Full Version: Overflow Diagrams
thanks. i had read that using a gate valve makes adjusting the flow easier. i wasnt sure if this was necessary, since theres no place local that i can get a gate valve.
QUOTE(siwelk @ Jan 17 2008, 10:04 AM) 
thanks. i had read that using a gate valve makes adjusting the flow easier. i wasnt sure if this was necessary, since theres no place local that i can get a gate valve.
The ball valve works fine.
QUOTE(jpndave @ Jan 17 2008, 12:06 PM)
The ball valve works fine.
I'm having trouble matching flow rates on my Herbie setup... 1" bulkheads and 1" ball valve on the drain side. On the return side its 5/8" (temporary until I get the correct 3/4" fittings) with a quiet one 1200. I'll probably get a beefier pump soon, also.
The ball valve seems too imprecise to match the flow. It either rises or drains but I can't get a constant water level. Any thoughts?
QUOTE(Nellis @ Jan 24 2008, 11:46 AM)
I'm having trouble matching flow rates on my Herbie setup... 1" bulkheads and 1" ball valve on the drain side. On the return side its 5/8" (temporary until I get the correct 3/4" fittings) with a quiet one 1200. I'll probably get a beefier pump soon, also.
The ball valve seems too imprecise to match the flow. It either rises or drains but I can't get a constant water level. Any thoughts?
The ball valve seems too imprecise to match the flow. It either rises or drains but I can't get a constant water level. Any thoughts?
How much difference in height do you have between the primary and backup?
QUOTE(jpndave @ Jan 24 2008, 03:49 PM)
How much difference in height do you have between the primary and backup?
Right now the backup isn't plumbed. I have a threaded plug because I don't have any 1" pipe to make a standpipe. My tank is only 8 inches tall. My guess is there's not enough height in the water column above the bulkhead to get to the pressure threshold that seems to overcompensate for the rising water level. I dunno though, because it sounds like some people are running only 5 or 6 inches over the bulkhead with no problem. I ran my water level all the way to the brim and the rising still didn't slow down any.
Maybe getting a gate valve would change things? Or maybe dropping the sump down another foot? Right now it's about 2 feet from water level to water level.
QUOTE(Nellis @ Jan 24 2008, 02:07 PM)
Right now the backup isn't plumbed. I have a threaded plug because I don't have any 1" pipe to make a standpipe. My tank is only 8 inches tall. My guess is there's not enough height in the water column above the bulkhead to get to the pressure threshold that seems to overcompensate for the rising water level. I dunno though, because it sounds like some people are running only 5 or 6 inches over the bulkhead with no problem. I ran my water level all the way to the brim and the rising still didn't slow down any.
Maybe getting a gate valve would change things? Or maybe dropping the sump down another foot? Right now it's about 2 feet from water level to water level.
Maybe getting a gate valve would change things? Or maybe dropping the sump down another foot? Right now it's about 2 feet from water level to water level.
I haven't had any problems getting mine ballanced. I use this screen on the main drain:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~FT8652.html
And this one on the backup:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~FT8652.html
so there is 3 inches of "buffer" between the two heights. I tune the water level to be between the two.
I am going to change the backup to this one to allow more "buffer" between the two heights and so I can run a higher water level in the overflow for less noise. Just haven't gotten to it yet. It should give me more like 5" of buffer.
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~FT8555.html
The top of all of my strainers are the same height and about 1" above the waterline.
HTH,
Dave
As it is now, I have 8 inches of buffer and I can't get it to even out.
QUOTE(Nellis @ Jan 24 2008, 04:29 PM)
As it is now, I have 8 inches of buffer and I can't get it to even out.
Try a gate valve. Depending on the valve, you have much finer control over the flow rate than with a ball valve. Ball valves are better suited to isolation than control.
It does help to have the second drain because you can hear when it is at the right place. You can tune coming from either direction. Either start with it full open and close it slowely until the sound stops or start fully closed and open until the sound from the backup stops/the flow stops.
has anyone tried just sticking marbles or decent sized smooth rocks in the over flow?
bump.
QUOTE (reefkingdom @ Jan 31 2008, 08:56 PM)
has anyone tried just sticking marbles or decent sized smooth rocks in the over flow?
This might be a stupid question but why would you do that?
QUOTE (jpndave @ Feb 1 2008, 01:46 AM)
This might be a stupid question but why would you do that?
Well, I figure if you stick marbles or rocks all the way up to the top of the overflow the water could trickle down between instead of crashing at the bottom.
QUOTE (reefkingdom @ Feb 1 2008, 07:27 AM)
Well, I figure if you stick marbles or rocks all the way up to the top of the overflow the water could trickle down between instead of crashing at the bottom.
I would be worried about things building up in the marbles. In my tank, the water only falls a few inches. The drains have standpipes with screens to avoid the fall and noise. I think that is typical. The overflow designs are to minimize the "toilet flushing" sound from the standpipe not the fall in the overflow.
HTH
My point is to also decrease the amount of noise. It wouldn't be that hard to clean marbles though.
just thought i would add some of the diagrames ive collected sorrry im not sure whos they are
Is this a hangon overflow?we had many difficulties with this hangon overflow system??like releasing too many bulbs...
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/29...ng-Kits/elbow/0
Can anybody think of a reason that these bulkhead kits wouldn't work for a "herbie" method setup? My bottom glass is tempered so if I'm going to drill I have to go through the side glass and these seem to be ideal.
Can anybody think of a reason that these bulkhead kits wouldn't work for a "herbie" method setup? My bottom glass is tempered so if I'm going to drill I have to go through the side glass and these seem to be ideal.
QUOTE (YeahitsK @ May 29 2008, 09:06 AM)
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/29...ng-Kits/elbow/0
Can anybody think of a reason that these bulkhead kits wouldn't work for a "herbie" method setup? My bottom glass is tempered so if I'm going to drill I have to go through the side glass and these seem to be ideal.
Can anybody think of a reason that these bulkhead kits wouldn't work for a "herbie" method setup? My bottom glass is tempered so if I'm going to drill I have to go through the side glass and these seem to be ideal.
looks good from here. also look at gl#######s.com if you need a hole saw.
I have a question. I just setup an external durso overflow. I have a ball valve connected to the drain to control the flow and level. Why do I need a hole on the top of the PVC cap? Doesnt the ball valve do the same thing as the hole? Or is the hole some kind of precaution measure? Thanks
If I remember right the hole prevents a siphon and vacuum from occuring. It does this by allowing air into the pipe. It also can be used to slow down the drain speed.
So would you say its necessary?
I have read just about everything I can, and i still dont understand what the point of the "t" with a hole drilled at top is for. My plan is for 1" bulkhead about 2" from bottom of tank, going to a 90 elbow to sump, with a gate valve inline. For a return I will have a mag5(trial) pumping up to two retruns(ball or gate valve on that if needed). My tank is going to have an internal center overflow, in my mind as long as i have enough empty area in my sump to take on water in a power outage, then the water lever drops below the overflow "teeth" level then now more water can enter into my overflow. With that all being said what would be the point of the "t" and the small hole drilled. Please forgive my ignorance but i do not understand the need for it.
QUOTE (Justin Streitler @ Nov 9 2008, 11:34 PM)
I have read just about everything I can, and i still dont understand what the point of the "t" with a hole drilled at top is for. My plan is for 1" bulkhead about 2" from bottom of tank, going to a 90 elbow to sump, with a gate valve inline. For a return I will have a mag5(trial) pumping up to two retruns(ball or gate valve on that if needed). My tank is going to have an internal center overflow, in my mind as long as i have enough empty area in my sump to take on water in a power outage, then the water lever drops below the overflow "teeth" level then now more water can enter into my overflow. With that all being said what would be the point of the "t" and the small hole drilled. Please forgive my ignorance but i do not understand the need for it.
Your post confuses me a bit.
First, how is the hole 2" up if your overflow is in the center? If you have a hole simply 2" up, then the water level in your tank will be 2" from the bottom, and I'm pretty certain you don't want that.
Also, putting a valve of any sort on your return line is a bad idea, unless you have a backup that can handle the full flow in an emergency. You must let gravity do the work at its own rate.
The hole in the "t" is to help with noise, If it is not present, there will often be a suctioning noise that repeats itself every few seconds, like a toilet flushing. It can be pretty loud and annoying. Air must have access to the tubing if this is to be prevented.
Its known as the "durso" method. If you can drill two holes and don't want the "T", do a search on the "herbie method". It works also.
HTH
sorry about the confusion, it is the herbie method im talking about here is a diagram of what i have planned.
Click to view attachment
Now what if you just had an elbow coming out of tank? What would be the need for the connections in the first picture?
Click to view attachment
Water would always be above the bulkhead, and if power outage happens, it would drain out the wier because there is no syphon action. Correct me if im wrong please.
Click to view attachment
Now what if you just had an elbow coming out of tank? What would be the need for the connections in the first picture?
Click to view attachment
Water would always be above the bulkhead, and if power outage happens, it would drain out the wier because there is no syphon action. Correct me if im wrong please.
I know the last post is a couple of months old but I thought I'd reply just for the heck of it. So directed at Justin's question, from my understanding of the Herbie method you do not need nor would you want the hole that exists in a durso. The entire point of the herbie method is to eliminate the noise that introduced air causes, and to slow the flow down not by air but by a valve. And I believe you are correct, you do just need to have enough room in the sump to handle the volume of water that would drain from the overflow in the event that the pump went out. However, the backup drain that the herbie method suggests is for the other scenario, which is if your main drain is somehow partially clogged and flow is reduced further than the valve thus flooding the display as the pump continues to transfer water from the sump. Another benefit of that backup drain seems to be keeping down the surface scum in the overflow box by draining it off whenever the water level reaches it.
Its been over seven months and I cant take this noise anymore. I have an external durso with a small hole on top. If I put a cap with no hole in it then the water is super silent and the water going to my sump isnt full of air.
I thought the hole was suppose to quiet the noise not create it. Can I just put a cap with no hole? I mean having an overflow the water will stop at the bottom of the teeth.
I thought the hole was suppose to quiet the noise not create it. Can I just put a cap with no hole? I mean having an overflow the water will stop at the bottom of the teeth.
Continuous siphon over flow ( like a CPR )
QUOTE (Fish @ Oct 7 2006, 05:20 AM)
Great work Tigah, very helpful diagrams too.
I would like to add though to anyone who is starting out, that using a stockman or durso design should only be done if you don't have a better alternative. If you are building a tank and are able to have two drain bulkheads, then the simplest and quietest way of getting water to your sump is the "Herbie method" (search on RC).
Baisically you don't use a standpipe at all on your drain - just a naked bulkhead. The diference is that you put a ball valve on the drain pipe to the sump and close the valve until the water is draining at the same rate as the pump is putting out. By opening and closing the valve a little bit you can adjust how high the water level is in your overflow box. For example. if the surface of the water is 7" above the bulkhead, there is no possible way that any air can go down the bulkhead and this equals zero noise. It also means no vacumes or venturies to mess with. Another advantage is that, because no air is getting into the sump, it is just as quiet as your overflow and will not boil or 'hot tub'. There is no noise or bubbles.
The second bulkhead is necessary to serve as an emergency drain if the primary ever got plugged. Put a standpipe on it and have the top of it up by the top of your tank. If the primary ever got plugged and the water level started to rise, it would just drain safely through this one. I had my setup for over a year and never had to adjust the ball valve and never had a blockage, but I still wouldn't risk running it without a back up drain.
Let me know if this doesn't make sense. I was fortunate enough to learn it early on in my reefing career and it might be the most useful piece of knowledge I have come across.
- Chad
I would like to add though to anyone who is starting out, that using a stockman or durso design should only be done if you don't have a better alternative. If you are building a tank and are able to have two drain bulkheads, then the simplest and quietest way of getting water to your sump is the "Herbie method" (search on RC).
Baisically you don't use a standpipe at all on your drain - just a naked bulkhead. The diference is that you put a ball valve on the drain pipe to the sump and close the valve until the water is draining at the same rate as the pump is putting out. By opening and closing the valve a little bit you can adjust how high the water level is in your overflow box. For example. if the surface of the water is 7" above the bulkhead, there is no possible way that any air can go down the bulkhead and this equals zero noise. It also means no vacumes or venturies to mess with. Another advantage is that, because no air is getting into the sump, it is just as quiet as your overflow and will not boil or 'hot tub'. There is no noise or bubbles.
The second bulkhead is necessary to serve as an emergency drain if the primary ever got plugged. Put a standpipe on it and have the top of it up by the top of your tank. If the primary ever got plugged and the water level started to rise, it would just drain safely through this one. I had my setup for over a year and never had to adjust the ball valve and never had a blockage, but I still wouldn't risk running it without a back up drain.
Let me know if this doesn't make sense. I was fortunate enough to learn it early on in my reefing career and it might be the most useful piece of knowledge I have come across.
- Chad
+ infinity. Best way to drain a tank if you can plan ahead.
I would just add that covering the overflow box or putting a strainer on it to prevent snails from crawling in is a must.
Heres my question.....I have a 55g.....and a hang on overflow...the siphon pipe is 1"...the stockman in 1 inch and the bulkhead is one inch....it is plumbed straight down to my sump.....I have a quietone 3000 its turned down halfway....and its fairly quiet.....Id like to open my return pump all the way (781gph) but when I do so my overflow cant keep up, water level in the back box goes up and down and gurgles irratically....I have the end cap pulled up and set ontop the stock man upside down right now cause it flows with little sound like that with the pump turned down halfway...heres my question how can i make my overflow box drainn more, Ive tried different size holes in the end cap, and nuthins working and remaining quiet
Its almost done i will post more when i am finished in about teo days. Siphon system works great
That looks scary. Why not just drill the tanks?
Has anyone tried the herbie method on a tank with 2 corner overflow boxes? Would you be able to control the water level in two seperate overflow boxes simultaneously. I am going to attempt this tomorrow unless anyone knows that it will not work.
I currently run a herbie, but not in 2 overflow boxes simultaneously. Each overflow box should have its own gate valve (and of course emergency standpipe). The gate valves should allow you to control the water levels in each respective overflow box.
Do you have a diagram Tigahboy ?
QUOTE (Tigahboy @ Aug 9 2009, 02:26 PM)
I currently run a herbie, but not in 2 overflow boxes simultaneously. Each overflow box should have its own gate valve (and of course emergency standpipe). The gate valves should allow you to control the water levels in each respective overflow box.
^^^This.
Just treat each overflow box like the other one does not exist.
QUOTE (PIPS @ Aug 9 2009, 02:28 PM)
Do you have a diagram Tigahboy ?
Here are three.
The first with strainers is probably the best way to go if you don't have a covered overflow box with fine teeth. The standpipe on the left is not really necessary at all, except as a way to make a strainer. However, if you have a large overflow box it will prevent that much volume from draining into your sump during a power outage.This method has been in use for way longer than some guy named "herbie" posted about it on RC, but whatever, the name has stuck.
Great diagrams, Wombat. My "herbie" is exactly as shown in your middle diagram, but with intake strainers added on top.
Wombat, did you make these diagrams yourself? If so, may I post them at the very top since it would be helpful to others. I was going to make some diagrams, but why reinvent the wheel right?
Also, I prefer to have the left standpipe closer to the top since the overflow box will be quieter as the water level is closer to the top of the box.
Wombat, did you make these diagrams yourself? If so, may I post them at the very top since it would be helpful to others. I was going to make some diagrams, but why reinvent the wheel right?
Also, I prefer to have the left standpipe closer to the top since the overflow box will be quieter as the water level is closer to the top of the box.
sorry to be such a newb , but why have 2 strainers ?
just to prevent snails and such from getting into the pipe and clogging it. Also to prevent your fish from ending up in the sump.
sorry i ment to say why have 2 pipes back to the sump compared to just one with a gate valve.
QUOTE (PIPS @ Aug 9 2009, 09:51 PM)
sorry i ment to say why have 2 pipes back to the sump compared to just one with a gate valve.
The second pipe is an emergency back-up and you want it situated higher than the standpipe with the gate valve. You DEFINITELY want the second standpipe.
Thing with the herbie is that it works as a siphon instead of a gravity overflow (i.e. durso or stockman). As such, the flow through rate can become more variable and subject to fluctuation. Moreover, because the gate valve is partially closed to raise the water level in the overflow box, (depending on how closed the gate valve is) it could be more susceptible to clogging.
My water level in my overflow box stays stable most of the time, but sometimes it does fluctuate and the water level rises. If it rises too high, it will hit the second emergency pipe and the pipe will be able to handle the excess flow from the main standpipe.
Hope that makes sense.
QUOTE (Tigahboy @ Aug 9 2009, 07:47 PM)
Great diagrams, Wombat. My "herbie" is exactly as shown in your middle diagram, but with intake strainers added on top.
Wombat, did you make these diagrams yourself? If so, may I post them at the very top since it would be helpful to others. I was going to make some diagrams, but why reinvent the wheel right?
Also, I prefer to have the left standpipe closer to the top since the overflow box will be quieter as the water level is closer to the top of the box.
Wombat, did you make these diagrams yourself? If so, may I post them at the very top since it would be helpful to others. I was going to make some diagrams, but why reinvent the wheel right?
Also, I prefer to have the left standpipe closer to the top since the overflow box will be quieter as the water level is closer to the top of the box.
Yes, feel free to use them and abuse them...I guess as long as there is some note that I drew them. Wouldn't want somebody making millions of dollars off of *my* 5 minute sketches in MS Paint!
I'm not following you on the standpipe bit...the water level in the box is determined by the right standpipe. The left standpipe (the one with the gate valve) should be flooded at all times, and the one on the right gets just a trickle of water. At least that's how I have run them...maybe you have a different way!
EDIT: Sounds like you balance it between the 2 standpipes--I was never able to get control that fine. I just dialed it so that the water level barely trickled into the higher standpipe.
QUOTE (PIPS @ Aug 9 2009, 09:51 PM)
sorry i ment to say why have 2 pipes back to the sump compared to just one with a gate valve.
Basically what Tigahboy said. Imagine your return pump is delivering (for example) 123 gph to your tank. Ideally, you set your gate valve on the left standpipe so that it is a narrow enough restriction to allow ~122 gph through the drain (accounting for all twists, turns, etc.). In practice this is really easy to do. You just turn your pump on, and then start closing the gate valve *slowly*. When the water starts slowly rising in your overflow box, you're there. Ideally, the standpipe on the right should be draining some water, how much doesn't really matter. A trickle is fine, the less the better, to make up for that extra 1 gph you need to drain.
As Tigahboy alluded to, there are all sorts of variables that can influence these numbers. When pumps first turn on they pump a little more volume, drain lines develop biofilms, tiny snails might get through the strainer, etc. You deal with this by slightly tweaking your gate valve, but you're not always around to do that...so, you need to have the capacity to drain just a few more gph every once in a while. You will definitely want to look into your overflow box every once in a great while and make sure things are copacetic back there...but if something is out of balance the noise it creates will let you know way before anything bad happens.
In terms of actual numbers, the left standpipe is 1" PVC, the right is 1/2" PVC, and this drained a 30g tank at approximately 700-800gph.
QUOTE (PIPS @ Aug 9 2009, 09:51 PM)
sorry i ment to say why have 2 pipes back to the sump compared to just one with a gate valve.
Okay, sorry if I'm blathering here but there IS a way to do this with just one standpipe. I did it inadvertently on a 50g SPS and clam tank, and it worked well.
I can't draw a diagram of it right now, but imagine placing a tee (inline) underneath the overflow box, between the bottom of the tank and the gate valve.
If the gate valve is open all the way, the tee acts as a venturi and sucks air in. If the gate valve is closed all the way, all the drained water will come flooding out the tee. So, play with the gate valve slowly to find that happy medium where just a tiny trickle of water comes out of the tee. Plumb it to the sump (or to a refugium), and voila, you've got an "emergency overflow". Any restriction at the gate valve will result in more water coming out of the tee.
Hope this helps,
Matt
QUOTE (wombat @ Aug 10 2009, 07:25 AM)
Yes, feel free to use them and abuse them...I guess as long as there is some note that I drew them. Wouldn't want somebody making millions of dollars off of *my* 5 minute sketches in MS Paint!
I'm not following you on the standpipe bit...the water level in the box is determined by the right standpipe. The left standpipe (the one with the gate valve) should be flooded at all times, and the one on the right gets just a trickle of water. At least that's how I have run them...maybe you have a different way!
EDIT: Sounds like you balance it between the 2 standpipes--I was never able to get control that fine. I just dialed it so that the water level barely trickled into the higher standpipe.
I'm not following you on the standpipe bit...the water level in the box is determined by the right standpipe. The left standpipe (the one with the gate valve) should be flooded at all times, and the one on the right gets just a trickle of water. At least that's how I have run them...maybe you have a different way!
EDIT: Sounds like you balance it between the 2 standpipes--I was never able to get control that fine. I just dialed it so that the water level barely trickled into the higher standpipe.
Thanks! Of course you will get credit in the first post as well.
Yes, I balance between the 2 standpipes. I found that it's quieter that way. But yes, most people have like 95% or so of the flow going down the main standpipe and the remaining 5% of the flow going down the higher standpipe.
But either way is way quieter than stockman or durso.
QUOTE (wombat @ Aug 10 2009, 07:45 AM)
Okay, sorry if I'm blathering here but there IS a way to do this with just one standpipe. I did it inadvertently on a 50g SPS and clam tank, and it worked well.
I can't draw a diagram of it right now, but imagine placing a tee (inline) underneath the overflow box, between the bottom of the tank and the gate valve.
If the gate valve is open all the way, the tee acts as a venturi and sucks air in. If the gate valve is closed all the way, all the drained water will come flooding out the tee. So, play with the gate valve slowly to find that happy medium where just a tiny trickle of water comes out of the tee. Plumb it to the sump (or to a refugium), and voila, you've got an "emergency overflow". Any restriction at the gate valve will result in more water coming out of the tee.
Hope this helps,
Matt
I can't draw a diagram of it right now, but imagine placing a tee (inline) underneath the overflow box, between the bottom of the tank and the gate valve.
If the gate valve is open all the way, the tee acts as a venturi and sucks air in. If the gate valve is closed all the way, all the drained water will come flooding out the tee. So, play with the gate valve slowly to find that happy medium where just a tiny trickle of water comes out of the tee. Plumb it to the sump (or to a refugium), and voila, you've got an "emergency overflow". Any restriction at the gate valve will result in more water coming out of the tee.
Hope this helps,
Matt
That's an interesting way of doing the "herbie." Thanks for all the info.
QUOTE (Tigahboy @ Aug 9 2009, 04:26 PM)
I currently run a herbie, but not in 2 overflow boxes simultaneously. Each overflow box should have its own gate valve (and of course emergency standpipe). The gate valves should allow you to control the water levels in each respective overflow box.
Sorry for the delay in response. The way that you are describing it is the way that I meant. So it is possible to run the herbie method on a tank with two corner overflows, as long as each overflow box has its own gate valve and back up drain. Is this correct? Thanks in advance for the help.
Yes.
Okay, I added the diagrams for the Herbie in my very first post of this thread. Thanks again, wombat!
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=623480
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=623480
thank you, i will try this, how do you do all this with the tank has water in it ?
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