I just acquired a 40B and I would like to do a corner overflow with herbie-style drain and a back return.

I've briefly looked here: http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...p;#entry2890605

My questions:

1. What size holes do I need for the drain and the backup?
2. What size hole for the return?
3. What pump recommendations? (I'll be running an MP40 for the main tank flow)
4. What plumbing parts do I need to pull this whole thing off and where's the best place to get them?

I'm a total noob with tank plumbing, so any help is appreciated.

Bump

What size holes do I need for the drain and the backup?

1.) To start there is a relationship between drain size & flow rate. Flow rate is acheaved by the height of the water line above the drain, combined with the size of the drain. I.e. The more water & the larger the drain, the greater the flow.

2.) How much flow is wanted through the sump/fuge. There are great debates over what is the ideal flow, but a fuge needs a high dwell time for nutrient transfer. So maby, as much as it pains me to use the term, 5xthe size of the fuge for turn over. Flow can be met by powerheads. Simple sumps have no limitations on there flow behyond micro bubbles, heaters, & skimmer performance.

In the over flow thread there I have a link to a flow rate calculater. I'll see if I can add the link here with the blackberry if not will do later.

3.) More than likely it will be either a 3/4" or a 1" drain, pearsonaly I like to use the same size drain for both drains. But here's that relationship coming back. As you move the drain closer to top of the tank, the less flow it can handle. So the backup has to be able to handle grater flow than the primary if & when the the drain clogs (Yes the drain will clog). This helps to set where the drains will be Placed. The distance between, height within the overflow, & so on. The back up needs to be low enough to drain while still not having the overflows water line go above the weir (you knew I'd work it in there some how, fancy word for were the water flows over). While the primary needs to have enough distance between its self & the backup to be fully submerged with out creating a vortex sucking bubbles into the drain (that's what makes noise).

4.) When drilling tanks. There needs to be, at minimum, the diamiter of the hole between the hole & the edge of the panle being drilled. This is the minimum to not crack the glass. More is better.

So figure out how much you want through the sump/fuge. Then put the backup as close to the weir as you can & still achive this flow. Then put the main as low as you can with out cracking the tank. Set water line in overflow with ball valve or gate valve.




What size hole for the return?


1.) This will most likely be the same as the output of the pump. Would expect 1/2" or 3/4".

2.) 3/4" or 1" return plumbing can be split then reduced to 1/2" as it enters the tank.

3.) Without siphion brakes, or other messures to prevent backflow. The tank will drain to these returns when the pump is shut down.



What pump recommendations? (I'll be running an MP40 for the main tank flow)

1.) Normally the least expensive to run. I hate spending money I didn't need to.
I run quiet one pumps for this reason. But to be dead silent eheim is supose to be the best. Untill you steep up to exo's like iwaki (the pretty japaness one) or gen x (the knock off)

2.) Eductor nozzles can reduce the size of pump needed to reach a set flow rate without effecting the drains. (Free flow)

3.) Never reduce the flow to a pump this will cause the pump to cavatate (bubbles).

4.) When picking the pump remember to judge it not only on flow rate but head.




What plumbing parts do I need to pull this whole thing off and where's the best place to get them?


1.) Welcome to the never ending trips to homedepot. Most plumbing will be found at the local box store. Speicalty items like bulkheads will be at the lfs.

2.) Peaces parts
Vynal tubing
Hose barb fittings (sevral types. 90? Mpt for the main, reg mpt's for most everything else)
A couple feet pvc
Teflon tape (this is your new best friend. Use a lot & once you have tightend the fitting will need to be replased if lossened)
Bulkheads & screens (no open pipes)
Pvc solvent
90 elbows & other pvc parts
Ball valves/gate valves
Quick conects/true unions


3.) Air leaks cause asperation (bubbles) make sure to have all joints sealed tight






There are pics of my old ten x ten in my tank thread & more info on water in my sig.

Hope this helps. Pm me when there's more questions.

Oh ps a hartford loop is much like the plumbing that leaves a skimmer. The water flows uptwo a tee were the bubbles can exit. While the flows back down from the tee. I'll see if I can find a pic.

Let's see if this works.

http://www.grow.arizona.edu/Grow--GrowReso...?ResourceId=188

Ok so found a pic of the hratford loop hopefully the link will work.

http://www.nhtres.com/images/loop.jpg

WOW bitts. Nice write up.

Dag bitts, I'm going to post your post in the sticky too. Amazing - thanks so much for the help!

For the record, you're talking about drilling on the back wall, right? Not the bottom? (I should probably drill the back wall anyways now that I'm thinking about it).

Corect back wall for drilling. But same apllys for stand pipes from the bottom.

is there a benefit of one over the other? back wall vs. stand pipes?

Bottom will normally be tempered before the sides, due to weight & pressure points. But always check to see be for drilling. Sometimes they do it the other way. Planing for some to be drilled & sold as reef ready. As the joke goes if its tempered and you drill it you'll know it.

As to benefit. Stand pipes allow the tank to be placed closer to the wall. Functionally not much. When put through the back the overflow can be smaller.

yeah, it's a standard 40B like you'd get at Petco.

for the back, do you mean this?

Click to view attachment

sorry for the attachment - photobucket doesn't work at my office for some stupid reason.

pics of the diy herbie





drains are 1" controlled by ball valve below.


these are pics of my old ten x ten


with a 40 they can be spaced further apart.

sweet. thanks man.

AGA 40b don't have a tempered bottom, but you can check the manufacturers site, they usually have that information. But if it were me I'd drill the back.

here is what I did:

Left: Main drain
Right: Emergency

Here is the back:


Kind of a modified Bean (look on rc) style with a little Herbie thrown in.
Oh and I used 1.5" just to be on the cautious side.

yeah, looks like 40B isn't tempered bottom. I might do a standpipe because I really want to hide as much plumbing as possible.

so i'm thinking 1" bulkheads with standpipes in the back left corner with a tall black acrylic overflow box.

Do eeet! The problem with my setup is it pushes the tank about 8-10" from the wall. Plus with the plumbing you can completely enclose the stand for minimal noise.

One thing to think of with the overflow box: make sure there is enough room to fit your hand in. An often overlooked part of the planning.

ah yeah - really good point. i'll have to measure my hand, lol.

You know what they say about guys with big hands................................................big gloves!

that rule doesn't apply to me.

The other options for overflow would be coast to coast or exo. Every one pretty well knows my vote.

haha...i don't. what's your vote?

i'm guess exo, but i don't know what that is...

cant seem to find a pic. but its a coast to coast on the backside/outside of the tank. making the weir longer than other methods, too maximize skimate and surface skimming. Instead of drilling holes you cut a weir in the panel. returns can be plumbed through this area to prevent leaks being as problomatic.

sounds advanced, lol.

you mean fun.

doing the corner overflow is probably what i would recommend. the way you described it is a very solid build. yes there needs to be room to fit a hand & retive snails, crabs, filter screens that have clogged. that was the thing i hated about my ten. how ever glass may be easier to build with.

I'm gonna see if I can get someone to make one for me. If not, then I'll get some glass cut and krylon fusion it.

or you could leave it clear, but use black pvc pipes.

black PVC is a given anyways, lol. not that it'll matter much.

with it being a 40 a 6 x 4 overflow wouldent take up to much room, but it would give you a 10 inch weir.

6"x4"? and what's a weir? i'm such a freakin' NOOB! lol.

its were the water flows over the wall into the overflow. the longer the better.

oh, so you're saying space the holes far apart and have a longer overflow for better skimming?

exactly thats why i like the exo & coast to coast. like my exo has a 20 inch weir on a 29 gallon tank. as the weir increasses the flow at any one point over it is reduced.

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/overflow.html

http://www.podzilla.us/aquascapeDS/overflow/overflow.html













Or just do a search for a Calfo coast to coast overflow

Exo's IMHO while being more work are preferable, due too the need for space inside the tank & a cleaner look. But as I said before the corner overflow that was brought up earlier is a solid build. A coast to coast can be added to it with out much work if this is tempting. Also with out having to hold the drans the size can be greatly reduced, making for a much cleaner tank.

Ok, so let me recap and post some supplies options and see if I'm on the right track:

Tank: 40B
Drains: 1" bulkhead with standpipes and strainers drilled on the bottom in the back left corner. Gate valve on main drain.
Overflow box: custom black acrylic, wide enough for my hand, full tank height.
Return: 300gph pump?, 1/2"-3/4" bulkhead, depending on return pump output, on back of tank. Flex tubing, hose barb, loc-line.
Sump: 20H (i'm fighting a 20L - the only reason I want 20H is so I can fit my ATO reservoir in the stand with the sump).

So, how are we doing?

If that looks good I'm gonna go ahead and place an order.

looks good, mostly I would add the location of the siphon break. thus planning for the back flow, just to not forget about it.

pump may not need to be 300ish, could maybe do an ehiem 1048 and save on power needs & heat. depends on head pressure.

one thing about acrylic is that its ability to bond to glass is low when siliconed (if any). this is why i brought up glass. abs would be better or acrylic with glass supporting. also a good silicone. check nano pauls thread for info, but either dow 999a or dow 795 would be my go to for this.


yeah looks good, pull trigger.

you sure the eheim 1250 isn't better? it's gonna have about 4-5' head (that sounds familiar, snicker).

and what do you mean about the glass? what's abs? you're saying I should get glass cut for the overflow, yes? anywhere do colored glass? i like the idea of a black overflow.

and when you say location of the siphon break, what do you mean?

I really appreciate all the help, man. It's good stuff.

you sure the eheim 1250 isn't better? it's gonna have about 4-5' head (that sounds familiar, snicker).

it would be one of the 2 depending on the head, my thought was more to not overlook the smaller pump if it would work. with an mp 40 the return pump could be at a trickle and it wont matter.


and what do you mean about the glass? what's abs? you're saying I should get glass cut for the overflow, yes? anywhere do colored glass? i like the idea of a black overflow.

silicone bonds very well when its glass to glass, but acrylic will have a weak bond that will later leak.
if running acrylic put it over glass. glass for strenght & acrylic for looks (stick the acrylic overflow to the glass overflow. maybe see if they could bend a small bit forming a lip so it could hang over the glass. being removable to clean). could use black glass from glass shop. abs sheet would be like what they call starboard that is used in barebottom setups or cutting boards. google abs sheet.

yeah overflows look best when black.


and when you say location of the siphon break, what do you mean?

if the outlet of the return is below the water line. then when the pumps are powered down water will siphon back to the sump unless theres a siphon break (small hole) for air to stop it (break siphon).

I really appreciate all the help, man. It's good stuff.
no worrys this is the fun part, who cares about fish.

where would I put a small hole for the siphon break? in the locline? the piping?

Inside the tank. The higher in the water colume the less back flow there will be. Just get it low enouhg to not cause bubbles. If the returns are through the back wall then it will most likely be at this point. Drill a small hole in the locline the screws into the bulkhead. There are other ways that can keep the waterline higher. Just depends on how much you like plumbing. My 29 has antisiphon towers that keep the siphon brake above the waterline, so there's no backflow.

bah, meant to post this here:

o hai, i'm plumbing out the back. just changed where i'm putting the tank in the apt, lol.

arrhhh...bitts, i'm going back and forth about drilling the bottom v. the back. what do you recommend?

Also, I think I'm gonna order from McMasterCarr for some stuff (cheaper) and marine depot (i have a gift cert) and also glass-holes.com . Someone check this parts list (part numbers included) and let me know if I'm on the right track:

• Gate valve for primary drain: 1" NPT Threaded #97865K33, http://www.mcmaster.com/#pvc-gate-valves/=7pen6d (this one is $8 cheaper than Marine Depot, and surely 150psi is enough).
  
• 10' Black PVC Vinyl Tubing (Food grade), Inner Diameter 1" #5231K93, http://www.mcmaster.com/#vinyl-tubing/=7perqi
  
• 2 hose barbs 1" NPT Threaded for 1" ID Hose, #5218K47, http://www.mcmaster.com/#barbed-hose-fittings/=7petx1
  
• 1 90* pvc fitting (female NPT) for emergency drain.
  
• 2 1" standard double threaded bulkheads: http://www.glass-holes.com/1-Bulkhead-thre...ad-bh100txt.htm
  
• 2 threaded 1" strainers: http://www.glass-holes.com/1-2-inch-Bulkhe...ead-bh05txt.htm
  
  
  For the return:
  
  
• 10' Black PVC Vinyl Tubing, ID 1/2", #5231K89
  
• 1 hose barb 1/2", #5218K35 http://www.mcmaster.com/#barbed-hose-fittings/=7pf4cz
  
• 1 90* elboc 1/2", #4596K12 http://www.mcmaster.com/#pvc-pipe-fittings/=7pf531
  
• 1 1/2" standard double threaded bulkhead: http://www.glass-holes.com/1-2-inch-Bulkhe...ead-bh05txt.htm
  
• Loc-line 1/2" check valve: http://www.marinedepot.com/Loc_Line_1_2_in...IFTLLHI-vi.html
  
• Loc-line 1/2" nozzle http://www.marinedepot.com/Loc_Line_1_2_in...IFTLLHI-vi.html
  
• Loc-line 1/2" ball socket http://www.marinedepot.com/Loc_Line_1_2_in...IFTLLHI-vi.html

I'm also getting the Eheim 1250 (ouch budget): http://www.marinedepot.com/Eheim_Universal...IWPSBUF-vi.html

Alright is there anything I am missing?

And some of the pieces are Schedule 80 PVC - could I drop to S. 40 and be ok?

Ok so from what I can see looks pretty good. the check valve has me worried, they fail at an alarming rate.



Every thing on that list except the locline, bulkheads, & strainers, Well the pump as well, Should be available from the box store (home depot, lowe's) in the plumbing isle. Oh wait they don't have gate valves.



I like my plumbing behind the tank, seems easier to setup. It pushes the tank out from the wall though.



Pertty sure all of my stuff is 40 so it should be fine.



That pump is well pricy, but you'll love it.