. During changes in biological filtration or when increasing the aquarium bioload, dose 1 drop per 25 US-gallons daily for one week, then resume “low-nutrient” dosage.


So 5ml to 25 gallons of water daily for 14 days. 5 x 14 = 70ml used to prepare system. 2 weeks gone.
Then 2 drops per gallon per week. 2 x 25 gallons = 50 drops. 1ml = approximately 20 drops so about 2.5 ml per week.
500 ml - the 70 ml to prepare the system = 430 ml left.
use that at a rate of about 2.5 ml per week = 172 weeks worth. (430 / 2.5 = 172)

I think my calcs are correct, you are welcome to verify and correct. Based on 25 gallons of water.

Anne, said calculator is in this article.

http://reefkeeping.c.../nftt/index.php

about 1/2 way down the page click on the excel table for 80 proof.

spanko
I have my reasons for trying Vodka dosing and explained them earlier, coral color, polyp extension, ultra low nutrients so that I can feed the coral more to affect growth, and reduction in some of the microalgae in the tank. That being said there are a number of things that have to be considered prior to undertaking the risk involved as. First and most importantly is the need for a skimmer that works. As the dosing works it increase the denitrifying bacteria in the system for the purpose of reducing - eliminating nitrate and phosphate. As this increase in bacteria happens and reduction of there nitrates and phosphates happen the is die-off in the bacteria. This is where the skimmer is necessary to remove the dead - dying bacteria. The skimmer is also an aid in maintaining oxygen in the water. The other risks include but are not limited to yellow water, burning of the tips of the SPS coral and in some cases loss of certain coral, and cyano outbreaks. My attempt here was monitored daily to allow me to stop at the moment I see any problems developing and take action to reverse it to the best of my ability. I also did not increase my dosing. I maintained a 1 drop dose of both the vodka and the amino acid throughout the time I continue this trial. I then as I started to see some positive results started to increase. Do read up on it if you are even considering dosing vodka based on what you will read here. I will not explain all of the ins and outs but only the results I see from it. It is up to you as the keeper of your systems to understand what you are doing, the risks involved, and whether or not you are willing to take those risks. I am for the moment.


Heehee, disclaimer!


spanko
Yup aminos are for color. I add 2 drops per night. 60 ml for about $18.
Here we go again...............20 drops per ml...............60 ml = 1200 drops.......2 drops per night on about 25 gallons of water = 600 nights worth. Still inexpensive if you add that in.

On the biofuel from the overview biggest difference I can see is;

Replaces “vodka method” of microbial activity- enhancement with a completely safe and biologically-sound, non-flammable alternative to using vodka or ethanol.

Yeah, marketing gimmick IMO.

DHaut
That's what I thought - when I read "biologically sound" I was pretty much done.

What diff. do you see with the aminos?

spanko
I have not seen any of the "paleness" or "burnt tips" that have been listed as side affects on my SPS.
Does it enhance the color of the coral, hard to say as I have not experimented with eliminating it. To my eye when I first started it up the color seemed to get deeper to me, kinda hard to explain. Did not change the shade, just like more of the color in the coral.

I'm at a loss for f'ing words here.

MrIcky
Can you do this? I'm under the impression that if you're dosing, you're running a ULN whether you like it or not. So you need to treat it that way. I'm a jerk because I still like the pellets- but I like the pellets because they are the growth medium and they sit outside the system. Vodka dosing makes every square inch of real estate in your tank and sump into a bacteria medium. It may be more effective because of that but it's an 'in for a penny-in for a pound' solution.


spanko
So........

1. Nobody else on here doing vodka dosing wants to input.
2. Nobody reads your thread.
3. The people reading don't give a rat's patoot about this.


I will have to read up a bit but I thought the pellets just replaced the need to dose the vodka, that they are the carbon source. Just because they are "outside the system" doesn't mean the heterotrophic bacteria is not populating in the display and everywhere else does it? Or am I missing something here? And are they really outside the system, as when the water runs through and is returned to the display doesn't what has dissolved from the pellets enter the display too?

n0rk
Personally, I used heavy feedings and amino acids to offset true ULN conditions in my last tank, and in turn used fairly heavy doses of carbon source (in this case was ZEOstart2, I experimented with it and Aquasonic ProBak) to help. On balance it worked out my nutrient import and export were pretty well in tune, though I wouldn't recommend pushing the boundaries of your system like this if you're not sure on the chemistry involved. I found excellent results with the ZEOstart2 which is exactly why I kept using it in place of Vodka/VSV, I found the metallic properties of the Acroporids increased markedly as a direct result, and flesh colour became more solid and vivid as a result of the aminos. It's easy to see corals exposed to free nitrogen without the burden of phosphate because they'll have an almost glowing-like iridescence.

My biggest problem with pellets is from a purely theoretical standpoint. As mentioned, they're in no way isolated from the display's water as seemed to be commonly held... they're passing exactly the same water as dwells in the display through a reactor, it's still the entire contents of god-knows-how-much available carbon in your watershed, and knowing biopolymers and how they interact with environment, there's about a million factors which will control the reaction and the rate of bacterial reproduction as a directly linked net result. Bacteria are not only surface-attached, this is especially true when they foul and are released. There's a ####load that can go wrong, and personally I wouldn't feel comfortable taking that kinda gamble on something which has so many variables (both seen and unseen) which can and will go wrong. I've overdosed tanks with free carbon before, as well as had skimmers fail at high dose rates... the results are devastating.

The most controlled way to do it is still administering it yourself with a syringe - nothing will ever change that fact. You control everything which minimises the chances for things to go wrong by unseen factors. This is especially true if you have no intention to pursue a proper dosed ULN environment and only wish to increase bacterioplankton productivity.



Nope. No way known. By definition, a true ULN is a system which has ultra-low available nutrients (it's the name... oddly enough), scientifically this would be being measured on the ppb scale. The entire point of it is to achieve a state of nutrient export exceeding nutrient import and stockpile, to allow for the controlled addition of nutrient back into the system. Until you get there, you're running a free carbon-derived bacterioplanktonically-active filtration system. Two very different beasts and definitely need to be treated as such.

MrIcky
1. nope
2. nope
3. nope

My understanding is the pellets are the medium on which the bacteria grow. They get into the system- but the actual growth medium is mainly the pellets themselves. I'm a hack though, so don't listen to me as gospel.





DHaut
nork = Ben, or RooRapist

n0rk
Truth told, I couldn't tell you what the hell is in ZEOstart2. It does smell like a slightly sweeter version of acetic acid, however, I never saw results anywhere near what a vinegar/glucose mix yielded which was aggregations of turf and slime on the glass. When I started I was using 100 proof Wodka (Polish, none of that crappy Russian stuff) which had passable results, coloured did noticeably improve and the water became more polished... in that way it did what it said on the tin. That said, I had a voucher for the ZEO importer here so I figured I'd give start2 a crack, the difference was night and day.

Obviously I was using it in much higher doses than the bottle said (by a factor of about 10... worked out to about 0.7mL twice a day) because it wasn't the complete method, but I noticed a distinct improvement in the majority of the colours over the Wodka almost immediately. Water was even clearer for relative doses, and the flesh was noticeably more vivid. Purples, blues, and pinks were especially improved. I didn't want to believe it at first until my sister pointed it out one night out of nowhere. Overall, it just seemed like a much less harsh way to do things, it also gave me some wiggle room with alkalinity too.


If I was looking to do carbon on the cheap, I'd use a combination source. A bottle of start2 isn't exactly the cheapest thing known to man (http://premiumaquati...&Category_Code= has it for $37.99 for 250mL), but it'd last a while. To make it stretch further, I'd combine it with VSV in a 50:50 mix, but reduce the vinegar component as I'm fairly sure that it's gotta be somehow related. Benefits plus savings. Or, con another reefer who you know uses ZEO into giving you some start2 now that start3 is out... you might just get lucky :)

DHaut
hmm...VSV = ? Very Strong Vodka?

Vinegar Sugar Vodka?

n0rk
Sort of. What we're trying to achieve is an incredibly inexact art which varies in needs based on a lot of factors. It's something which needs to be controlled manually and by the aquarist... pellets, to me at least, are trying to flap a one-size-fits-all on it and passing it offas a silver bullet magical cure to those inexperienced with the dynamics of bacteria systems. Just this last month I've seen three tanks local to me crash as a direct result of pellets, and several more approach the brink.

In the wrong hands, they're incredibly dangerous. I won't make apology for that statement either. They can work if all things are sorted... but based on the evidence which I've seen coming from a few really very experienced aquarists (and seasoned VSV and ZEO aquarists no less), there's just too much that can go wrong.



Yes. Correct. Some have different efficiencies at doing so and there's a bit more to the story, but the thinking is basically more strains = more likely to have good ones. Stick to MB7 or whatever, Prodibio is good but you do pay for the gimmick of it.

DHaut
Cool. MB7 would benefit from VSV then? Surely someone has perfected the recipe for it by now, right?

n0rk
From memory, Iwan used MB7 as well as ZEObak and Prodibio :) it's hard to perfect as such, the demands of every system are different so you can't make an aggregate as such. Basically, bacteria + carbon + skimming = yay sexy fun times.

MrIcky
That's interesting n0rk. Anyone have any clues on the what caused the crash? I have heard some VSV nightmares- mainly algae blooms and O2 depletion. I haven't seen that many people run pellets yet but they're pretty new.

The complexity of the other systems though just seem like they'd be failure prone. I keep building up my excitement in one of these systems, and then I keep hearing something that makes me push back.

Sorry to keep butting in on Dhauts thread.


DHaut
no one butts in here.

Thanks Ben. I think my initial plan will be to start slow with regular vodka and MB7 and take note of the results. If I like them, I'll look into expanding my regimen.

n0rk
Exactly. I'm all for simplification of our jobs as aquarists, but when it encourages a complacent approach to an inherently very involved and user-driven system it makes me a little bit dejected on the whole thing. Most of the problems people are wanting to correct could probably be fixed with better husbandry in the first place which is the stupidly ironic component.

Complacency in some cases, not having enough time or means to correct a runaway process in others. It's complex, definitely - make no mistake of it - but if you know what's going on behind the scenes, are observing closely (as you SHOULD be), and know how to respond to a deteriorating condition it's pretty difficult to #### it up.

Also, sounds good D :) that was how I approached it... you do get excited as it goes on and you notice small changes incrementally.

DHaut
Exactly. Slow and steady wins the race. Once I learn more about the complexities, I can start in on other things like aminos, different bac strains/food, etc.

n0rk
Word. A worthwhile thing to consider also is Potassium Chloride dosing, most ASWs are appalling for their K values which can majorly downplay growth and colouration, particularly on a carbon system.

n0rk
GET KCl AND PUT DAT #### IN YO WATER. ITS LIKE GATORADE FOR CORALS N' ####Z

spanko
hey Ben, good stuff but gotta add in Oxygen+bacteria + carbon + skimming = yay sexy fun times.
I know the skimmer bubbles are adding an enormous amount of oxygen to the system, but my one mistake so far using carbon dosing was leaving my pumps off after feeding one night. The heterotrophic bacteria while doing their job also consume large amounts of oxygen and will quickly deplete it from the system if not be added back by skimming, water falls through mechanical filters, surface agitation etc.

Again, not to be an alarmist, but go into this carefully realizing that a mistep could mean disaster and know up front that you are taking the risk on. Here is a good blurb from wetwebmedia.

"this methodology is not without danger...the right combination of circumstances can be catastrophic (I speak from experience). Secondly, this method only treats the symptom and is not a cure-all for what ails your system re buildup of nitrogenous/organic compounds. Are you aware of how this method works? The premise is the addition of a concentrated form of carbon (Vodka/ethanol) provides a food source that promotes the artificially high production of certain strains of bacteria for a limited period (until the carbon/food source is depleted). Some of these strains of bacteria have the ability to “double their populations every 20-minutes.” As this mostly aerobic bacteria population grows, along with the carbon source, excess nutrients are also oxidized. As implied by the name, this process is driven by oxygen consumed by the bacteria to drive their metabolisms…and therein lays the greatest danger in my opinion. Coupled with the wrong conditions (already low oxygen levels from overstocking, inadequate water movement, etc.) or unfortunate circumstance (loss of power/sump pump circulation) the artificially high bacteria population can rapidly consume all the available oxygen creating a severe anoxic condition"

divecj5
I wanted to jump in here earlier D but good Lord, your thread moves at the speed of light so it took me 15 minutes to catch up. As you know, I was dosing MB7 + Vodka for about 8+ months and can share both my positive and negative observations. (see below)


All things considered (VSV, MB7+Vodka, Prodibio this and that...), I would strongly suggest going with the plan you mentioned above. Start slow, pick up a bottle of MB7 (Aquarium Specialty is great) and start dosing 2-3 drops a day for the first 2-3 weeks. Some people start adding a carbon source from the get-go, others let the bacteria population grow and start to out compete before.

To be honest, for me, dosing just 2 drops of MB7 once a day made the biggest difference in both water clarity, skimmer performance, and coloration and health of my SPS. Colors were really out of this world. I should have just stopped there and been happy...but.....

Then I started dosing Vodka. I started off dosing .1mL per day and slowly ramped up over the course of a month or two (can't remember exactly since I stopped). I kept a notebook by the tank, jotted down observations and noted how things changed with increases in carbon/MB7. Things were cruising right along until I hit the 6-7 months mark, at which time I started to see a noticeable difference in coloration. I ended up getting the nastiest patches of cyano that took months to go away. So, things went from great to craptastic in a pretty short period of time. From then until now, I've been chasing parameters and generally driving myself crazy - dose more MB7 thinking that would help, change bulbs because I thought one long in the tooth, etc.

Long-story short, if your diligent and keep an eye on things, it will definitely improve the health and coloration of your coral. It was incredibly cheap for me to start so I gave it a whirl. Would I do it all over again? Not really sure.

If you're looking to simplify your tank upkeep and maintenance, I'm not sure this would be the best route, but that's just my opinion. One thing, you WILL NOT be able to keep macro...unless you're using your tank as a latrine and adding natural fertilizer :)

Is it only the hair algae that's giving you reason to give it a try?

-Adam


spanko
The amino acid will also help with the colors.

DHaut
ok, so i'll start with a couple drops of MB7 a day for a couple weeks and see where we are.

n0rk
Lab supplies would be your best bet. They use it as a horse feed over here so we can source it from produce stores as well. Though being in the city I doubt you're gonna have many places to get food for your horse...

Anybody looking to carbon dose (and especially those seeking to go to true ULN conditions), PAY ATTENTION TO THIS. Without a skimmer under this high bacterial productivity condition, you will starve the water column and in turn your livestock! It can come on ridiculously quickly, and this is exactly why productive skimming with a high-air skimmer is vital to the success of this method! Your only exit point under skimmer failure is massive surface agitation, or not pushing the boundaries with high doses!

ULN ≠ pastel fwiw. That's the result of what we in the ZEO community call "Spur2 Abuse" :) basically, the selective thinning of zooxanthellae through the use of a mildly poisoning effluent. In small doses, Spur2 can be pretty sweet... but going overboard (as you often see from high-end ZEO tanks, hence the common misconception that ULN === pastel) is pretty weak. http://www.masa.asn....h...48&t=160997 and http://www.masa.asn....nt/view/274/58/ are both ULN tanks in their natural state :)

bitts
Dang guys I get busy & miss out on all the fun.

First thought is that ben & henry need to cut n paste the last couple pages into a good strong write up. Before some else does with a title using that good sexy fun quote. Maybe something like spanko & roo rapists guide to good sexy fun. Yeah that sounds good. One thing that I don't think I saw covered, was to keep an eye on alk. the increase in denitrafacation will increase the rate a tank consumes it at.

As to skimmer size/performance. its not the relationship to the tank size so much as it is to the bioload. Carbon can boost the load helping the skimmer become more efficient. Or you could just add more fish. Well carbon does help other ways too. Another thing that I was wondering about. Since we've talked about the dif between wadka & pellets, is the use of bio active salts. Think it was tropic marine that I was talking to AM about. Seemed like it could have the same issues. But was hoping that ben or henry might weigh in on it.

One last thing before I go get my self a drink, brought on by the upteen pages of wadka & whiskey talk is that you guys need step it up n get a bottle of lagavulen or highland park 18.


spanko
Hey Butts(heehee)
"As to skimmer size/performance. its not the relationship to the tank size so much as it is to the bioload. Carbon can boost the load helping the skimmer become more efficient."

Carbon dosing and the heterotropic bacteria population explosion result produce what is termed mulm. This mulm is nothing more that the bacteria population in what looks like a film that grows on just about everything in the tank. I see it mostly on the glass and on the filter pads\floss in my tank. Others see it as a film on the surface of the water in their sumps. Great food for fish, coral etc by the way. When cleaned off the glass in my display every few days you can see it in the water and whether or not it is just my imagination I think that especially the photosynthetic gorgs I have really extend their polyps. The skimmer looks to be more efficient because it is helping to remove this abundance of bacteria (mulm) from the water. Think water clarity here too. So not so much that the skimmer is being more efficient in removing the normal proteins we think about in a system that is not running ULN, but actually helping to remove this "overabundance" of heterotrophs.

spanko
By the way another good thread on the subject. DH has me going back through my bookmarks from when I was investigation this too. This one I found actually after I started dosing.

http://www.worldwidereefers.com/forums/sho...stem-(ULNS)-FAQ

divecj5
I would start with the MB7 first. Although I could be wrong, adding a carbon source without increasing the heterotropic bacteria population first could be a bad thing (aka fueling algae growth).

spanko
Hi Anne, IMO you should start to build the colony of bacteria first, but this is not necessary. You can do the vodka first without harm.

I am going to continue to post up some of my research as I go back through it until DH tells me enough, stop, my head is exploding.

Here is an excerpt from an article that really hits home what the heterotrophic bacteria does on the reef. I bolded the parts that really hit home with me.

"Via heterotrophic bacteria and microscopic bacteriovores, such as protozoans and meiofauna, the microbial loop efficiently recycles dissolved organic matter (DOM) that leaks from primary producers (such as algae, photosynthetic bacteria, corals, etc.). Heterotrophic bacteria are mainly sinks as they mineralize more than 50% of assimilated DOM). As shown in fig.1.3b, the microbial loop is responsible for the decomposition of almost all of the organic material reaching coral-reef surfaces. Yet still, the microbial loop supports much growth at higher trophic levels, leaving little to be buried as organic sediment1.16b Since microbes are R-strategists, they not only have fast generation times but also have large surface to volume ratios.1.16c This enables them to respond rapidly in numerical and metabolic terms to changes in the supply and quality of organic material"


And here is the entire article, for those academics that can stand it. It tells a lot more than just the discussion of bacteria but also how the planet works to help give the reefs a place to live.

http://www.sbg.ac.at...n/reefs/ch1.htm

bitts
Henry do you have any more articles like the last one. Please.

spanko
What interested you about it?

DHaut
I just had a thought about dosing - when I go on vacation this T-giving and Christmas, I won't have anyone around to dose. Does it matter if I miss a few days of dosing?

spanko
Hey Bitts.

http://reefkeeping.c...08/cj/index.php
http://reefkeeping.c...10/cj/index.php

bitts
Na thread needs m vodka talk.

n0rk
So as an experiment on my unstocked/cycling tank, I threw in my old dose of start2 this morning before I went out... come home tonight and the difference it's made on it's own is astounding. No changes to anything else, skimmate production went up by about 350%. Not sure what I was trying to achieve, but it was interesting to see how a broken skimmer became infinitely more productive with little more than a few mL of free carbon to push it along :) I do miss the days of running a simple tank, but hey, results is results.

bitts
this was kind of my thought with my old remora. its not the skimmer, hell I had it pulling stuff 10x10 with out help, you just need to do a little something to help it out.

DHaut
Just got some mb7 and dosed 2 drops. What should my dosing regimen be for the first week or two again?

DHaut
Posted Image

spanko
Uh, what do the instructions say?

Tank looks real good man.

DHaut
Something about a capful per 25g every day for a week to start. I did a capful tonight. I'll probably drop down to the low-nutrient dosage tomorrow...whatever that is.

spanko
Yeah I was doing the maintenance dose even at the start, 1/2 ca pfull per week per 25 gallons. But I had already been doing vodka dosing a Prodibo. I stopped Prodibio to try the MB7 cause it was less expensive but I wasn't getting as good results.

DHaut
yeah, def seems like the probidio stuff is fancier.

tonight's test: calc 360, alk 5.8 (shiz)

didn't test mg, just dumped some kents in.

spanko
Have you been dosing calc? What salt mix you using and what is the calc after mixing and at what Sg?

Just bein nosey!

DHaut
I never test my NSW - but I'm using ESV 4-part salt. I don't dose anything - I only test about once a month. I'm pretty lazy, but I'm going to change that now that I'm dosing bacteria.

Anne, I put a capful of mb7 in some tank water in a cup, swirled around, and dumped in the sump. I didn't turn the skimmer off. Not that concerned. I'm using a hypodermic needle to dose vodka. But I only dosed like 5 drops from the needle - which was less than 0.1ml. And I only did that for shiz and giggles because I felt like a tweaker.

DHaut
Yep, vodka in the sump.

spanko
I would dose the MB7 once per week after water change. At 1/2 cap full per 25 gallons.
On the booze, stay with the 5 drops for now, everyday.

These are only my opinions. But I believe them to be on the very conservative side.


DHaut
Ok, so I'm dosing .025-.03ml vodka daily (depending on how i'm supposed to read the syringe). I'm also dosing 2 drops of mb7 daily (vs. the capful weekly). We'll see how it goes.

DHaut
Here's a clearer FTS than the last one:

Posted Image

I suspect success can be most immediately tracked by the disappearance of the green turf algae.

spanko
you said .025 ml, did you mean .25ml?

See post #4041


DHaut
Probably, but the bulk of my LR is in the sump, so that's where I want the bulk of the bacteria to grow.

And you're right Henry, I meant .25mL, not .025. Sorry - I deal with interest rates all day long and sometimes the transposing back and forth to a decimal doesn't go so well.

ap123
How's the vodka going for you, have you gone on to the next level of dosing? See any difference yet?

DHaut
i'm getting some darker skimmate when i actually get the thing to work. no difference yet in algae level or coral color. only been a few days though. I'm sticking with .25mL vodka and 2 drops of mb7 a day for a couple more weeks. eventually i'll drop down to 1 drop of mb7 daily.

oh, i'm dosing ketel one, btw. lol.


ap123
Ok, I'm sticking with the program and going to go up to the next level of dosing tomorrow. Today was day 3 of btw .20 and .25 for me.

More skimmate, and today there was no haze on the glass to magfloat away. No difference in gha. *Maybe* my acro is looking a bit greener, but that could easily be my wishful thinking.

spanko
Anne and DH the first thing you should look for is the amount of scraping\cleaning you have to do on the glass drastically decreasing and the clarity of the water.

Just some thoughts.

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ap123

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Thanks Bitts!

Very helpful to have it all laid out (links and all) like this :D :flower:

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WHOAAAAAAAAAAA

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Thanks for putting that info together. Very helpful as I am about to start this process as well.

                                                                                                    30g IM Nuvo Cube                     Proudly sporting a:

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#5
bitts

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hey guys
hope its helpful, that & it doesn't read like jibberish.
nearly forgot. source thread. http://www.nano-reef...?...412&st=3760

Edited by bitts, 29 October 2010 - 03:04 PM.


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spanko

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Skimmate production from Aquaticlife Miniskimmer with vodka dosing.

Posted Image

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bitts

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here's a link to melevsreef about dosing, has some great pics.
http://www.melevsree...dka_dosing.html

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bitts

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info from ap123's 45 thread

It will make the skimmer work overtime for the whole time you are dosing. Speaking of skimmers I need to empty mine, its getting disgusting.



the whole chemistry thing with dosing just gets weird. but chemistry's that way to start with. one thing to watch is how quickly the numbers are swinging around. denitrification uses up alk, so accelerating it with wadka will, well you get it.



also started a thread based off of the conversation in dan's thread on wadka. hopefully it will let us keep track of the info better. http://www.nano-reef...howtopic=252226



Vodka dosing will increase the ALK in your water. You should check your water weekly. If this happens bring the ALK down slowly.


henry dinitrification use's up alk if I understand things (doubtful with how much I like chem). so could you touch on how vodka dosing increases alk. this would be very helpful.

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#10
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While continuing my reading on the effect of vodka dosing I thought this interesting and worthy of note from Tom over on RC.

"The heterotrophic bacteria you are trying to grow when you dose organic carbon such as ethanol( aka vodka) need: carbon, nitrogen and phosphate to grow. They use these things in ratios specific to the strain but as a general perspective the ratio for marine life is 116partsC to 16 parts N to 1 part P. So, much less P is used than N and C. I'd definitely lower the PO4 to less than 0.1ppm with gfo,lanthanum chloride or whatever method you choose and go from there. "

#11
bitts

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Thats an awesome point Henry, I'll have to check some of the literature I've found. To see if I can find more info.

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can I dose bacteria without vodka and no skimmer?

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spanko

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Where will they get the carbon from?

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the carbon fairy?

so, new question, how do you achieve low nutrient in a pico with no skimming?

#15
bitts

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90% water change 3x a week.

Seriously though. I would expect you to be able to dose a drop or two of mb7. With out to much in the way of repercussions. The growth will how ever be limited to the amount of C present in the system vs the amount of P. This is why think dosing would be okay, sine the risk of depleting the O2 levels in the same way would be minimal. unless the was an unexpected source. so long as the flow is good & the tanks temp is kept to around 78. it should be ok though.

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so, if there's no carbon present, what's the point? will the bac even be effective? what if I added an air stone to oxygenate the water?

#17
bitts

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Actually D in the case of your pico. Bio pellets may be an excellent choice. The reactor could be the filtration while also providing most of the flow need for the system.

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i'm not adding a reactor. the point of a pico is to not have a lot of crap to go along with it.

imo.

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Adding air is always good. But results in salt creep. How ever I'm suddenly reminded of tinys air driven tank. Any way in a pico do the the size the amount of C to volume may be relatively high. Allowing for greater benefit than would be seen in a standard system.

was thinking that the reactor could replace the hob filter. If your running one.

Adding air would prevent the O2 level from fluctuating then the only ? would be to handle the resulting biomass formed through bacterial & platonic growth. Hmm... WC..

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I don't run a HOB. its an AIO pico. not much room to work with. WCs may be the best answer.

#21
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2 water changes per week. What did ElFab do?

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i'm actually planning to do a small change every day. i have a 2g bucket i'm mixing up right now, and it should be easy to do a cup a day or something.

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^this sounds very doable!

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didn't that BB tank with the ceramic rocks on reefbuilders or glassbox recently do a daily WC?

#25
bitts

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Hey henry about the info you posted earlier, on nutrient utilization in bacterial respiration. I know its in one of the books I have in that marine biology Library I've got started. I'm pretty sure its in one of the geomicro/geochemistry books, if you want to take a look. just can't seem to remember which.