Well,

I think people enjoy making it seem harder than it actually is. Is it that HARD or does it takes SKILL to do frequent water changes/tests/feeding ? I do not think so, and now with internet, everything is made so easier. 15 years ago you could not get any ressources if you did not experience it first hand. Now you have the knowledge and experience of thousands of people.

1- You research
2- You plan according to what you researched (liked)
3- You do it without cutting corners (there are ways for it to be less expensive)
4- You stick to your routine

Yes you might encounter problems, equipment wise does it take skills ? no
The rest is all about taking the precaution or just being lucky and blessed with healthy livestock...

In the end, reefers tend to project an elitist image of themselves, trying to put this hobby on a pedestal while I've seen quite a few planted tanks that required much more work.

I've also had a tank for a little over two months and I still think it's a difficult long-term venture. And at two months I've barely started stocking my tank, so I don't think I have enough experience to determine that it's not hard. I haven't had a disaster or crash yet, but it's always looming, no matter how well I try to maintain my tank. IMO all the variables that could lead to disaster, all the variables we have to juggle, and the diversity of life that we are responsible for in our little ecosystems make it a hard hobby. Just because we're starting to get used to it doesn't mean it's not hard.

The time, the expense, the patience, and the learning curve involved make it a difficult hobby for most people. And when I have my first major setback - it will eventually come, I know - I hope I have the perseverance to carry on. Coming back after a crash is one of the hardest things I can imagine in this hobby, and I really applaud those who emerge from it even better than before. IMO, you can't really say it's "not hard" if you've not really been tested yet.

Think about this - if this hobby were not hard, I'd be comfortable letting just anyone, after a quick ten minute run-through, take care of my tank while I'm away on a two-week vacation. I'm certainly not comfortable with that. Are you?

+1 well said

Yeah, 2 months is too soon to tell. And the level of difficulty in keeping SW depends on the type of livestock you intend to keep. Some are a lot more challenging than others, so even within reef tanks, there's a huge range of "difficulty".

Isn't two months about how long it should take to cycle...

going on 15 years here...

with the same tank? The guy you quoted was saying one tank for 5years with no upgrade in tank size or crashes.

I quite my SW tank after 3 months. Once you miss a Saturday tweaking/cleaning after an unexpected death you loose interest fast, esp. looking at the salt creep and grime in your livingroom tank. I also had some live rock with majano on it. After burning the site and scrapping it off, it popped up anew 5 days later in another site! I will now try to kill some stuff in fresh water ...

i wouldn't say its hard. It's a skill. Without skill its going to be hard. If you know the information and have a good understanding about whats going on, then things become a little bit more simple. When i first started in sw about a year ago that crap was confusing but after a little research and learning it became more easy to maintain my tanks.

i've had my fair share of disaster with my tank. I like to think of it as a learning experience that will never happen again.

Well of course tanks don't last 5 years, especially on a Nano forum. Its a big part of the hobby. The livestock is the focus, but the tank and the equipment can add or detract to the overall effect of a reef tank. Its a challenge, and it keeps you interested.

Now, don't get me wrong, I still wouldn't say this hobby is as easy as pie. I'm just saying shuffling the livestock as your interests change doesn't denote extreme difficulties with any particular setup.

I'll pose the question again; would any of you be as interested if this hobby was that easy? I went through a rough tank crash, and despite the desperate pleas from my wallet for mercy I wandered back in for more. Of course, you could argue the case that stupidity is involved here some how, but I do enjoy the pretty colors.

you can study this hobby for 3 hour's a day for 5 year's and you'll just start to break the surface to knowing alot about it

QUOTE (Psychosis @ Mar 13 2010, 03:54 PM)

My wallet cries every time. but when you see the results its more or less worth it to me

I think if you want to do it right the hobby's super hard.
I think it's a little early to say after 2 months of having a tank. What are you keeping in there?

That doesnt make much sense..If you maintain your aquarium properly regardless of its size you should be able keep your tank happy and healthy for much longer than 5 years. But thats exactly my point if it was such an easy thing to do there should be some pretty old tanks around here yet there isnt... So there must be some difficulty or challenges involved in this hobby or our tanks would be just as old as our dogs...

Didn't read the entire thread. Too much of the same stuff. Nah, j/p. BUT, my honest opinion is everyone's will differ from the next. While 2 months without incident is good, that's not saying your a "success story". Reefing, or saltwater in general is such a broad hobby that even the most advance or experienced hobbyist only knows a small amount in the whole view of things. The thing IMO that makes this hobby so delightful is the variety. That is what you can learn, what's available to you and how you utilize things. I've been reefing for around 9+ years, on and off. I've had ups and downs. It's frustrating to lose things. It's been times where I felt things were a breeze. IMO, you can call this "easy" or "not hard" when you're able to help others with their issues.

I've just seen too many folks do a little reading, posting on the boards and learn a little bit. Have their tank running for sometime and think everything is going great. TILL one day you've got an issue, be it small or something catastrophic(which hopefully isn't) we all will or have had that issue.

The KEY IMO to everything is patience. Be patient till you lose your first prized fish. Then you'll see what most people mean. It hits a soft spot in us folks who've been doing this for a LONG time to see a newbie say this expensive and delicate hobby is easy, or at least my 2 cents. Take it as it is. Just saying, anyhow glad everything is going great for you.

i think hes talking about how people upgrade there tanks. the 55 gallon started life as a 26 gallon tank then moved to a 30 gallon then to the 55 gallon and then the 55 was used to set up my now running 29 gallon tall

This man speaks facts!

I've been doing the saltwater thing for about 9 years, and it isn't necessarily difficult. The early going is extremely easy, since the tank is young, everything is pristine, and maintenance can be low if you are keeping up on it. Where does the trouble come in?

Surprises!

Those with little experience in this will learn the hard way every time. In the 9 years I have been dong this, I have had horrible green and red algae outbreaks, floods, leaking sumps, stuck heaters, flatworms. ammonia spikes, horrible diatom blooms, carpet surfers, electricity in the tank, etc etc etc.

I don't wish it on the OP, but these things will sometimes happen, and you will understand what makes this hobby "hard".

I've got two dogs, and a senegal parrot as well, and that trio has been a freaking cakewalk compared to my aquarium.

I agree with everything you said, but I am challenging the quoted statement above.....Now, do you get a kick out of cleaning the gravel, or the end result?

There has to be a limit to your madness!!!

Thanks for the clarification. But my point is still even with the upgrades its rare a tanks combined life ever exceeds a few years and it has a lot to do with some of the challenges you encounter within the first year or two of having a reef setup. We all know it isnt a huge mystery to setting up a reef tank but i do feel were still scratching the surface because in reality the life spans of most tanks is still relatively a short one.

Yes sir! I agree.

BUT, it is funny how many "experts" there are out there. Ain't it funny how they are all "self-proclaimed" experts too? Man, they all know everything! I went into a LFS the other day, and the comment was "that is the wrong way to do that." I love those comments. Interesting that later in the conversation about keeping a carpet in a full reef tank has "never been done successfully" so it must "be the wrong thing to do." Funny how some angels don't eat corals, and how some triggers don't eat invertebrates. It's not WRONG, but maybe not the "standard." Dudes like that dude just don't get that if you prep your tank, do you research, and monitor the situation, MANY non-standard things can be accomplished. And even if you "fail," it does not mean that you did wrong. Flip it up, change the components that lead to non-success, and try again.

As long as people are not arbitarily buying corals without doing at least SOME kind of prior research or have the time to sit and anaylize the inhabitants and their acclimation period, then I think everything has to be experimented with. That is how our civilization gets better at everything.....reef-keeping included. Just do not say "I am King Reef God" and crap like that and think everyone else sucks compared to you. Understand that we all have the ability to contribute and experiment.

That is why I love this forum, because it is filled with inquizitive, experimental, and caring people that love playing in this hobby, which incidentally, is the my opinion of the best hobby ever!

Sorry, but this thread sparked interest. If any LFS exhibited humbleness and intelligence like this forum, the places would be so much enjoyable to shop in.

If you were to take a poll of all people attempting to keep reef tanks I'd say you are correct that the vast majority won't keep the same tank running continuously for 5 years. The reasons vary, so its not always due to tank crashes.

However, if you look at a sampling of those people who have mastered the different facets of reef keeping then you'll find many more older tanks running 5, 10 or even many years longer.

Nano tank statistics would likely show that the smaller tanks aren't maintained as long as larger systems since many people are tempted to upgrade. For experienced reefers who are inclined to stick with their nanos, there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to run successfully for a decade and beyond.

So your experience is picking out a tank, putting rock in, gathering water, and cycling? You're right that isn't hard. Anyone can keep rock alive for two months.

I don't think the OP really meant to say its easy as in like oh anyone can just do this and have no problems just go get stuff put it together and boom, you have a reef tank, no problem. Let me explain....
When I was a kid, about 25 yrs ago I remember my dad having a saltwater tank. It didn't last very long because it was hard and lets go over some of this. For one back then they used under gravel filters which no one would use now would they? The lights on the tank were standard tank kit lights, salt creep got all over the black iron stand and rusted it, salt would get all over the walls and drip down the tank back. Expensive fish died, corals, anenomes died etc etc etc. Aftering seeing and hearing about all that, a saltwater reef was "hard". Harder than just having a freshwater tank and dumping water from the sink in and adding stress coat and buying dollar mollys etc etc.
After the experience and hearing about it you would have never thought I would even try a saltwater tank let alone a reef but then I had my daughter, she fell in love with Nemo and I always loved the little clown fish and I figured, let me read about all this and see if I can even do it. Of course I've had FW tanks since I was really young and managed to keep things together that normally would not get along etc. And I've had animals of all different kinds my whole life, I love pets!
So I find this site and read and read and found all the info I could want right here to figure this hobby out. So I attempted it and I didn't have the same issues my dad did or think it was as hard as I always heard, like you'd need to be a marine biologist lol, but its not "Easy" either. It takes maintenance and certain things to work, chemistry wise,mixing water etc.
So I think I get what the OP "meant" to say and if this isn't than I am sorry lol, not trying to take his side if he really thinks this is just an easy hobby. I hope all that made sense, its easier to understand it in my head than to put it all down and not make it a huge story

i have nothing to contribute......

agreed I love the end result's and when they are not met and I spent 20 hours in one week just to have faded and shrunk coral's then come on here and look at other's tank's I get jealous

but if only I started with a mp10 on my 29G thing's would of been a bit better instead of 3 hydor nano's and 2 maxijet's

I'm sorry, I really wasn't very clear. What I meant was that people upgrade often out of desire, not unfortunate circumstance. A lot of people have 2 or 3 year old Nanos that are doing so well they have to either upgrade or loose some of their favourite colonies. One thing about a Nano that everyone overlooks when setting it up is how selective you have to be with coral (in the long run) and being prepared to trim often. The larger the tank, the more room to grow. Another thing about the longevity of a* nano that has to be considered is that it is a relatively cheap way to get a feel for the hobby. Once you're comfortable, its often the case that you want to step in to a larger investment.

But again, this really isn't a casual hobby. Its very active and involved. We all seek better equipment to support our coral, not to mention the coral itself. This is one hobby that is very suceptible to trends and fads for a reason. If you've truly got the reef bug, how ever, this becomes as big a part of the hobby as daily maintenance. Thats what makes it difficult for some, and rewarding for others.

IMO, of course.

i have to say, i would be much more impressed with your declaration if you've successfully kept a pretty SPS tank for 2+ years.

Ah come on, the guy just got over that initial fear of killing what he has. I don't think we should pelt him with insulting posts because he's relieved and excited. It made for an interesting discussion either way.

On that note, screw SPS...calcium sucking devil sticks.

fine... NPS tank for 2+ years?

Now that just made me LOL

just getting into a few nps myself and they are challenging and demanding I only thought they needed to be fed special food but now find out they need a large amount of the right flow as well

I totally agree with you. We "should" be able to run succesful nanos for decades but the reality is there a few if any that are older than a few years. Because of some of the reasons you listed above(such as the desire to upgrade) but mainly due to some challenges encountered(overheating,overdosing,coral competition etc) along the way.



Well said and everything you said is very true. But would you agree that the percentage of tanks that make it to 2 or 3 years pale in comparison to the majority that only last 6-12months?

The hardest part for me is to find someone to take care of my 3 tanks when I go on vacation..I find myself worrying about my tanks..

It does require some time, but I don't think it's difficult as long as you keep up with the maintainence. There's also a big learning curve from going from starting a tank to having a successful reef system with thousands of dollars invested in our systems and corals.

The hard part is knowing when to stop..lol

some of us just never learn this part

People say this hobby is hard because they are stuck about fifteen years in the past, but then again, back then keeping freshwater fish wasn't all that easy either.

Now you can go on the internet to find out how to solve whatever problems you encounter, back then you had to hope someone at the pet store had heard a story about someone who got through whatever difficulty it was without needing to take their whole tank apart. The equipment is better, the information available in books is better (I have an old book on keeping aquariums and it says that live rock is a bad idea, that it should only be used by experienced reef keepers in established tanks so that the fish might pick it clean of life, then removed before it could foul the water). Back then reef keeping was hard. Now, it's less hard.

Ah, yes, but going back even further I remember the 'good 'ol days' of salt water tanks with 'lovely' bleached coral skeletons.

Back in the day (talking early 80's) if you could manage to keep a few mushrooms and zoas in a 50g plus tank you were a 'reef god'. I remember building my first reef tank/stand from an article in a German magazine. Custom built 15g glass tank with an 10g 'elevated sump' (pumped water into the elevated sump using a canister filter, trickle filtering through layered trays of lava rock chips/sand and then back to the display tank using gravity). Come to think of it, this may have been the early forerunner of what we now call a 'Nano' tank. Ran it continuously for nearly 4 years with 'shrooms and Zoas until I moved overseas.

Now its possible to keep SPS in tiny little tanks. What a huge change...

The previous 2 posts is just what I was talking about! Back then it was harder because of the lack of knowledge, equipment available etc.

I try and buld all setups to have a 9 day unattended operation window. That encompasses a 5 day work week (of vacation) and both weekends on each side. ATo and a proper system will do.




Yes I agree fresh water fish are hard to keep. I haev killed all fresh water fish I have ever tried to keep except the recent turtle/fish tank of my sons.

But 15 years ago (1995 ?????) --- NOT --- Mid to Late 1980's saw an explosion of well maintained and relatively easy reef tnks. Berlin style wet/dry's with mogule based 175w MH was top of the line and at that point in time those setups keept corals alive -- have you ever seen wild collected LR from Hawaii???




Yes the hobby has grown by leaps and bounds from the 80's. My first reef was a DIY built in the late 80's and was a full blown reef. Wouldn't do things the same way I did back then but it was still a sucess.

I think both these statements are correct. The availability of information has been the key to progress for the majority. When I first became interested in marine aquariums 25 years ago, my knowledge came from books. There was no club in my area and the local fish stores knew nothing. I bought books with my pocket money, many written in the 1970's (CW Emmens etc..). For sure, at the time better quality protein skimmers and halide lighting were becoming available but at relatively huge expense. Starting hobbyists used air driven undergravel filters with crushed coral, T8 lighting, tap water and bleached coral skeletons. With big water changes, hardy fish could be kept but the smallest slip up obviously resulted in disaster.

The publishing of The Reef Aquarium by Charles Delbeek and Julian Sprung was for me the beginning of access to quality information. Interestingly, this about coincided with the rise of home internet and here we are......

information is 90% of the puzzle, with actual equipment advances being the other 10% - especially in the areas of lighting and filtration.

I've had one person (when i worked at a pet store) tell me that keeping saltwater in anything under a 55g was "impossible". At that time i'd already had my tank set up and running for 6 months with only a few hiccups (like bryopsis...)

Really, it's the understanding of what the animals actually need that has led to such huge improvements in the hobby.

Actually, I think most people who say the hobby is hard say it because they never did independent research and trusted the word of their LFS.

The problem?. My LFS has no idea what aiptasia is.

2 + 2 = 1. Oh, wait, maybe its 3?. Hmmmmmmm. (It's really 4..) but the point is, LFS need to get more educated in this area before selling .

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...p;#entry2741015

that is why people think its hard. They dont read or educate themselves well enough and then hear horror stories like the above link.

I remember when people would say it's impossible to keep a saltwater tank in anything less than 30 gallons. Now I keep SPS in a 3 gallon and it still blows my mind.

If there's anything that this hobby would teach me, it would be BEING PATIENT. In an age where everything seems like a click away, I guess going through lengths of testing, months of cycling, tinkering, adjusting, etc. really seems like challenging. This is a hobby where not unless someone has tons of money to take care of it for themselves to enjoy and look (but then what's the point, the person can just go to a LFS, thats why its a hobby), would involve lots of money, time, and dedication. But when it gets going, its just all worth it.

Thats why I am thankful for FORUMS like these where one can almost find an identical scenario and try to get help from there or their experiences. I cannot be thankful enough for all the advice I got from newbies and experts who saved me money and time.

I know I still have a long way to go in this hobby, but being patient (knowing when to buy or not to buy fishes/corals...and lots of reading + forum)I am confident that I could finally call all my tanks a success and a true labor of love.

that bug's the hell out of me even thou they know aiptasia is bad

they can care less they still sell frag's loaded with them on purpose to save on labor

I'd say having a tank for 2 years is pretty freaking awesome.

This hobby can be extremely hard!

When xenia or GSP run over your tank so much that you can't do anything people just give up on it.

When you get ich and lose your fav fish it's very tough and makes you want to quit the hobby.

Aiptasia stingin everything makes you want to pull your hair out.

WC's and other maintenece is a huge pain if you are busy at work or school. Also if you don't do them your tank suffers.


It can be very hard.

When you wake up in the morning and you're entire tank is dead, it's hard to start over.

2 years is just starting to get broken in .

9+ years on my last 50g before I went 'Nano'.

Some Euro tanks have been running continuously for over 25 years.