The age old debate, do you use a protein skimmer? Vote in the poll.

Ughh I havent used one..Yet, but plan to do so. I have hesitated to buy one because I will be doing an upgrade and want to use that skimmer for the larger tank. I do need one right now though.

Hey there. I have used them in my store system (7ft tall) and on reef tanks over 40 gal. Currently I have a 24 nano and I am not even thinking of one. They pull out lot's of good stuff, which one ends up having to replace them. Water changes are more than adequit.

I run an AquaC Remora 24/7 on my 29 Show. I have ran all my previous tanks w/ out a skimmer before, and I never new how unclear the water realy was

Sweet pics...skimmers are great when you got a heavy load...too
many corals excrete "toxic slime" and so skimmers come in real handy.

What pictures?

Yeah, Skimmers help take out the Toxins and other nasties that we can't test for. I have read many posts where peoples corals, fish and Inverts where dieing, even though all of there basic params where perfect, or close to perfect.

I have never run a skimmer until recently when I added a AquaC Remora. I thought the weekly water changes were enough, until I saw what the skimmer is pulling out of the tank. The water also looks much clearer.

A very good investment.



Bob

wouldn't run any tank without a skimmer since i saw how much crap is pulled outta the water column.

reef-luva- what "good stuff" do skimmers pull out of your tank?

Everyday 1/4 of a cup of smelly sewage is made from my skimmer.

I run an AquaC Urchin 24/7 on my 40G - I wouldn't think of running it without it.

....benificial organic and inorganic trace elements.
They can be "too" efficient, if that makes any sense.
For me, my experience tells me smaller the reef...less is more.
Don't over crowd (which is really hard) keep the ammonia down, constant(but small)water changes. Big systems...larger margin of error...nano's, very small margin. For me.... thats all.

Travis...is that your 29 gal show?

...naturally... the tank has it's own balance. The more we pull out, the more adjustments need to be made. If you run a skimmer 24/7, especially during/right after adding "expensive" additives,
your not only wasting time and money but there is no true way to measure the elements lost. Skimmers than run "wet", meaning a lot of water, not just scum in the cup, are examples of this. They also can throw off the P.H. Nothing's free in life kids, every toy has a price. Skimmers need to be constantly "tweeked" to obtain maximum performance. Too much work for me and my little nano.

lol. "beneficial organic and inorganic trace elements"...you sound like you're avoiding the question good sir.

honestly though, what beneficial organic and inorganic trace elements are being pulled out of your tank by protein skimming?

I used a skilter

mmm...skilters...the 'skimmers' of champions.

I'm glad you find me funny Yoshiod.
To answer your question:
calcium,
magnesium,
strontium,
amino acids
and important micro algea's essential for growth and balance.
To name some....
I have been in this hobby for well over twenty years,
I've seen plenty come and go.
Owned a fish store for a while...so you could say
that I have an opinion.
Everyone knows when you skim, you have to add more.
Well, most people.
I just like mini's to be simple. no skimmer.

I run a euro-reef skimmer rated for a 100gal on my 40gal system...

havn't had any problems so far. Skimmers might remove some good things, but from my experience it seems like it'd be hard ot over skim.

Has any one ever read an analysis on skimate that showed that a, b and c were in it that the tank needs? Something like that would be good to read.

well I only have a 10g fowlr and I thought that perhaps a PS may help so I made the rookie mistake of buying a cheap one, won't say which one b/c I am embarrased, but now I have a $60 powerhead. I had the PS running for about 2 days and could not get it to flow correctly b/c it was an internal and had to be cut to fit. Needless to say the whole thing was a waste of time, money and it cost me my yellow tailed blue damsel

wow, ok, i'm just a little perturbed by your opinion though. lol. instead of being a jerk and flaming you, i think it would be better for you to read about the myth of over-skimming and find out what can and cannot be taken out of the water column by protein skimming.

btw...longevity isn't corollary with knowledge. just because you've been in the hobby for well over twenty years doesn't mean that you are a pro. hell, i've been playing soccer for 17 years, that doesn't make me a pro. (the previous statement was a joke...so don't think i was being a jerk!)

anyway, here's a link for you to read...
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...E+over+skimming

it deals with the thought that people can skim calcium, magnesium and whatnot out of their water column when, in actuality, those elements are more than likely being used up by the tank inhabitants...not being skimmed out. check it out...it's a good read.

I just got a SeaClone100 *dodges thrown bottles* and its doing a great job on my 10g.

--Dan

I have my seaclone sitting somewhere... Might've even been tossed in the trash... I have a Remora w/ a MJ1200 on the back of my 20L and I love it. I'll recommend it until the day I die for small tanks that need serious cleaning. I keep my acros happy... Must be doing something right! It runs from about 7am - 11pm (aka the hours I'm usually awake) since it's a couple meters from my bed and loud as all get-out.

Seaclones are so bad... I have had nothing but bad luck with them.

just my experience though.

The "myth" artilce linked to in the post Yoshid posted seems to suggest that over skimming is possable.

What do you guys think?

: I tough out the noise

--Dan

lol. cloudy...sorry...stanley read the entire thread bud. borneman is basing his idea that over skimming is possible on an incomplete analysis...(which he states in the first sentence or so!). read reefer_buddha(diydude)'s explanation..."Borneman states in the first sentence "I still feel there is too little information on exactly what, how much, and how effectively foam fractionation affects various components of the water column of reef aquaria." So he's basing the article on unknown or incomplete research.

Well i have problems with borneman's conclusion that its not good to have a "constantly stripped" water column. If thats the case then people should discontinue use of refugiums, skimmers, phosphate socks, carbon and the like. What he fails to mention is that everything (as i stated before!) isnt left IN the water column.

The only things that would be removed from the water column are: 1) associated with "bad things" that were trying to get rid of. Example, some molecules might be complexed with fatty acids or phospholipids......those would be removed by skimming, but who's to say that those molecules are even "bioavailable" when complexed?. 2) Another type of molecule that might be effected (not necessarily removed) by skimming would be something that can easily be oxidized (i.e. iodine/iodide)."

overskimming is, generally, impossible.

Haha... Those are just two of my many alter-egos. Nah... really i've only got the two, I started using my first name on this other forum and I kind of like it, so sue me (just not with tigah, I hear he's good). heh...

I read through the thread, I agree with you Yosh-...

I just don't have the background or data to speak to any borneman's claims. I have never had any problems with over-sized skimmers, just healty tanks that seem to tolerate my errors well. Just wanted to see how you or others would adress the issues he raises.

my guess is that we are not able to produce shore-like water without a skimmer... waves produce foam, oxigyze (sp) the water etc... in my opinion nanos without skimmers are just like tidepools, seperate micro-cosmos without much relation to the sea and coral reefs... from time to time they get some fresh water and so, but they are not really a reef in my understanding... just my .02$

You are absolutley right Yoshiod. The animals take up alot!! That's why I don't skim a nano. I apologize if I sounded short. I am NO where
near a pro, I am always leaning. This hobby is always changing with different things coming up all the time and some things never change though. I have maintained a 5 to a 400 gal reef... all I said is that I have a lot of experience, never said I was a pro.(please re-read my post's "pro" was never used)Thank you for the link, I love to read new stuff!! Yoshiod, I hope your a good soccer player after so many years though aye?

Like I stated...skimmers are "good tools" at times great ones.
There are many great toys out there (no reason to list them...)
They all take "extra" work and time. I like my nano "tidepool"
(thanks Burnah)... remember this hobby was started along time ago,
without "skimmers". Can any body remember those days?
I guess I'm the only one here not skimming nano's...sweet.....

lol. reef-luva, i think you're definitely going to be known as gramps by me from now on.

skimmers are great tools...i think that they are not always justifiable for small tanks(if you're on top of your water changes, you definitely don't need one for a nano...unless you're going for a nutrient starved sps tank...in which case i recommend one). but for the most part, reefers seem to be lazy and having a skimmer allows them the chance to flub a bit with their water changes... not saying that i do that...but people i know do...

...lazy is right...take it from "gramps"...
has any body seen my cane?.....

"The Con's of Skimming

Here are some of the consistent comments about going without a skimmer:
1) removes desirable nutrients
2) too large and make too much noise
3) require additional plumbing or don't fit well with certain systems
4) it's an unnecessary expense if you are consistent with water changes, light stocking and not overfeeding
5) creates microbubbles in the tank
6) possible oxidation of sensitive molecules (one poster listed iodine)
7) some ricordia/zoanthids prefer a small amount of DSO's".....

A quote from another thread... I am NOT alone!!!

Yeah, it's my tank

GREAT tank!...nice rock!

Thanks

well i use a Prizm HOB skimmer that works quite well, its good help for me as sometimes i get too stressed and forget to do water change
but i run it almost on max flow and the foam is pretty dry and i dont have any problems with microbubbles, inhabitants seem to be doing just great

Never used one before

I used this really cool skimmer on my nano, I called it water changes!!!! LOL HAHA...I did change 3 gallons per week in my nano 12g when I had it. I was religious about it and never had to use any sort of mechanical skimmer...Not to say it wouldn't have helped, but it really wasn't necessary. My 50t is a different story however...I use an ASM G1-X and it works great...It is dialed low, so I am not pulling a ton of stuff out daily, but what it pulls out consistantly is muck!!! Not watery junk, but thick and nasty garbage that stinks!!

To touch on what was mentioned by reef-luva, skimmers can take out beneficial nutrients. Such manufacturers of fine reef foods like DT's state to not use a skimmer while feeding Oyster Eggs...Now why would they say not to skim if it was safe to do so without removing the foods...You just have to find the happy medium between under and over skimming!!! Good luck to all!!!

they say to not skim when you add foods because the oyster eggs are TINY protein based substances that adhere to the microbubbles your skimmer produces... that has nothing to do with removing beneficial nutrients. if you're feeding your tank, you're feeding your tank...all pumps and water movement devices should be off. that's just normal operating procedure.

blah...this is such a useless argument though. lol. protein skimming is VERY helpful. please, please, can someone back me up here on the whole you cannot overskim debacle?! i know i'm not the only one who doesn't believe that mumbo jumbo.

You cannot over skim.

Got ya back yoshiod.

haha.

....hmmmm? Is it possible that skimmers are good AND bad....
without being one OR the other....hhmmmm? For many systems/people
(over crowded...lazy...) skimmers are irreplacable.
For others, they are a source of constant tweeking and are not needed.
Sorry you can't understand this yoshiod....
but it IS ok to have either/both opinions....

/applause

Exactly. I prefer to have a lightly stocked tank and do regular water changes. I find that given those conditions, a skimmer is an unnecessary expense. This does not mean, however, that I think skimmers are "bad" or "useless." This hobby is as much of an art as it is a science. Find what works with you, run with it and don't look back.

...extended applause ktownhero....
I like the "art" comment, there is no better way to say it.
"Dont look back...", I guess I understand what you mean....
but after 23 years in the hobby (thats as old as yoshiod is...)
I keep looking EVERYWHERE.... I love to learn new things.
Yoshiod, don't take this so personally....like I told you, I have owned MANY skimmers (7inches to 7feet)in the correct application they are great....their just not needed in EVERY application. END

I'm with you yoshi...where is RB, onthefly, MrA, and the others when you need them..LOL...I think this starts up everytime someone mention's the word SKIMMER..LOL..

currently I am not skimming my 10 gal but in two weeks when I switch over to a 20L I will be using a CSS 65 (coralife needle wheel skimmer)

...I'm done....stick a fork in me...hahahahaha

lol. reef-luva, the only problem i have with this whole skim/don't skim debacle is that many people believe that an efficient skimmer will overskim...i don't have a problem with people choosing to skim or choosing not to skim.

i know that you don't have to run a skimmer on tanks...i didn't run one on my 6 and 10 because i was keeping lps/softies(which actually do better in nutrient rich water)...so, i'm not having a problem understanding you can or can't run a skimmer... just having a problem making sure people understand you cannot overskim, that's all.

If you take too much 'stuff' (nutrients, organincs, etc) out the water and the removal of the stuff effects your inhabitants negatively then that is overskimming.
Like people have said (yoshiod9), some corals and other lifeforms prefer more enriched water than others so overskimming is down t the individual setup and how much it needs - more or less - its a fine line or bubble tower in this case

I have skimmed and other times I have not. Personally skimming with a small basic skimmer is far better than the new age turbo powered powered ones that remove way too much out of the water so IMO overskimming is also dependant on the skimmer itself. Its what it takes and the quantity, not to skim or not to skim. Just choose wisely and relevantly.

I partially agree. I always try to skim, but under-do it a bit. Still helps with algae, but I dont want EVERYthing to be gone. Many of my soft corals would appreciate me not skimming, and the SPS want me to skim. I compromise.

I got one on my five gallon and it works great

I have a 4 month old 10g running with an UGF and a cheesy Skilter. The Skilter NEVER has collected anything. I'm not sure if that means that the Skilter really just IS that cheesy, or that the water quality is as good as my tests consistantly show. Either way, I haven't seen a need for a PS.

I ran a 20 for 4 yrs with no skimmer just fine. I uprgraded to a 29 and added a skimmer and I was amazed (still am) at how much crap that thing pulls out of the water. After going from no skimmer to a skimmer I can definitely tell a difference in water quality and the like...