We all have stories about how terrible our local fish store is or we know someone who deals with a less than perfect local fish store. We have discussed the dealings of LFS' here on nano-reef many times and the general concensus is, "Don't listen to your LFS." By now many of you should be able to recognize a reputable fish store when you find one, which is what this week's topic is all about.

How do you know the LFS you are dealing with is trustworthy and is providing you with the best possible livestock and advice? Give us some tips on asking the kinds of questions that will let you know if the employees know their stuff. What do you look for when viewing the livestock? Tank conditions? Overall livestock health? How about prices compared to online shopping.

So what do you look for in a LFS?

Well, if you were to boycott every place that had poor conditions for livestock or gave bad advice, you wouldn't be able to shop anywhere.

For me, LFS A keeps Tangs in 10g, so I don't buy fish there, but I do buy their corals. LFS B has crappy livestock but has a great selection of equipment, so I buy my pieces and parts there. And so on. It's not ideal, but I don't want to have to mail order everything.

Also, I never ask for advice at ~any~ LFS, or if I do, I assume it has a 50% chance of being wrong.

i've found that even if a lfs is reputable (because of the owner or resident expert) it doesn't mean it's always reputable. other employees and mis-interpretations (lfs AND customer). it isn't always the lfs that's the problem but their inherent profit-motive does make it a difficult situation.

whenever i see where the lfs is selling an all-inclusive 'startup kit' that raises a red-flag for me. or when i see a customer loaded up with everything on their initial trip. (sometimes this is the dumb shopper tho)

livestock conditions also point to the training and suppliers of the lfs, quality and care. a store that allows 'buy now, pickup later' gets bonus points with me.

a critical piece i always look for is reading material. if they don't carry books or trade mags i relegate them to a lower/middle tier automatically. the ones that know what they're doing aren't afraid to have the books out there to let the customer buy and double-check the lfs's spoutings of 'wisdom'. altho i understand the hesitancy of putting the mags out tho. (competition from ols and their much cheaper pricings)

go multiple times to the store. the answer you receive from different people there should match, if they're trained correctly or know what they're talking about. double-check their answers with others (stores, online, print, other shoppers/hobbyists, etc.). hth

I think that places that quarantine new arrivals, dont order "unkeepable" stuff (goniopora, BRO, etc..), have frags, and books are good signs. I generally take their advice as a grain of salt and prefer books/internet for info. If possible, i think that going multiple times over a period will give you and idea of how their livestock does (stress-wise) and when they get their new shipments. Personally, I hate stores that are dark, dirty, and dusty too.

yeah it does depend on the employee and such. i know a place called Aquatic Warehouse and they are always praised for having great selection, but the other day i was by there and i saw in every tank a dead fish. it was depressing. i would of done something because first timers would see that and might not return.

i always research from nano-reef.com or reefcentral.com before buying stuff at LFS. i never go to a LFS unprepared. the best sources are from forums like these.

Looking for dead fish in the tank is good, just because I feel like if its dead and the workers are paying attention to the tanks they would remove it. If they have good frags and in what condition do they sell there live rock. I'm not about to pay $7.99 a lb for something that had obviously been sitting on a doc for 1/2 a day in the sun. I went to a new Lfs today and was suprised when I asked about zoos and his color selection he said to come in on thursday because he should have some nano sized pieces with better color for the same price as the blah ones he had in the tank today.

I try to avoid any lfs until i absolutely have to go there. Maybe for simple things like salt and snails but other than that i either order it online or diy it myself. Ive found the best service and corals from a local guy that runs it from his house and his corals/fish and rock blow away any lfs plus he's been doing it for years. I dont like dealing with kids at petco that i see load up newbs with unnecessary junk that they can do without.

If i were to watch for signs of a good/bad lfs i would say watch for their advice and if it conflicts with what's said on here then take it with a grain of salt.

Look for dead fish in a tank , if so, dont even touch the sand in that tank.

Make them feed a fish you want before you buy it.

Ask about their return policy.

Ask if they acclimate new fish and corals, if not ask them why not.

Ask them if a discus does well at 1.025 gravity , if they say either "yes" or "i duno" guess what..time to find a new lfs.

Ask a lot of questions that you know the answers to.

I always ask if the employee has a tank and, if so, what type of setup, livestock, age, etc.


I will typically ask a few loaded questions about some of the livestock without trying to sound like a complete idiot. (IE: ask about the dendroneptheya, not about a tang in a nano).

All of the above, plus a professional appearance. There's one shop here in DSM that's got it nailed. Great looking store, great looking tanks, and the owner knows her stuff really well. She's very conscientious about what she's selling to whom.

As a result, the rest of the reefers in town visit her store on a very regular basis. I feel I can trust what I buy in her store. Don't get the same feeling in other stores here in town.

The store must have clean tanks and healthy livestock. They must have reasonable prices. They must use MH lighting to show that they know what good lighting is. They must show basic understanding of the hobby by supplying cleanup crew other than Astreas.

I will not ask advice of an employee unless he/she also owns their own reef. Usually I ask if they have a picture of their tank and they pull it out for bragging rights. I ask that employee if they sell their own frags at the store, and when they walk me over to it and start telling my its life story, I will trust that person's recommendations.

After wroking in the in diffrent parts of the fish industry for almost 10 years I have to say that doing that will make who every is helping you not want to.

What I look for are tanks that are "clean" but not purfect. For exmaple all of us have tanks and home and you know that there is not such thing as a algee free tank. If thier tanks seem to good to be true, its like every thing else that is too good to be true-- ITS NOT. What I am trying to say is I want to see functioning eco systems. Alot of your larger stores ( I mean in #'s sold ) realy don't have to do water changes-- the're done every time some thing is sold.

As for hard goods I almost always use online/mail order. Not so much for price but for selection and the # they have in stock.

for me it's appearance of the tanks first and foremost. Any fish store with half eaten fish in the tanks is a store where the fish are being left unattended. a dead fish is not the worst thing in the world. it happens to us all. Leaving it in the tank for an extended period of time is like leaving a pile of crap on the floor of a car in the showroom floor.

I also talk to the sales help or the owner if they are around. Nice to get a feel for the store, the help and the quality of help being offered.

Pet peeve: mis-labeled and mis-spelled ID's, unless the items are mis-marked with a ridculously low price (ie: premium croce clams for $24.95).

Inconsistency in pricing with good livestock means you have the opportunity to get a deal, but chances are, the thing youwant is the thing that is most grossly overpriced.

i agree with tiny. every store is going to have good and bad employees. i look for the most knowledgeable and fair person to deal with. if you can forge a good relationship with a local fish vendor than that will be worthwhile in many ways...heads up on new livestock, specials, getting in on the ordering, holding specimens...etc.

while i like reasonable prices, they don't always point to a 'good' lfs ime. and the best lfs i've seen (on average, good days and bad) runs only vho lighting.

don't judge the LFS on one visit if you do you are just limiting yourself to a first impression or just the impression recieved by the person or people you spoke w/

things i like is a fish Guarantee. that right there tells me they are proud of what they sell

i like a wide variety of dry goods like a choice of salt brands or filter brands or even light manufacures as well as chemicals

do they even have in stock or sell the lights that are required for reef tanks

a good selection of fresh water and marine fish

do they buy back fish even if they don't pay much but they take em in and give store credit w/o reciept

food what selection of live or frozen foods agian a varity of brands not just foods

and if you ask an advanced question and they person is unsure or dosen't know tells you they don't and offers some other means to get that info sell you a book or refer you to come back on a day when the expert is in.

and when the feel of the store is quality not quantity

i personally do not mind paying 10-20% more to get what i want the first time or to know what i am buying is healthy

lastly if i want something and i ask for and they don't have it do they have the ability to specially order in something within reason

The smartest person one can deal with is not just the one who admits their knowledge limitation, but takes initiative in pointing you in the right direction.

For beginners: Staff that can accurately explain the nitro cycle, test your water and explain the results. Sounds too simple, but so many places get it wrong and it's key for beginners to understand this.

For advanced hobbyists: Being able to special order and answer advanced questions.

ANY lfs: A reasonable selection of *quality* books. An associate who answers a question should not be afraid to show you which book to double check their info in. Stores who acclimate their livestock well. Stores that are fine having you come when they get their fish load. Will let you cherry pick their salt bags but for most things would prefer you wait a couple days until they have any travel mortalities (we all know it happens). And if the associate doesn't know the answer they can tell you who does or how to find it.

I look for knowledge and morality. If I see a salesperson selling a fish dusted with ick or a clam to a guy without even asking about the lighting, I question their ethics. Good stores will put up signs about the husbandry requirements of a species. One of the local guys who sold me my first marine tank fifteen years ago was the Dr. Phil of fish and reefkeeping. He would keep a mental tally of the fish I had already bought and keep me from overstocking. He would chastise me when I told him about my lax maintenance, etc. I still buy livestock from him and he still questions my decisions (mostly to find out what I'm up to now).

All stores will have problems from time to time even if they quarantine and new guys that don't know whats going on (there just aren't many knowledgeable folks out there). You have to talk to everyone you can and find out who "your guy" is. I am lucky in that there are a number of "good guys". All of them have slightly different philosophies and recommendations, but there are just a couple who fit my personality. It's hard to trust someone you just don't like. Arrogance will get you nowhere with me. Neither will ignorance..... "I don't know" is not a good answer. I'd much rather hear "I'm not positive, but I'll find out."

I try to buy as much as I can from the stores I like because I want them to be around years from now. If I pay more for the items I buy, I can justify it. Mail ordering livestock is hit and miss for me. I want to observe the animal before I buy it.

As an ancillary side note: If people get interested in the hobby from looking at my tanks (especially those with some money to burn) I don't hesitate in sending them to one of the stores I know will take care of them. Later, when I drop the name of the rich guy that just boiught a huge setup and pays the store a nice residual to maintain it, I usually get the red carpet treatment from them.

price/quality/selection/customer service.

Well, Ive worked in petstores for 6 year-- and worked mainly in reptiles and aquariums, and when i go into a new petstore, the first thing i look at is the tanks-- mostly at the fish and plants, then the decor-- if the fish are bright,alert and smiling at me--lol -- well almost, and the plants are in good shape.. Im happy-- The staff should be friendly--not pushy-- and I usually ask my new "helper" a medium strength question that i already know the answer to-- so that i get an idea of their knowledge, and willingness to admit "I dunno", as opposed to making something up-- which Pj's Pets staff are famous for! My Two Cents!!

Thanks!

Tina:P

Ok. I'll concede VHO lighting. However, pricing is a prime component of whether I should bother going in the door. If I won't buy anything there, why bother? That doesn't mean that a cheap store is good, it means that a rip off is bad.

Staff that is knowledgeable, and nice. A Display Tank. Selection. And the ablility to walk you through the steps of acclimating a Coral. When you buy a Coral/Fish whatever, They ask what its for (how many gallons tank is, whats the chemistry, whats already in there ETC...)

actually, in my example the vho store and the high price store is the same one. the guy isn't afraid of the tough corals and inverts and successfully keeps them (not just until the next transship but until sold).

i don't usually buy his corals unless i see a choice piece (smallish). i just go in to look at how certain corals should be. i'm a mooch.

unfortunately, he charges high because he knows his quality's the best and the ol' fugger just squats on the corals instead of going wal-mart.

my problem are the other lfs that charge high prices and have crap or don't know squat. some poor newb goes in and buys a rare white anemone. X) high prices aren't bad if you get what you pay for (high quality, good product, and ethical service).

It really grinds me when I see a store bagging up a white anemone. Especially since I bought more than one of those before I knew better. Makes me want to shout at the buyer not to do it. People never want to believe how tough Anemones are to keep, though.

I think I've found my new barometer on LFS aside from the usual dead fish in the aquarium thing. My wife wanted an aquarium for x-mas, so I said OK. Lets get you started with a nano because I've wanted one for a while now. I wanted something different than my all Hawaiian 30G.

So, I gave her a couple of books to read (which she skipped most of the important stuff and went straight for the species guide sections) hoping she would learn a thing or two about aquariums. I'm not dogging on my wife, she's a very intelligent person; however, science isn't her thing.

Because this to be her aquarium, I decided to let her decide which fish and LR and coral would be housed in the new AGA 10G. She chose a yellow tang (because she likes the one in or 30G), a reef trigger (She's Hawaiian, and saying the word Humuhumunukunukuapua'a is fun), and an achilles tang because she saw one while at Hunama Bay one time.... Anywho, I tried to explain to her that for her tiny tank she needed to stick with tiny fish. I made a few suggestions but that didn't seem to jive wiht her so we made a trip to a few local LFS's.

I had her ask the fish Guru's about appropriate species, care, feeding, maint, and the like while I listened a few feet away. OMG did she ever get some shoddy advice. There where about five LFS that gave above average to excellent advice which to me is a demonstration of not only knowledge but the general health of the fish at the store.

So, until my wife becomes adroit at taking care of her little nano, she'll be asking the questions, and I'll be listening in the background...

I wish stores would give discounts ony Bleached anenemoes. AW (Aqautic Wharehouse) Has this awsome.. Reallly Large 5-6" Foot diamter BTA but it's bleeching. I'm willing to put the time in to try to bring it back, but I'm not going to spend 60 bucks on a dying Invert.

I notice more and more that the two LFS's in my area have gotten cheap. One, is setting up it's display reef tank- with 2 400w mh. It's like a 290 gallon tank, prolly 3 foot tall. That's great, and wonderful, however in the section that they are selling their corals, they are keeping, (and let die) anenomes under 36w PC. The lights are probably 10 inches above the surface of the water, and obviously not near the amount of light that is needed. They got them 3 days ago, and they are all bleaching.

Provided I had a decent LFS that wouldn't tell me... "You can't put a 175w MH over a 15 gallon tank, you'll kill everything," I'd look for them keeping certain species under proper lighting. Making sure all their live rock, and coral specimens that are attached to rock are aptasia and velonia free (atleast from what you can see.)

On top of the things already mentioned..

Tell them you just filled up your new 55 gal tank yesterday and
want to know what fishes you should buy today..

If they explain that you should wait (cycle etc.), this is a good first sign.

I've seen some places that appear run down(concrete floors etc) and yet the tanks, people and fish are first rate..

95% of the time, avoid chain pet stores for livestock.

well yeah i ask tons od things like what do they feed then how mant times a day or week what lights the best deal i got was a black tang for 30.00 in a hole and the wall store with like 20 tanks good fish to

i avoid places with algae in the tanks...then i look for good prices and selection

*I avoid places with algae in the tanks*

Having worked in the pet store industry for several years, not to mention having had tanks for years, a lack of algae is usually a sign of the use of algicides or very meticulous algae scraping. That says nothing about the quality of livestock or advice at a store.

Example: Walmart (in general) has algae free tanks, very clean/brightly lit stores. Would I ever buy fish from one? Nope.

Quality of livestock and advice are the #1 things in my lfs decisions.

Ask how long they've been in business. With the exception of Petco, time is the true test of quality. To help with this, if you don't like an LFS, don't buy there, and encourage others to do the same. In my town, the LFS has been in business for almost 14 years. The owner is very knowledgeable, and is now afraid to look up things he doesn't know in his expansive library.

I look at the guy...i mean really stare him down...and if he runs away from his lack of knowledge...then i know....and he knows...and he shuts down...

l also look at the way they treat customers. Even if they havent a clue, as long as they are willing to admit it im cool. Also if it is midday and there are more than 3 dead fish in the tanks. No no. Corals that are mixed up species-wise too..ive seen softies touching up acros in the same tank..big no no...I also like asking questions to the top guy to see what he has to say. Other than that fish stores that treat you like valued regular customers are a plus...they give discounts......and they get all my moolah.

Close by to me is Salem NH. They have four LFS. Two are mega national chains. One is a large privately owned shop that I'd never buy salt water livestock from. They load up their fish only system with copper. They treatment of livestock is aweful. They are very arrogant and talk down to you. They load beginners up with tons of equipment along with confusion.
Then there's is little shop off the main drag owned by two reefers. They know I have a 16 gallon nano so they only recommend what will live in my tank(no tangs, etc.) They are very knowledgable, kind and courtious.

Here's a link to their website:

http://www.aquaaddicts.com/

I wish there were a LpS in my area that only does fish, and know absolutely everything that they're talking about. One I went to had 2 tangs and 2 clowns in a little compartment about 1G in size. TALK ABOUT NOT KNOWING WHAT YOUR DOING!

I guess I'm lucky for I have one pet store that doesn't rip me off the owners are the ones who are working there and I ckecked their prices and they are close to online prices like I got my CORAL LIFE 96 watt light for $139 and I went to another LFS and it was $190 and they have tripled their prices on their fish and give really bad advice like told me it was OK to put fish in MY 29GAL after two days but they survived I'm lucky and they look at me like i'm stupid when I do somthing wrong I'm a newbe and don't understand a lot so I hate that store.

It all depends. I find that the larger more expensive stores will tell you anything just to sell you the product. I have become pretty good friends with the owner of my favorite LFS, its really nice when you go in there and they remember what kind of tank you have and ask "how is that (instert fish/invert) doing?"

It is really hard to say how to tell if the LFS knows what they are talking about etc, but nobody knows EVERYTHING. So it is best when you ask question and they do something like, grab a book and show you and get the info from there. It does annoy me how a lot of guys that run those stores act like they know everything when they are really misinformed.

It all depends on the consumers knowledge. The best thing you can do to protect yourself is read, read ,read. And then when the guy at the lfs tells you the RBTA can do fine in a nano cube...you can just chuckle to yourself.

DNA (some will know where i'm talking about) is HUGE but can be shady on the advice. one guy told me a white anemone was "very hardy!" :*( , although it WAS cheap i guess--$9.99.

my new favorite LFS has happy fish, happy corals, MH lighting where they need it, and a couple teenage kids that work there because they are reef geeks, not because they're trying to sell me something.

I was once in a LFS and told the salesman, who was very courteous that I would like 3 female and 1 male platy (or swordtail or something), and he laughed and said,
"No one can tell them apart." I was puzzled.

when i go to lfs, i judge its "worthiness by the people that work there;) this one guy i know in monrovia is really cool, so is the owner. the guy gives us as best a deal as he can offer w/o getting in trouble with the owner. haha. and some lfs have good stuff, but you can tell if they're ripping you off by the way they talk to you. the ones that want to rip you off, don't want to talk to you much. and vice versa.

I'd say I have a pretty decent lfs. the staff always seems to know what's up. I overheard this guy trying to buy a big goniopora (100+ bucks..), and my buddy Chris actually didn't let him get it! Probably not the smartest decision from a business standpoint, but the guys there are pretty good w/thier reef keeping ethics. The manager would've gone ape on him if he found out, but Chris is hardcore like that. We're peas in a pod...

I like to judge on display tanks. If they know what they are doing, it will show there.

In fish displays, so many fish move in and out, and rocks moved around, its hard to make them look nice. Where I work, we're just getting the plumbing finished on an ~2000 gallon tank from tenecor. Suh-weet.

Zack's LFS = EXPENSIVE. They charge TWO TIMES as much for equipment as any online store does, and they have a dead fish in their tank every time I visit... The only other choice is Petco, which, is also.......expensive....

try a mag 7 for $150 at one of my LFS. I paid about $50 for mine on marine depot.

My local Lfs is Very reputable (also one of the only in Ireland that sell Marines.) and give great advice, However they know nothing about Nanos . It costs 5 Gbp per lb of Live Rock, about $9 . Though ALL their livestock is in great condition.So they are exactly what I look for in an lfs except for the price

ive worked in a few different fish stores over the past 5 yrs. i find its much better to be totally honest with the customer. i think a few ppl may be suprised to hear that thats not always that easy. a lot of people take me asking them the specs on their tank the wrong way. they then ramble on about what experts they are and how ive just insulted them. it is sometimes just easier to sell them what they want.
prices come with the area also. i now live in fl where lr goes for 5-6$ per lb. in ct, ny, or nh its anywhere from 9-14$. livestock prices fluxuate in this way as well. as any of you who do internet orders know...shipping costs are enough to make you broke. indifferent areas the distributor pays more, so the lfs pays more, so we pay more.
an algae free tank. thats laughable. ive scraped miles worth of algae and it never ends. theres sometimes more inportant things to do than scrape the unsightly algae in the tank. i agree that the overall apearance should look clean...but there will always be algae.
when i go to a lfs..as long as the people there have a basic knowledge of what theyre doing(and are willing to admit they dont if they dont), and their livestock looks good and isnt overpriced i will buy from them.

I really believe you get what you pay for:
Example:
The better LFS in my area has beautiful, and I mean IMMACULATE tanks, Great lighting, these tanks are awesome. They have 25 gallon tanks for smaller fish and two 100 gallon larger fish tanks and 6 coral tanks that are 70 Gal a piece. And they are expensive, but I go there because I go into the back equipment room and pick out a fish from one of their 12 acclimation tanks and i can pick it up in 15 days, I mean they REFUSE to sell you a fish that wasn't acclimated for 14 days. I have never dealt with this kind of dealer. They pay high school kids to clean there tanks about 15 hours a week. I could go on for hours about them

Experence in the staff!

Oh yea,

if the tanks don't look as good as mine - bad!
dead/sick fish - bad!

Nuff said!