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Coral Vue Hydros

Protein Skimmer


mokick3

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protein skimming depends on ur bioload.........if u have a large bioload then u still dont HAVE to get a skimmer but its the easier way out.........there is such a thing as over skimming and it doesnt only take out bad organics in the water, the skimmer also takes out good nutrients.......

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Undertheradar

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/index.htm

myth #17. Not that I am basing my entire opinion on one article either, based on my chemistry background, oxidation of the water can instantly sap it of many chemicals that many inhabitants need...for example: iodine. I think skimming should be implimented on tanks with mostly SPS and Clams...they like it. As for softies, polyps, xenia...they are better off w/o skimming IME. I am still undecided about LPS...they show signs to suggest a combination of natural methods and skimming are best. So unless you are going to keep just one or the other, a decent sized skimmer is a good idea. Personally, I have had good results with running a refugium and a slightly underrated skimmer.

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I dont know how it got started but theres the myth that a big skimmer on a small tank will somehow skim out the nutrient in the water and then you'll have to re-add supplements.

 

Ok my main problem with this is simple. The nutrients DONT STAY in the water column. They are either absorbed or digested/used/whatever by animals/corals/phtyo/zooplankton etc. So with that basic logic we can assume that the additives and supplements are being used up, thus why we RE ADD THEM! So then we get into the idea that MAYBE just MAYBE the sups/additives that stay in suspension somehow get "skimmed out". I guess the only REAL way to break this down to a credible conclusion would be to analyze skimmate and whats inside it.

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Hi I,m new at this but I might have found what you guys were looking for in Marine Fish and Reef Magazine volume 7.(On the average 1 pound of liquid skimmate contains 37 mg of phosphate,about 250mg skimmer sludge, approximately80 mg caulerpa and around 370mg Xenia.)Maybe this can be of some help, but they lost me.the article is called Nutrients At Work In The Home Reef.

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If you do some research , there are many Articles about overskimming a tank and what effect it can have on corals and their growth or lack of..

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I conducted a little experiment with my 15 gallon tank (when it was a reef tank). There were no fish, and just a small cleanup crew, with some soft corals. I had a CPR Bak-Pak 2R for a skimmer.

 

What I found out, was that I never had to clean the collection cup, it didn't pull anything out in 2 months. I also never had to scrape the glass of algae, because there was none.

 

The corals never seemed to care. My conclusion is that unless you've got some kind of filter feeding creature in your tank, ie non photosynthetic gorgonians, then I seriously doubt that having a skimmer will cause harm to your tank.

 

On the other hand, they are very good at keeping your water parameters in check, and are a good safety net in case a fish dies, or you overfeed your tank (which most all of us do).

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I have researched quite a few articles on skimming and one interesting one from GARF. This is the conclusion that they reached.

Summary

After four years of research on small scale coral farming we believe that moderate skimming of coral grow out aquariums will produce the most balance results. Growth can be increased by using no skimmer in many systems. We are certain that there are more natural food organisms in the aquariums we do not skim. This increase of food and the increases in nutrients can result in much more production.

It was also interesting to note that they said that skimming would produce more coraline algae...

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Unless I misread it....You can find the article I think it's at garf.org/reef farming news/issue#22 page 2...Also interesting is their conclusions on skimming and SPS...

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Originally posted by vyger

If you do some research , there are many Articles about overskimming a tank and what effect it can have on corals and their growth or lack of..

 

Such as? Post links if you have articles that can counter the myth of overskimming.

 

As i stated before nutrients are absorbed and do not stay in the water column. So what is the detriment? A lack of food for denitrifying bacteria? I seriously doubt there is an harm done to corals from aggressive skimming. I still have yet to see any information that would conclude that you can overskim a tank.

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Borneman states in the first sentence "I still feel there is too little information on exactly what, how much, and how effectively foam fractionation affects various components of the water column of reef aquaria." So he's basing the article on unknown or incomplete research.

 

Well i have problems with borneman's conclusion that its not good to have a "constantly stripped" water column. If thats the case then people should discontinue use of refugiums, skimmers, phosphate socks, carbon and the like. What he fails to mention is that everything (as i stated before!) isnt left IN the water column.

 

The only things that would be removed from the water column are: 1) associated with "bad things" that were trying to get rid of. Example, some molecules might be complexed with fatty acids or phospholipids......those would be removed by skimming, but who's to say that those molecules are even "bioavailable" when complexed?. 2) Another type of molecule that might be effected (not necessarily removed) by skimming would be something that can easily be oxidized (i.e. iodine/iodide).

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I showed you mine ...now show me yours....heh heh

All I ever said was that in my research I read some interesting articles about overskimming and that's all ...you can agree with them or not as I did not write them..

"Overskimming is a myth"

I have yet to see an article to back up your statements that overskimming is a myth.... Maybe it is. But in the same context as your argument , I have yet to see any conclusive proof. So then this is your opinion rather than A fact. .You may well have problems with Boreman's conclusions and you'd have to take that up with him, but that doesn't mean they are not valid. I'm not sure what problems you have with GARF and their 4yr study on skimming and the conclusions that they came to.but that's ok to you have your opinion .... And BTW I am not worried about overskimming my tanks because I don't use a skimmer..my small tanks run fine without one, I have no algae and have not lost any corals.

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Capt-jab quoted an article: "On the average 1 pound of liquid skimmate contains 37 mg of phosphate,about 250mg skimmer sludge, approximately80 mg caulerpa and around 370mg Xenia"

 

Not flaming you CJ, but when was the last time you had caulerpa and xenia in your collection cup? Furthermore, phosphate is NOT SKIMMABLE!!!! Therefore, this is a perfect example of an arrticle that...is WAY off!

 

To understand "the myth" you have to understand the process. What is exactly removed from the water column? DOC's......... dissolved organic compounds. What is a DOC? They are metabolites like phospolipids, phosphoproteins, proteins, fatty acids, blah, blah. blah. In order for a skimmer to work, compounds must ADsorb to the bubbles. Meaning there hydrophobic regions are trying to "get away" from the water environment their in. Therefore the only things that can be skimmed out of a water coumn are hydrophobic. NO3 and PO4 are water soluble.....and WILL NOT BE REMOVED as such. Only when complexed in large compounds (phosphate on a lipid...phospholipid) will they be removed.

 

Now there is one caveat to this!!!!! Certain molecules that are prone to oxidation (i.e. iodine) can be oxidized in a skimmer. They will not be removed by the skimmer because there water soluble, but the oxidative enviroment could make them no longer "bio-available". However, EB has stated that although many people dose Iodine and tout its benefits.....many people (EB included) have kept successful, thriving softie tanks without even dosing Iodine......so, it is anecdotal!

 

I'm with DIYDude completely on this topic......over skimming is a myth. Look at people running BB tanks with: 1)ozone, 2)UV, 3) Zeovit, and 4) wet skimming a skimmer that are rated 10-20x too big for their system size. These systems are practically devoid of nutrients, and solely depend on lighting. No ill-effects!

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OnTheFly, I know you weren't flaming me.I didn't write the article nor did I understand the analysis of the skimmate. I personally have a very large skimmer on my 5gallon reef tank and can't see any negative effects so I'm with you and DIY DUDE.

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When i think of "overskimming" i imagine my skimmers top popping off and spilling water everwhere when i added this alge control stuff...lol. I don't know about how it exports nutrients. But i do know you CAN overskim by just making too much water go into the collection cup. (at least thats how i look at it)

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I have to agree with UTR, the use of a skimmer should be based on two things - what you're trying to keep, and how high of a bioload you have.

 

For SPS tanks I think that skimmers are extremely beneficial. The less DOCs, the cleaner the water - period. Smell your collection cup and tell me that you want that in the water. SPS don't like (in the hobbiest sense - i.e. achieving bright colors) nutrient rich water. As I've said before, skimmers CAN remove phosphates. Drip Kalk and let the skimmer remove precipitated calcium phosphate. This is most effective if done in the reaction chamber.

 

For softie/lps tanks it may be a good idea if you have a high bio-load. Why are we so concerned about removing iodine? It's in almost every food you add to the tank, and everyone, more or less, is doing water changes. I'm sure someone will point to a link showing that iodine is necessary for some particular species, but I'm not convinced it needs to be put in via an additive or is important enough to not run a skimmer. But tanks for softies and LPS aren't the proper place for aggressive skimming - it seems to be more or less agreed upon that they benefit from water with a reasonable amount of nutrients. I know that's vague, but I doubt anyone can truly point to a level of nutrients or an efficient way of measuring them. So it's all subjective.

 

So the real question for Mokick is: What are you keeping? How many fish do you have? How often do you do water changes? How much do you feed? Base your responses off of that. This discussion of overskimming isn't helping him.

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Good point Clearblue about Kalk and skimming, but you're talking about apples and oranges.......PO4 and CaPO4 are two different critters with 2 different solubilities. You go from talking about the workings of a skimmer to adding another piece of equipment. If you add UV and/or Ozone youl'll also increase the amount of DOC (and therefore NO3 and PO4, as complexed molecules) you remove from the water column.

 

I agree that the level of skimming should be taylored to the species involved and the desired bioload. Softies like "dirtier" water, than SPS...but my zoo's still grow like weeds in nutreint poor water.

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