Hello, I just start in this reef tank hobby. I just moved and don't have alot of money so I combed craigslist every few days to see if I could find something there. Well, a few days ago I found a guy that was trying to get rid of a set up, I offer $30 and he sold it to me. It's a 20 gal high with live rock, a filter, 2 fish, a heater, and a standard light and a couple of other stuff. The guy who bought I bought it from didn't have any business owning a saltwater tank and it's in pretty bad shape. He didn't even dechlorinate his water. He also had the tank by the window, and the tank light to set up to go on at night, so that hair algae was extremely bad.. So I went to Petsmart bought dechlorinator, a thermometer, Salt, and other necessities.

I cleaned the tank, made some new water, and bought 6 turbo snails to help clean the algae. The fish are a Ocellaris clownfish and a blue damsel. He actually though the blue damsel was dead, but it was just hiding from him. They both are doing much better with fresh water. Now I would like to turn this into a reef tank eventually, but I just moved and don't have a job so I don't have alot of money. It there anything that it necessary that I don't have to stabilize and clean the tank? I know that I should get a power head and better lights but I don't think they are necessary right now (am I wrong?). And is there a way to clean the tank up better. Also I am thinking about taking out the crushed coral and adding live sand. I want to take this slow and right, what should I do next.

the clown looks pretty rough, i bet the damsel is beating the hell out of him/her

The Damsel seems very skiddish, should I take him out of the tank? I did notice that the top of the clowns fin seemed missing.

i would let the snails do there thing for a while.

then invest in a light and then a powerhead and then coral.

or you could scrub all the rocks then add more live rock and a pwerhead let it cycle again and then do light and corals. just moe the fish to the other tank and do one at a time then ull have 2 tanksthat are reef. or u could make one a fuge/sump use ur stock light for the sump fuge and use a bought light for the display.

So lights then powerhead? I was figuring powerhead then lights, does it make a difference? Unfortunately I don't have the money for the second option.

Out of curiosity, what are your water parameters?.

Do you have any test kits? They would be top of my shopping list.
API Saltwater Master Kit is a good economical choice for new aquariums.

Start using RO or distilled water asap. With tap water you are taking a risk with a marine aquarium.

Adding a powerhead would be the next thing on the list. A Chinese Koralia copy would do the trick without breaking the bank.

Don't worry about the lighting, it makes no difference to snails and fish. You can think about that once you are happy the aquarium is stable and healthy and are ready to add a coral or two. Gives the pocket a little time to recover as well.

Most people would agree that you should change out the coral for aragonite sand. Any aragonite sand will do, the bagged live sand is not worth paying a premium for. Before doing this, have a search on here for changing sandbeds.

Good luck.

How many gallons per hour should I look at for a power head? I have a 20g high. And where should I put it?

What are your water parameters?.

algae (green and cyano) First thing i would do is ditch the coral substrate.
Get quality test kits (a must in my opinion)

Getting your water parameters under control is the best option currently. Power head/lighting would be later IMO.

You have a small cuc let them get the algae cleanup started as your getting parameters in check.

+1 Your focus at the moments should be ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels.

You do need some flow though. Good deals can be had on Koralias at the moments as they have just released a new range. This would do you. Two of the smaller pumps (Koralia 1s or Nano) would be better as you could create more random flow.

If you can not afford a water test kit call around to your local fish or pet stores and see if they test water for free, knowing what chemicals you need to keep in check is half the battle to owning a successful tank and especially a reef tank. I know money is tight for you so this will be a big patience game for you but your on the right track!

Ya, I'm not sure exactly what my parameters are. I do have test strips and they say that the water is fine, but there is a LFS that does free water testing. SO I need these things:

1.) Make sure I have OK water parameters as soon as possible and use RO water for rest of water changes*
2.) Get a powerhead or two in the near future
3.) Switch coral for sand in the near future
4.) Upgrade lights when I want to go reef
5.) Get a protein skimmer eventually.

*Since the water was so bad do I need to do more water changes more frequently for a week or two, say 10% ever other day?

Do you have a hydrometer? If so, what kind?

It's best to remove the damsel since the clown (which is actually also a damsel) will be much more peaceful with other fish.

In the meantime of getting test kits (the API saltwater master kit is a great value for the price), you can do large water changes with distilled or RO/DI water as long as you match the specific gravity and temperature to the display's parameters. Theoretically, you can do as much as a 100% water change, but you can start out with something like 50%. The reason you should try to do larger water changes is to remove as much of the original water (made from tap water) as possible, in addition to lower nutrients and possibly toxic/stressful compounds to the fish.

Also, is the filter filled with stock filter media? If so, you need to carefully (not all at once) remove the media since it likely is clogged with detritus and contributing to your nutrient problems. Nutrient problems are what's causing the algae blooms. You may want to replace the filter media with some type of phosphate sponge like chemipure elite.

Oh god. Please, please please PLEASE tell me you at least have a hydrometer...

Do you know how to properly mix salt in the water?. your not using kitchen salt are you... you uh, are using salt right?.

your entire focus right at this moment needs to be on test kits and a hydrometer (or buy a refractometer on marine depot for $50).

No test kits = tank likely will be dead in two months max. No hydrometer = tank dead within another week or two when you do a water change and can't measure the salinity.

This is all assuming you are using salt - salt meant for marine aquariums... if your not, you need to.

Get a job

best-o-luck

LOL over react much...

jelkinsiv .. Laks has a good point do you have a hydrometer? You definately do need one. I would recommend larger than 10% water changes. 25% i would do every couple days for a week Then i would probably do a 100% water change after that. Reason I would do it this way is to basically acclimate the fish int he tank to good water since declorinated tap was in use for who knows how long before. Last thing ya would want to do is stress em more.

Laks also mentioned removing the damsel. I to think this would be a good since they are little devils..

Please read the replies carefully and cull out the over reactions and sarcasm and pick out the good info. Do searches on this site and google for answers if your unsure and post questions. Never be afraid to ask for clarification when you are in need of it.

Good luck and I think these animals are in a better place now than their previous owner.. Grats!

Yes, I have done alot of book research into saltwater aquariums and online reading about reef tanks. I do have a very good idea of what I am getting myself into, as well as decent base knowledge of the hobby. I just want to double check everything with people how have experience especially since I am playing doctor.

I do have a hydrometer (instant ocean needle) and I am using Instant Ocean Salt. The specific gravity when I got the tank was like 1.030 and I have been adding progressive less salty water to the tank as to not stress out the fish. It's currently at 1.0255 on it's way down to 1.024. And based on your recommendation I will buy a test kit right now.





Working on that too. Just moved from Wisconsin the North Carolina 2 weeks ago. The economy in rural Wisconsin is VERY bad compared to here.

You have a lot of work in store.

Get a skimmer.
Get rid of half the substrate.
Do a water change.
Get rid of the other half of substrate.
Do a water change.
Take out a piece of live rock and scrub it with a brush to get off the algae.
Do a water change.
Take out another piece of live rock, scrub it.
Do a water change. Repeat until all pieces of live rock have been scrubbed.

Get some flow in the tank with powerheads.
I would put a Magnum Hot on there with carbon.
Change the carbon weekly.

Then on a weekly basis, water change, add another piece of cured live rock.
Until you have a good amount of live rock in there.

That damsel is eating your clown by the way.
I would not expect the clown to live through that tank anyways, just take it out when it dies.
Catch the damsel if you can, and flush it. If not, starve it.

That's what I would do. Short of ditching it all, and getting a new tank set up.





That swingarm hydrometer is nowhere near that accurate.

If you can't afford a 50$ refractometer, then get a glass hydrometer.
They are like 8-10 bucks for a good one.
And will work just fine right now, and in the future.

Ok, New Question.

I have a top fin 20 filter in right now with a brand new cartridge in it. Is this going to enough filtration and water movement for the time being? It's what came with the tank I will probably upgrade, but is it ok for now?

Also I have done some research and I am fairly confident what I know what and when to feed my clown, but how much? I can't seem to find out how much.

No. Junk.

Your live rock is your filter. And that junk you have does not have enough flow.


That clown is going to die, most likely.
They are hardy fish of course, but that tank is in horrible shape.
And you have no idea what your parameters are(they suck, no need for a test kit to tell that).

I would not worry about the clown too much.

I am planning on getting a refractometer from marine depot, currently I have what the OP has for a hydrometer... how inaccurate is it?.

Should I just take it off?



Well it has last 4 months in the guys HORRIBLE water, will the clean, better water help, or is he doomed?

Do I realistically have a chance of fixing this setup or am I doomed?

leave the filter on there. its better than nothing, although your liverock is your filter you need that filter for the time being if you cant replace it with something else... it will continue adding flow and oxygenating the water. your not doomed. like someone else previously mentioned i would add a chemipure elite in the filter chamber... if you can bring the clown to a store to hold until you get the tank stable that would make this alot easier. if not youll have to just make sure you match the salt levels and temp before you do water changes. Those hydrometers are off in terms of correct SG but if you match the tank water and the freshly mixed salt water with the hydrometers they should match each other which is what your looking to do. When you mix salt water make sure you run a power head in the water for a little bit before adding so the salt can mix well. if you cant get a powerhead try to shake the bucket up or stir it around to make sure all of the compounds mix.

everytime you do a water change, remove some of the substrate carefully trying not to disturb it too much...just take out a little each time you do a water change. also like someone else said you can remove a rock everytime as well and scrub it so it removes some of the algae.

Dont run the lights for the time being.. Getting the water levels correct will get rid of the Hair algae problem.


try to get the fish store to test the water.

lmao @ kitchen salt.

I told you what I would do.


Stop putting chemicals in the tank that you have no idea about.
Don't put dechlorinator in there. Or anything else for that matter, except as I noted.
You need to replace all the water with good clean saltwater with water changes.
You don't need fancy salt either, you are not putting corals in there for several months, just use regular Instant Ocean until you stabilize your tank. Its like 12 bucks a bag.

If the clown makes it through the clean up cycling that I told you that I would do, then he makes it through. But don't count on it. They are hardy, so who knows but you when you do it.
Get rid of the damsel if you can, at any time that you can.
Why have a 3 dollar salt water goldfish(throwaway for all practical purposes) terrorizing and eating a 30+ dollar fish?

Wow just finished reading the thread so far. Tough crowd In my opinion you can still save the clown. At one point in my 75 gallon tanks live i had completely neglected my tank for around 6 months. No water changes, no filter changes-nothing. I had a lot of personal stuff going on and the tank was on the bottom of my list. Well i didn't really think about how long it had been until i came out one morning and two of my fish were dead and my 2 clowns were listing sideways and trying to keep from swimming upsidedown. I immediately set up a 10 gallon with sand from my tank and a rock to buffer the new tank- and 10 gallons of new clean saltwater. I transfered them over and began taking down my 75 gallon and more or less starting from scratch.

About 2 weeks in to the 10 gallon hospital tank my 1 small clown began swimming upsidedown and couldn't right himself. Oddly enough one morning i woke up and he was fine. Now all are back in a clean and better taken care of 75 gallon with new tank mates as well.

I guess the moral to this story is don't be discouraged by others. Like you said they survived for months in the other setup and there is no reason you cant help your fish turn it around.

Good Luck

im not an activist but wtf kinda comment is starve the damsel or flush it - basing it as a 3 dollars vs 30dollar fish isn't helping him lol...who cares on the price - your being very general in your advice. The goal is to get the tank stable not distinguish the evilness a damsel possesses. lol

the reason for removal? 1 the fish will always terrorize any other fish, and at this point the goal is to keep the clown fish LESS STRESSED at this time.I'm sure you could bring back the damsel to a petstore...petco or petsmart [whichever one has salt water fish] they will always take it back - just say you bought it there and dont want refund or anything....

To lower s.g., just add freshwater (slowly) to the tank. If your water level is high, remove some saltwater and replace with freshwater. Increasing is more complicated (don't add salt to a tank), but it can be done with evaporation and water changes with higher s.g.

A glass hydrometer, refractometer, or conductivity meter are good choices.

Well after all the comments about the water, I immediately went to PetSmart and bought a salt water master test kit. Here are the numbers:

pH - 7.8

Ammonia - 0.0 - 0.25 I wasn't sure which color it looked like more. It seems to be more like the 0.0 but I'd rather play it safe

Nitrite - a very clear 0.0 ppm

Nitrate - between 5 - 10

I'm going to test again later tonight to double check. So would seem I need a pH buffer, anything else?

Is that really a question?
I was very specific with my advice.
The damsel, if it is an aggressive specimen, will terrorize any future fish adds to the tank. Not just the clown.
I don't know what world you live in, but keeping a 3 dollar fish in a reef tank, which you can't put any other fish in, is just really stupid. Just so that you can keep your goody goody PETA SPCA ALF conscience clear. Your sense of balance is completely alien to me.


Sure try that.
One, my local fish stores don't take stray fish. Certainly not damsels.
Two, it costs more in gas to drive there with a wet baggy-o-damsel, than the damsel cost in the first place.

Honestly, all of the blue damsels I have had are really on the less aggressive spectrum compared to the dominoes, three striped, and grey spotted. Those three usually mow through blue damsels like goldfish in an oscar tank. But that clown has signs of being harassed by the blue.

Like it or not, most of things that are put into reefers tanks are gonna die. They would most probably die in the wild. The vast bio mass of things put into all of the tanks in the US last year, is probably all dead right now. Don't get all school-girl-weepy-eyed-animal-lover on me. There are much bigger problems in the world, than a 3 buck bastard blue damsel dieing.

Good call on the test kit.
If your nitrites are zero, it is most likely that your ammonia is testing zero.
But it's the phosphates which are the root of your tank problem. It came in the water, in the food, and in the rock.
You shouldn't really need a pH buffer. Your new salt water will be balanced, and you will be making frequent water changes. Think of it this way, your salt mix has pH buffer already in it.

But then again, whats the real harm. pH buffer is just baking soda. Dissolve some in water first before you add it. This is the best time to experiment with your tank. Go to the fridge, get some Arm and Hammer, and test it out. If you want to spend more money, go get some Kent's buffer(its baking soda too, btw). You really can't hurt anything, max pH will be 8.2. At which point the carbonate will start precipitating out of the water, and it will just turn cloudy on you(but its inert at that point relatively speaking).

Phosphates from treated tap water I would guess. Your tank will go green with Phosphates. I invested in RODI filters and Phosphates went to 0 with massive water changes.

By the way, I have flushed fish that I didn't want or that caused problems. Never once gave it a second thought.

Unfortunately I can' currently afford a skimmer, also I have read several places that a skimmer isn't needed on this size tank, a good idea but not need. So are you suggesting it because of the shape of the tank?

Also, how much do you recommend for a water change? I was thinking 20% or are you recommending 100%. Would you recommend a few days between each of these water changes to stabilize or do it every day?

Based on my test the water isn't as bad as I though, or at least that's the impression that I got. I know that I should use RO water, but since i will be doing very frequent water changes for at least a couple weeks would it be OK to use dechlorinated tap water, or is it not worth the risk.

Also, how can I help aeration? Should I get a pump?

I am trying not spend money ( I know I shouldn't have bought the tank, I didn't think it was as bad as it was), but it looks like I got a job today ( cross your fingers), so I should be able to get more proper equipment. So what should be my next priory equipment wise? Powerheads?

Some of the reactions on this thread are sensational to say the least. The OP needs constructive input, not rants or overfacing with too much at a time. Little steps; nitrogen cycle, removing excess nutrients and their source, remove excess algae, CUC........

EDIT, you will need a second powerhead and a heater for making saltwater for water changes.

What I meant by that was the tank was in rough shape, not a square shape. I'm not sure if thats how it came off but that's what a meant. My B.

So i should get a power head, now some said to get 2 smaller power heads, is this a good idea? Also how many gallons per hour should I look for, 400ish?

I'd go a little higher than 400gph, two Koralia 1's if budget allows. Direct one towards the other and you should get good random flow.

Edit spelling.

Which would be better two Koralia 1's or nanos? The Koralia 1 seem big (size not output).

You need to increase your flow.
You needs some powerheads, Koralias or Maxi Jets, something.

You need a way to remove all of the phosphates that you can.
You will export them by removing the algae.
By removing the detritus collecting substrate.
And with frequent water changes.

The skimmer will remove a lot of proteins, phospholipids, and particulate matter(like algae cells remaining after you scrub the rock) in the water which break down into phosphates(and nitrogenous wastes). A skimmer is not necessary, of course. You will just have to do more, and more frequent water changes. A good cheap nano skimmer is going to run about 100-120 or so. I saw a Coralife 65 for 85 bucks a couple months ago.

Running your water through a carbon source, I recommended the Magnum HOT because it is cheap, self contained, and easy to clean, will help filter out nuisance stuff. Not mandatory, of course. It works as a mechanical filter as well as a chemical filter. But you have to clean out any filtered detritus frequently. It adds about 250gph of flow to the system. Don't use bargain carbon either, API or Marineland should be fine enough. The really cheap stuff has stuff in it you don't want in your tank.

Get this notion of tap water completely out of your head. Don't do it.
Buy jugs of distilled from WalMart, get RO/DI water from a local water dealer or your LFS.
Alhambra brings my distilled water to the door. Call whoever delivers drinking water locally to your area, and find out what their 5 gallons distilled runs.
Buy an RO filter, or make your own.
But no more tap water.

Don't use a buffer; pH should only cause concern if it is lower than 7.8. Here's a good four part guide to water chemistry:
Part 1: The Saltwater Itself
Part 2: What Chemicals Must be Supplemented
Part 3: pH
Part 4: What Chemicals May Detrimentally Accumulate

OK, no more tap water, ever! But distilled water will work? I ran all over town today looking for RO water and no one had it, at least I didn't know it was RO. There is a fish store that sells it but it's kinda far, but I'm planning to go there tomorrow. Tomorrow I am going to do 4 gallon water change at the same time take a rock or two out and scrub them off in the old water and remove 1/2 of the crushed coral substrate. As well as go from 7 hours light to 5.

Is this a good plan? Should I do more water change, may be not scrub the rocks AND remove 1/2 of the substrate

This is kind of a generalization, but usually most grocery stores or places that sell drinking water will have a water machine. These are usually RO/DI even if they don't specifically list it. If it is a place that specifically sells drinking water then just ask them. It's their job to know water and can tell you. However you get it though it will almost always be better than tap.

With the scrubbing of the rock and substrate...I would probably just do the substrate. Maybe a quarter of it at the most. The big issue is going to be how dirty it is. With crushed coral it catches a lot of the waste that floats to the bottom and settles (especially with such low flow in this tank). The problem that this causes is that when it's trapped it's not being removed with water changes. So when it's disturbed there is suddenly a flood of chemicals into the water. Again...I would remove some of the substrate and just throw it out. Don't worry about cleaning it and putting it back. That would delay the problem.

As for the rocks though if there is any algae that you can remove by hand by all means pluck it out. Otherwise I would let the CUC work over the rock until you get the issue with your substrate fixed.

Also your pretty good on the things your picking up. I would grab a powerhead first out of any of the equipment that you still need though. I would say to grab a K1. Your only running this as a FOWLR atm so it should be enough to keep things moving. When you decide to go reef I would pic up a nano.

Good point. The hang on the back filter could also be used with some carbon and filter floss.

Two Koralia Nanos will be fine if you find the others too bulky. Having two powerheads is useful as you can disrupt the flow of one with the other. Random flow is better than a constant stream.

RODI / Distilled water. Change the substrate. Remove excess algae. Treat yourself to a skimmer if you get the job.......

You appear to be getting a grasp of this quickly, I'm sure you'll make a success of this tank.

Took my water to the pet store today and to make sure that I am doing my testing right. They said my pH was low, and I knew that. The guy there tries to get me a buffer. Should I listen to him? or is he just trying to get me to buy something. A few people here said no pH buffer, so what should I do? I'll test again after a water change.

He's just trying to make a sale. You don't need to worry about ph on your 2 day old tank, no. Don't even bother testing for it, just worry about ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and watching the cycle establish.

What is "low"?

Read the pH article linked below if you havn't already.

If you are going to add any chemical to your tank, you should choose what to add and know why you should add it. There are different types of pH buffer that can have differing effects on your water chemistry. Did the LFS also test for Alkalinity?



These articles by Randy Holmes Farley are pretty good. There are some more indepth ones as well.

+1 Buffer's a waste of money. Once your big cycle's done, the pH should pretty much take care of itself.

Actually, the tank is 4+ months old, but just taken care by a man who didn't know anything he was doing till I bought it a few days ago. My last test had the pH at 7.8 and no he didn't check alkalinity.

On another note, I got rid of the damsel, he was pretty but mean.

i never test pH and i bet that over half the people on this site even know it exists... dont worry about it at all.. it will be fine ( unless you get really drunk and pee in the sump )

This is the tank that the guy was running for 4 months with tap water which he wasn't dechlorinating?

Yet he had fish living in it for 4 months...

Something doesn't add up. If what you said about the tap water was actually true, I doubt there's much about your live rock that is actually 'live' since chlorine tends to have an ill effect on life. So you've got dead rock and a tank that is pretty much as old as your ownership of it...

Or what you said wasn't true, and you have a 4 month old tank with nothing more than an algae problem.

Hard to try and help when the facts are... suspect.