"The Vodka method" Anyone heard of dosing ethanol?

In the first issue of "Der Meerwasseraquarianer" there is an article describing how to dose ethanol alcohol in the form of vodka ( right thats what I thought too....) to regulate NO3 and PO4, has anyone heard of this?

The article was written by Michael Mrutzek and Jörk Kokott, two very knowledgeable individuals stemming from the daniel knop crew (they work together, have website together...) so I'd tend to trust the info... due to the production (vodka is cold-carbon filtered...) process, evidently the addition of vodka to a reef aquarium increased the bacteria household in the tank exponentially. the testers went from 15+mg/L nitrate to 0 (not appearing on test) in four days without waterchanges or the like. would be interesting to know if anyone else has heard of this or even tried it?!

 

 

 

 

for those who speak german

 

http://www.korallenriff.de/alkoholmethode.html

http://www.udo-gereke.de/html/no3_po4.html

 

 

 

and this was the test tank...

I would imagine the ethanol is a carbon source which fuels the growth of bacteria. Same thing happens when you add vinegar.

*shrug* I dunno.

 

There are so many different ways in which ethanol might be used to control nitrates and phosphates. They could be binding with the ethanol somehow, some kind of bacteria could be cometabilizing the ethanol along with nitrates, etc... Real scientific research would tell you what is going on. But for that, you need months or years of study with real microbiologists and chemists in real laboratory conditions. Not some brainy hobbiest who loves his booze.

 

BTW - is that your tank? Looks awesome!

nope the tank you see there is the tank on which they tested the ethanol method... goes to prove it works I guess... I'm thinking about trying it sometime

i would try it but I keep drinking it all.

I'd like to see the prototype experiment....."Hey Hans, nice party! Yah...opps I splilled my stoli in your fish tank!"

 

As a biochemist, I'm stumped as to how this could be?? I doubt the bacteria are getting "super charged" from it, since it is toxic to them (70% is a good disinfectant...I think Vodka is 40%). Without an O-chem text in front of me, I'd guess that NO3 and PO4 (both of which have reactive oxygens) are reacting with the EtOH to "bind" and deplete the NO3 and PO4. Maybe shoot the over to Dr. Shimek at RC?

 

Hey Shadow, Can you tell me how much are they dosing?

1 for the tank, 1 for me:

1 for the tank, 1 for me:P

1 for the tank, 1 for me:blush:

1 for the tank, 1 for me:(

1 for the tank. . . :x

LOL @ korbin. good one....

OTF, Randy holmes-farley seems to answer questions quickly as well. Check the Chem forum. Sounds interesting.

This would pretty darn expensive dosing, especially following Korbin's (optimal) method. 200 proof ethanol has traces of benzene in it I think.

 

Were there any fish in the tank???

Originally posted by MrKrispy

 200 proof ethanol has traces of benzene in it I think.    

 

Were there any fish in the tank???

 

or were the fish tanked

 

 

 

...sorry...lost my head...:-*

 

interesting concept though....my have to try that...

not with Stoly though....

more like Popov...

lol, this is turning into a fun thread (lets all bust out a bottle, gotta love the vodka ... )

 

seriously though here's some info on the running experiment:

this is not my experiment btw... refer to listed urls for further info...

 

Tank: 1000 mixed reef with 32 fish

5% Waterchange weekly nitrate constant at 25 - 30 mg Nitrat. Phosphate controlled with removing agents at 0,1 mg/L.

growth and color very good

regular Vodka was used (40% and with no additives)

Every day one ml more Vodka was added. Starting with 1,0ml per 100 Liters on day one and increasing to 1,1, then 1,2, 1,3 and so forth for the days after that the diagram reflects nitrate and phosphate levels

Start on 3.11.: No3: 25 mg/L Po4: 0,14 mg/L

Phosphate dropped within a few days to 0,092 mg/L. Nitrate stayed at ~25 mg/L for a few weeks. after about 4 weeks nitrate dropped from 25 mg/L to 4 mg/L. phosphate was not measurable. a day later and dosing 42 ml of vodka a day = 0 Nitrate und Phosphate....

 

 

 

 

all text taken from Korallenriff.de / Ethanol dosing also known as the mrutzek/kokott method

 

there is now an article describing how to build a vodka filter... it also describes how the exact denitrification process works, but its all in german, sorry doods... I'll post the link anyway...

http://www.lars-sebralla.de/mwodkafilter_bau.html

oh and I found one more at

http://www.udo-gereke.de/html/no3_po4.html

 

I've translated it for you so you can get an idea... hope that helps...

 

31.12.2003

1 ml Wodka per 100 liter water.

skimmer activity increasing

 

02.01.2004

2 ml Wodka per 100 liters

no visible changes. corals, gorgonias and mushrooms are all opening normally all fish acting normal.

 

04.01.2004 one week

 

sal. 1,022 bei 26°C

PH 8

KH 10

NO3 ca. 15 mg / Liter

PO4 - not measurable

Mg 1250 mg / L

Ca 480 mg / L

skimmage seems darker than usual

 

06.01.2004

3 ml Wodka per 100 Liters (12 ml total)

6 ml in the morning 6 ml at night

 

08.01.2004

gray film on front glass, not algae though to be expected from what the article said (Mrutzek/Kokott, Meerwasseraquarianer 01/2004)

 

Fish, stony corals, soft corals and anemones all in good shape, no inusual signs. gorgonians close for about 1/2 an hour after dosing, though this could be due to its position right under the filter in which I dose the vodka. half an hour later its back open fully.

 

09.01.2004

PO4 - not measurable

NO3 - not measurable

Hmm, interesting thread. Off topic first, had to chime in because ethanol (EtOH) is good at low doses (plz drink responsibly, not as korbin suggest ;0 ). Pharmaceutical grade 200 proof EtOH is not spiked because our rats did not go blind.

 

This is definately an experiment left for scientist (I wonder if NIH will fund a grant for it, no!). Bacterial metabolization sounds right, but why also take down nitrate and phosphate? Does another population of bacteria have to be induced by the EtOH to cause the removal of nitrate and phosphate from the water? Wouldn't this "bacteria" natually occur in our nanos and increase in the presence of high nitrate and phosphate without the EtOH? Or EtOH could be killing bacteria and then there should be a spike from die-off. Does any of this make sense?

The urban rumor among the science community is that "they" put some sort of reagent....I've heard benzene before....to keep us science geeks from making bloody marys out of it (reagent grade 200 proof EtOH) at TGIF. It is supposed to make you sick, but not kill you. Sort of a Pavlovian deterent......I think it's all folklore!

 

Thanks for attaching that Shadow....I'm going to shoot this of the Holmes-Farley later today. As for this being expensive......I doubt they used Skyy or Absolute.....more like Kamchatka or Smirnoff and $7 a bottle.....if it works...I'll be the lab rat! Quoting Bill Murray from Ghostbusters: "Back off man, I'm a scientist!"

 

EtOH - I don't know.....I saw an NIH funded study on the effects of Marijuana and hunger in mice. I still remember someone asking the presenter: "How do you quantify the munchies?" Funny as hell!

no no I thought benzene was used to remove water making the ethanol absolute. Not the ol "methanol to blind chem students" thing. Sorry.

I understand.....but you can make 200 proof EtOH w/o benzene. Like I said, I've done some pretty "sensitive" bioassays (GC/MS for one) and any contaminants (benzene) would show up.....never does! In fact, a lady in my old lab who had been at UCSD for 25 years, remembers the "old days" when they would make bloody marys on the weekends using 200 proof EtOH purhcased from Fisher Scientific.

 

I guess the moral here is drink 180 proof and don't worry about it.

 

Also, since the experiment was done with production "Wodka", 40% w/v and cold carbon filtered should be ok!

actually they used the cheapest vodka out there at 5 bucks a bottle... this is the picture I pulled off the site

 

(http://www.korallenriff.de/alkoholmethode.html)

sounds interesting.... is any one going to try this method? i would be willing to fill a 5.5 and try this method... i could use regular tap water with alot of phosphate in it to test it... ill take pics and post tests regularly... the thing is im under age and i dont think my parents would trust me with a bottle of volka.. soooo.. if some one is willing, you can send me a bottle... maybe two... and a case of corona... maybe a bottle of tequilla too... theses might help alot =)

 

naw im playing.. but i think i might test this out on my 5.5..

 

i can get my own stuff

EtOH makes everything better!

 

Nuff said...

Well, they've got the same thread going over at RC!

 

One of the posters (a Marine Ecologist) suggests the alcohol is "boosting" the anaerobic bacteria population........and that explains the NO3. However, everyone seems to be stumped on the PO4.

 

AbS - The Germans dosed 1mL/100L on day 1, then 2 mL/100L on day 2, then 3mL/100L on day 3...so on and so on. You might want halve that..since it is in a nano! Also, for what it's worth...Absolute would be a waste...go buy some cheap stuff!

ABS: if you want, I'm gonna get that issue of "Der Meerwasseraqarianer" and translate the article to post it. If you want I can send you the previously translated research from indepentent experiments.

 

this also goes for everyone else interested: : though I'm not exactly blessed with time, I'm gonna get the article and the info from other sources (websites etc.) and translate/compile the instructions in order to put together a plan. it may take me a couple of days but I'll send it to anyone interested or post it here on nano-reef.com if there is enough interest. kick me out a pm if you want and check out the threads at rc (there's a thread by myself in the ask dr. ron forum and another one by another german fellow).

 

hope that helps : )

Absolute=good vodka

 

Smirnoff=mixer vodka and NO4/PO4 reducer

 

Just joking of course.....you might want to "warm up" the Absolute before putting it in the tank IMHO

man, I joined this site today and promised myself I wouldn't post anything for the first few weeks. I hate when newbies burst onto the scene with tons of posts on my site... and I assume you guys are the same.

 

Although I know nothing about salt, I do happen to know a bit about biology and the normal bacterial response to alcohol (they don't like it) and this is very interesting.

 

I just thought I'd chime in about alcohol. Research grade stuff is not poisoned (no benzene, toluene, etc) BUT over-the-counter rubbing alcohol is. I would not put rubbing alcohol into a fish tank.

 

Since research grade alcohol is not available to the public (to my knowledge) Everclear (brand) and any other "grain" alcohol available in your local liquor store (depending on state law) might be the most economical way to purchase alcohol for this experiment. It is not too expensive and is nearly (if not exactly) 100% EtOH. So, each bottle is like 2.5 bottles of vodka... dose your tank and yourself accordingly.

 

HOWEVER, I suspect that it is not the alcohol causing the decrease in nitrate/phosphate levels. Rather, there might be some byproduct of the Vodka fermentation that is the effector.

 

Alcohol is quite volatile and probably quickly evaporates from the hot tank (we're talking 70-80F, right?).

 

I didn't read the experiment, but I'd like to see their controls. I wonder if they tried the same experiment with vodka left out for a week in an pan so the alcohol could evaporate.

 

Sorry for the long newbie post.

Originally posted by Korbin

I would imagine the ethanol is a carbon source which fuels the growth of bacteria.

i think korbin's right. i remember reading about alcohol (ethanol) possibly being used as the carbon source for denitration. i think it was suppose to keep a denitrator (e.g. coil denitrating) from crashing eventually.

 

i don't know if it came to anything tho. i had read it back in '98 and i would ASSuME that if it did work or was significantly effective then there would be more reefers using such a method. not a definitive way of determining a useful device. a diy still

I'd lean towards the carbon source as well, since vodka is cold carbon filtered on coal.

 

the experiments used plain old 40% vodka (80 proof) with no additives, over the counter stuff not research grade stuff....

 

oh and on the dosage: check out the translations, the one experiment used 1ml the first day and then increased by 0,1ml per day, not 1,0ml... don't want to booze up your livestock now......

 

 

I have the same thread going at RC, and there is the german biologist with a similar thread, I posted in both of them and there seems to be some interest (also by ron shimek, I posted in the ask dr.section) in how these experiments will work out, is anyone here going to try this method on a test tank or is it staying a european trend?

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...threadid=311348