So I got a durso setup in my 40b with the bottom drilled out for the bulk head.

I'm running one of those drain hoses (vacuum hose) from the bulkhead into my fuge.

I can't help but notice there is still a annoying gurgle (not as bad) and a ton of micro bubbles.



Any suggestions on cutting down on the noise and bubbles? More so the micro bubbles as they are really messing with the clarity in my display.

Thanks!

Try making vent hole bigger. May help with both.

Try this pull the upside down u shaped pipe off the durso it is 2 90 elbows together. Run a hose down the drain pipe into the sump no more gurggling noise just a little air noise being sucked down.

So I'm in the process of designing an overflow for a 40br plumbed to a 30br, then plumbed to a 29g sump. I'm interested in using an overflow which drains out the back.

Do you think it would be possible to "herbie" it to keep it quiet? I would need to do it twice actually...

Next, what do you think about inside elbow orientation? Up? Down? No elbow?

And finally, what about overflow bulkhead size? Does the backup drain need to be smaller?

See my diagram and tell me what you think.

Yes, that should work. I would just make sure the lower drain with gate valve is low enough so that it won't suck in any of the air from the surface. Maybe at least 3" from the intended water level in the sump to be safe.

For the primary drain, yes, I don't think it matters whether you have the elbow up, down, or no elbow at all.

The back-up drain is the same in mine (both 1"). But it doesn't have to be.



I'm pretty new to the herbie tho, so others should chime in.

Okay, so I've been going over this overflow in my head for the past few days and I think I've got the optimal design figured out.

I'm thinking that this internal overflow box will be about 7.5" tall x 10" long x 2" thick.

I've decided to use elbows to make the difference between the intakes as far apart as possible to minimize the possibility of air getting into the primary intake. The secondary intake will be about 1/2" below the teeth on the overflow. I plan on making this out of 1/4" glass (probably overkill, but I have some lying around), painted black on the inside, with acrylic or glass teeth.

Here are my questions/concerns I would like some input on:
1) I would like somewhere between 500-700gph of flow. What size bulkheads do you think I should use? Right now I have 1.5" for the primary, and 1" for the secondary. Do you think I could maintain the same flow (taking advantage of the herbie method) with 2 1" bulkheads?

2) To keep the size minimal, I decided to use elbows, which keeps the 2 holes for the bulkheads about even. Would there be a problem with the 2 holes being even do you think? I can't really think of any, but I have no experience with overflows.

3) With regard to drilling the glass, does anyone think the spacing of the holes is too tight/not tight enough? I don't want anything to crack!

Thanks for your input!

Make sure the overflow box is big enough so you have enough clearance to move the elbows in and out of the bulkhead. 2" doesn't seem like enough clearance. I'd actually get the elbows in hand and see how much you need to move it in and out.

Or better yet, since it seems that you will be adding the overflow box yourself, might as well try out the herbie without the overflow box first and see how much space you will need and such to get it working properly, then add the overflow box.

1) I have an eheim 1262, and get around 500-700 gph thru my 1" drain no prob. So using two 1" should be fine.

2) There shouldn't be any probs with having bulkheads the same level. The elbows should accomplish what you are aiming for.

3) Someone else will need to chime in about the glass stuff.

Hey thanks Tigah.... Your feedback has been critical in my overflow design. As I've never had an overflow before, I'm not 100% sure of my ideas... (It's a lot to think about designing a stand, tank, sump, overflow, & frag tank at the same time, and I'm moving in 2 weeks!)

Anyways, I think I agree that a 2" thick overflow might not be quite enough to place/remove the elbows. I just had the idea though of cutting off some of the elbow (the part that would stick into the bulkhead) since I think I only need 1/4" or so as long as I keep a tight fit and maybe use just a dab of silicone or something to keep everything in place and keep from air getting in. If I trim this back I think 2"-3" is more doable.

I also agree about the 2 1" drains... I'm thinking I will be fine with the 1" drains, but I'm still not 100% sure... I want a degree of future adjustability built in. As I understand it, the whole point of the herbie is that you can restrict the flow through the main overflow enough to make it completely silent, yet still maintain enough flow through it that you don't have a lot of water using the secondary drain either. I don't want to have an undersized drain such that the secondary drain would be in use all the time... So as of now I think I would be better off going with a 1.5" for the primary and a 1" for the secondary. I will still keep the holes horizontally even though and use the elbows to give the desired effect. I'm all for maximizing display area.

To help others determine bulkhead sizing, Wetwebmedia has an interesting experiment with regard to bulkhead sizing and it opens your eyes to how easily the flow can be restricted. They definitely suggest "go big".
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/BulkheadFloRateArt.htm.

I also like your idea tigah of putting everything together first. I think I'll goto my LFS and get the dimensions of some bulkheads (and probably just buy the PVC elbows), and then fashion everything out of cardboard or something just to visualize it.

I'll keep everyone updated on my overflow design.

Awesome link for flow rates. The herbie should be siphoning, so you'll get pretty good flow rates thru the bulkhead.

I also bought the bulkheads and pvc elbows to see how much space I would need in my overflow box in my planning stages. Yes, you can also cut the elbows to make it shorter. I don't think you'll need silicone tho.

Okay, so I designed my overflow and made a "model" out of cardboard.

The final dimensions are 8.5" wide, 6" tall and 3" deep. I think that sounds pretty good.. I'll use a 1.5" bulkhead for the main drain with a down facing elbow. The secondary drain will be a 1" drain with an upward facing elbow.

See the pics below.









The major thing I'm noticing is how smaller the 1" is than the 1.5".... But I guess that's how it is.

How does it look in cardboard? I think it'll look much better in glass (with acrylic teeth).

The only modification I think I'll need to make is making the teeth a little shorter. Right now I have them 1" long so if I keep the water level 1/2" below the teeth then I think that's a little low.

VERY nice, man. I like your thoroughness in the planning stage.

I'm going to make one more pitch for 2 x1" drains. Haha. The difference in size is HUGE, and you'll have to also think about how heavy all that 1.5" PVC pipe will be hanging from the back of your glass tank (again, I'm no expert on glass so maybe it's no big deal)... or even 3 x 1" drains like this guy: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=1310585. The only difference is he has 1 secondary drain to drain a small percentage of the flow into the sump and 1 more secondary drain to serve as an additional back-up just in case.

With regard to teeth, I think you should make sure you have teeth on all 3 sides of the overflow box. Also, it's safe to assume the water level in your tank will be about 0.25" ABOVE the bottom of the teeth, so 1" teeth means the water level will be at the most 0.75" from the top of the tank rim (possibly less if if you have tons of flow going thru the overflow box). Does that make sense?

If you add a vortech and get some wave action, you want to make sure 0.75" is enough. It likely will be tho.

FINALLY (and this is important), you want to make sure your overflow box is large enough to allow for the flow thru you are trying to achieve. More specifically, if you go to reefcentral (i know, i know) and use their drain/overflow size calculator, to accomplish 700gph, you need 11" linear overflow distance. And I THINK that calculation is based on an overflow WITHOUT teeth (the teeth will effectively reduce your linear distance thus reduction in flow thru as well). Right now you only have about 16.5" linear overflow distance, and if you add teeth, that'll reduce it down to some number possibly less than 11". Just something to consider.

Also, you don't really need that much flow going into the sump anyway (especially since they have vortechs, other small profile powerheads available on the market). You could even do a closed loop.

How big is your tank? Maybe 4x volume flow thru sump should be sufficient.

Thanks again for the info Tigah.

The tank(s) will have a total volume of 70 gallons. There will actually be 2 tanks on top of each other plumbed together. The top display tank will be a 40br and the bottom tank will be a 30br. The sump will be a 29g. The setup is very similar to evilc66's (actually I got the tanks from him - with broken back panes). I'm trying not to do this exactly like his tank though, and follow my own designs/ideas. The results will be similar, but I think mine will be better (Yeah right, when pigs fly...).

Anyways, here's my crappy sketch up model of the stand (Don't laugh too hard, it's my first sketch up model).
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/det...5f313ea877362c6

So anyways, I'm going to think a little more about how I want to construct this overflow. I'm going to make it from 1/4" glass spray painted black on the inside. I'm not going to make the teeth out of glass, so that will have to be some sort of add-on acrylic or maybe just some gutter guard (easy solution for increased flow)? I also found out a have another week or 2 before I can get this done due to a temporary decrease in available funds. I think I'll make another model tonight experimenting with a design that is narrower but taller (If I were to ditch the elbows).

Yeah, I use gutter guard too. Definitely maximizes the flow through the overflow box. I use magnets to hold mine up, tho some silicone theirs. The magnets are super nimbles from CJerome.







More time the better in terms of planning. Always takes me forever to get my plans down.

Nice draw-up! Sounds like a good project.

I used the herbie method along with an external overflow box. Learned a few things along the way, the next tank with this setup will be a little different. The overflow cut into the back of the tank needs to be nearly the entire length of the tank. That would also allow the box to be much shallower, which would reduce the overflow noise I'm currently dealing with...

Tubing runs from the bulkheads directly into the sump with a ball valve on the two main drains.

Back of the tank.


Bottom of the external box.


Box attached to back of tank.


Overflow in action.


Messy sump with a couple of design flaws...

here's an interesting web site cant rember who posted it origanaly though.

http://www.grow.arizona.edu/Grow--GrowReso...?ResourceId=188

Great link!

finally got both pic and internet.
thus pics of my drain.

I hope you haven't already cut it!

I think the 1.5" bulkhead is overkill. A 1" drain will work fine, and a 1/2" emergency overflow will be enough too. Nothing wrong with overdoing your plumbing, but at a certain point you're putting a lot of weight/strain on your tank.

The reason I posted is that you don't need to use elbows to accomplish what you are trying to do, and you'll be able to make the box much smaller. Are they threaded or slip bulkheads on the interior side? You can use a threaded or slip plug and cut it with a jigsaw instead of an elbow. Imagine cutting through the middle of this piece left to right:

You can also save space by using a street elbow, which comes in threaded or slip versions:


Hope this helps.

hey matt! open up some space in you inbox! this is Nate... you know the guy that wanted donate coral? i have a pm waiting to be sent to you! or you can pm me.

Hey wombat.... Thanks for your thoughts.

Actually I have not cut yet... Actually I still haven't finished the stand! I plan on doing everything next week (taking a week off to move - starting this Saturday!).

I haven't purchased bulkheads... Which do you think I should go with? Also, I'm not sure exactly how the plug fits into the schematic... Could you expand on that?

I think I'm starting to lean towards not using the elbows and going for a thinner overflow box. It might have to be a little taller than the 6" I was diagramming, but probably not much more.

Also, Bitts, thanks for the pics! They're nice & clear... What size drains do you have?

1" bulk into 1" pvc feeding 3/4" soft plumbing, with ball valve on both lines. back up drain is set wide open, primary is restricted to about 380 gph acording to the math. size of hole vs hight of water line.

Sure, check the diagram below. If you buy a plug like this one (threaded or slip, whichever one your bulkhead happens to be):



Look at it from above and just cut straight down with a hacksaw or chopsaw like you're cutting a pie (the red line is the cut). The plug will still fit/thread into the bulkhead hole but will now functionally act like your elbow, but with a much smaller front to back profile. Hope this helps.

Oh, and for your size tank (40g right?) with a tank turnover of 4-6 times per hour (even 10 times per hour) you will be fine with a 1" main drain and a 1/2" emergency drain.

Hope this helps.

keep in mind, that this while being very cool and down right ingenius, dorps the drain size to how ever large the new opening is. which may be to restrictive. may work better to just swiss chese with drill.

Good point.... I definitely like the idea though... cuts down on elbow room (pun intended).

For now I'm holding off on the tanks. I'm concentrating on building the stand, which will give me some time to really sit and contemplate the effectiveness of different overflow designs. I'll be sure to build models of each design (maybe buy some cheap PVC parts too) as I'm a visual person. I want to really maximize the space in this tank and keep it relatively un-cluttered.

My 135g has a center overflow which is pretty large, dunno the rate though. There are 3 bulkheads on the bottom, 2x1/2" and 1x1" . I'm guessing the 1x1" bulkhead was meant for the flow to the sump while the 2x1/2" were meant for the returns. However, I wanted to use the Herbie method and so I was thinking of using the 1x1" bulkhead as the primary line to the sump and one of the 1/2" as an emergency line to the sump and keeping the other 1/2" as a return to the tank, maybe with a Tee so I can have return outlets. The problem is I have no room to drill another hole so the three predrilled holes are all I have. I really want to use the Herbie method...what are your thoughts?

I know some will say that should be fine (having 1" primary and 1/2" secondary), but on a tank your size, if you had flow at about 4x display going thru the sump, that would get you approximately 540gph ideal thru the drain and returns. If the 1" primary were to completely clog up, the 1/2" secondary, even at full siphon, would not be able to handle that.

You'd have to either severely limit the flow going thru the drain (maybe. 2x display, so 270gph thru the drain and return) to be able to have the 1/2" secondary even come close to being able handle all flow in case the primary was clogged completely (tho I am not sure what the 1/2" at full siphon could handle exactly). Of course 270gph circulating between display and sump should be fine, you'll just have to make up the rest of the flow with a vortech or two.

OR, you could have both 1/2" bulkheads serve as emergency drains and just have the return line go up and over the top of the tank. Not a big deal.

OR, you could try to use a drum bit and make the 1/2" secondary drain larger to accommodate a larger bulkhead (assuming you have enough room to fit a larger sized bulkhead in its place.

2x 1/2" drains only can handle about half of what 1x1" drain can so that probably will be a major issue...I guess the I could maybe cut a hole in the back and plumb it that way instead of on the bottom since I do not have any room on the bottom...

now i know this might seem compleatly backwards but what about using the 1/2" as the primay. with the water line high enough above the drain, this should encrease flow up to the maxum flow rate of the drain pipe and open the 1" up to be used as the back up.

first does anyone know the the max flow rate of 1/2" internal diamiter piping?
second is the overflow deep enough to have the nessasry water level for a 1/2" primary, with a 1" backup?


now a 1" wouldent need that water above to reach a desent flowrate acording to wet's calculation
1"bulkhead @ 1" depth=338.6gph
1"bulkhead @ 1.5" depth=414.8gph
1"bulkhead@ 2" depth=478gph
1"bulkhead@ 3" depth=586gph
1"bulkhead@ 4" depth=677gph
1"bulkhead@ 5" depth=757gph

but a 1/2" may need a shockingly large distantce between drain and waterline.

my math says
.5bulkhead@ 9" depth=253.8gph
.5bulkhead@ 10" depth=267.6gph
.5bulkhead@ 11" depth=280.8gph
yuk. slow, but........

this may not be the flow you were looking for. but could provide proper flow through the sump if your display tanks flow was suplamented with power heads or vortechs. would use eductors on the returns.

maby, just tring to thing out side the you know.....

Can I use the herbie method if I do not plan to have an overflow box? I would imagine so, then the gate value would control the level of the whole tank. I'm building a cheap frag tank out of a rubbermaid type clear plastic container and this is what I'm thinking about for the overflow.

Click to view attachment

two 3/4" pipes. The lower one with a strainer and the upper backup with teeth cut into the pipe to act as a surface skimmer. Would this work? The container is only 6" high. Thinking of running the backup overflow to the top of the container and cutting the teeth 1/2" down. So the ideal water level would be around 5.75ish inches. How far should the main drain be from the water level, 3"?

Ok, I just checked out the design I posted above. Worked good, but the Ts after the bulkheads needed to be elbows instead. I should have known that looking at the pictures/drawings on this thread. The other thing I noticed is that without an overflow box, when the pump is off, the water level in the display will drain all the way to the lower standpipe. Not a big deal but means at least a 1/4 of the water from the display will drain into the sump ( +/- depending on lower standpipe height). With an overflow box it would only drain to the bottom of the teeth. Since this is going to be a high light coral frag tank and as such only one level I'm not too concerned with the water drain issue. Although I going to try and find a container that is a little higher than 6". I think 10" would be perfect. The low lights corals are going in a different tank.

Positives are that this setup was nice and quiet once the Ts were replaced with elbows. And the flow rate matched up well to the drains. I tested with a quiet one 2200 which pushes ~ 581 not counting the head height and had no problems. I think the mag 7 that will be hooked up to this tank and the softies tank will be perfect.

yea the overflow wall is for those of us who would have 8-10 inches (or more) drain out of the display.

Ok I figured this was the best place for my question. New tank with (2)1" bulkheads,(2)external durso drains, calfo overflow, and 1000gph return pump. Is it possible to have too much return and thats what could be making my system way too loud. Slurping and gruggling.
you can see in this pic that the overflow is just pulling from the corners and not the entire overflow


the only this that has changed from this picture is I added caps and drilled them and added some air hose to see it would quite it down abit- no help.


overall pic of the back to gisve you what I am working with...

Yes, that much flow going thru the 2 dursos will make some noise. You don't need that much flow going thru ur tank and sump anyway (esp with all the cool powerheads, vortechs and such out there). Why not downgrade the pump? I'm actually thinking about downgrading myself to something rated at 650 gph (so probably way less after headloss). And I have a tank of similar size.

ok added a tee, and a ball valve to the return line going back to the tank and reduced the flow going back to the tank by opening the ball valve and it works much better but still not 100% quite just getting a running water sound...

That works too. I did that with my 35g as well to reduce flow up to the display... But I think no matter what you will get some running water sound. It's just the nature of the beast. Herbie overflow method is pretty close to dead silent, but even then you will hear some sound of water rushing through the pipes.

Thanks for the help man

i had a very similar setup, coast to coast overflow with the external durso...it will NEVER be 100% quiet
ive tried everything and you can get it close but it'll start back up, i tried all sorts of flow from extremely low to high and nothing worked
i tried drilling holes and airlines and it helps but still nothing
i was getting noise mainly from gurgling and to decrease the gurgling i put something to lead the water into the pipes instead of falling into the pipe
and then i also got noise from the water falling into the sump so i put a sponge for it to hit and it still made noise but not as much

hey phaze5 try an external herbie on both drains. should help.

will this work? will it be quiet?




i did that just to eliminated pipe clutter. and to have a high water line in the internal overflow to get rid of the water splashing in that area. i prob won't need a ball valve right?

would be better off with standard durso higher up.
tank would drain, would not be quiet.
the original is for converting tanks that have been drilled and already set up, into herbie style systems.
or to elimanate one of the holes to improve structual integraty. not as safe as standard herbie but quiet.

hm..okay, lemme explain what i'm trying to do.

i have a 15 gallon and i want to do a internal overflow. but i only want to drill one hole and some kind of external pipe setup. recommend nething? i just want it to be quiet.

i already bought a 1" bulkhead. and its on the way to my house.


one of these? lol
wouldn't there be kinda of a dead spot towards the bottom of the overflow? and what if i need to clean that area out?




?????

would do a second hole and run a herbie style if you want quiet. other wise durso with pipe extending down like in the lower right example above would be next best.

for good examples of overflows, try http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=163883 and then of corse theres the guru him self http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=198581 or mine somewhere around page 7-8 i think.


rember silent means no air in the pipe; which requiers a ball valve; which requiers a back up drain.

durso's are farly quiet because the vent is used to control the waterline and keep it above the drain.
read an old thread, its an oldy but a goody. cant thank wet's enough with every thing ive learned from his posts. this will hopefully explane where to put the hole.

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...=19572&st=0

http://www.grow.arizona.edu/Grow--GrowReso...?ResourceId=188



you can also use a durso on the lower end of the drain line to help quiet it down.

so. i'm looking at the first picture. the main drain on the bottom doesn't require a hole in the cap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJGpSKJec1I
if you skip to 1:00 can i do it like that? is that quiet?

perfect example of herbie style. nice linky.

the only noise is the water flowing over the wier. and as long as this doesnt fall to far there is no noise or bubbles. use the ball valve to adjust the water line.

dont forget to use screans though, video doesent. tearing plumbing apart sucks in the first place let alone when it could have been prevented. so does lossing fish.

the first pic is the back of my tank. been running awhile. the backup has kicked in sevral times. is loud so that you know it running, durso. normally with the skimmer and everything running volume is bout 30/35db (sound meter).

the equasion for velosity of water through an opening ( hole)

v = 8 x the squar root of the height of the water ft/sec


the rate of flow (speed of flow through a hole this size)

rate = A (area) x v (velosity)

rate = 8 x A x the squar root of the hight of the water x ft cubed/sec










someone correct me if ive gotten this wrong but im pretty sure.

do you only use the the area/height of the water that is above the intake of the drain pipe? it seems like you would only use that. so, in a herbie, how much is that really going to be? not that much, right?

on the other hand, i'm not an engineer.

yes its just height of the water above the drain point. usally 4-5 inches is all you need. run mine just above 6" to make it as quiet as posable. but thats the only reason.
area is of the "blank" size of drain. in our casse normally size of the bulkhead.

So in the herbie overflow do you want some water to reach and flow through the emergency pipe? Or none at all?

Which is better? Ball valve or gate valve?

a gate valve will have more control, ball valves are less expencive.

the water line should be as close to the wier as posable, while staing just below the backup drain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pv3u0Sa1tk...feature=related