have you noticed the curving of the larvae tails yet? Pretty good sign of meta happening

Um the black clowns are probly a year and a half old. Its funny bc last night i caught them sleeping togrther but when i woke up they were on oppisite sides. They were together for about two months. Sharrung an anemone and what not they i was given two really small juviniles and they kinda all seperated then i had an ick breakout and lost a juvi. A week later my wife bought me
a clown the same size and the one who is submissive now teamed up with new arrival and was beating up te other black so i removed it and put in my 30 reef for two weeks which already contained a mated pair so the black chilled in my frogspawn. Then i got 3" clown in my 55 and the black that was in there got beat bad and wouldnt leave the back of the rockworrk till i captured him and put the black backtogether to where they are now.

Congrats on having 70 through day nine your definitly doimg something right

On some of the larger ones they are starting to hang out with their tails cocked to one side. It's funny to watch them as most are perfectly horizontal and others sit almost vertical in the water. Head up / head down... you would almost think it's dead but then it swims off normal.

I have very few that hang out on the glass - most sit in the middle of the tank and it's getting harder to tell just how many there are as I'm now keeping the tank fuller (almost 3/4 of a 10g) and with the water tinted they disappear in the green abyss. The thing is that they are sooo small - maybe 6 or 7 mm long - I can't imagine that head stripe is supposed to develop soon.

Chicago - just sounds like you need to give them some time. As long as they are killing one another they should eventually come around.

Thanks ill keep you
posted but man is that exciting for you. I cant wait till i get some luck lol

now is it after meta that your outta te woods as far as losing nemore?

I wish... still have to focus on water quality and transition in feeding. I am starting to ween the larvae off rotifers to crushed foods. I just hope that they are getting enough from it. If they don't do well then I'm going to move to othomine or coral frenzy - those foods both have great proven track records.

My logic is that I'm controlling the diet and giving them the very best foods - However I'm not an expert at making sure they are getting the right amount of each of those foods. I sometimes second guess the decision to make my own but only time will tell.

In the end I just want strong healthy fish that will do well in anyones tank.

Also - I don't know if I've mentioned but the daily water changes are a lot to keep up with. Not only am I changing water in two rotifers buckets daily but also the larvae tank. To refill the water in the larvae tank I am dripping it back in with a airline and control valve - maybe 1 to 2 drips per minute. So it takes a few minutes to pull the water but a couple of hours to put it all back.

Day 10 - Well another milestone - double digits! Considering my first attempt went only 4 days - I'm feeling pretty good about getting to 10 days right now.

Up until now I've been using a desk lamp to light the larvae tank and it's served me well. I was contemplating adding more light and trying to figure out the best way to do it. Then this morning I was in one of my boys rooms and noticed the 10g tank with the eclipse hood that hasn't been run for a couple of years. I wondered if the bulb in it would even work. So I took it... the kid won't mind. I pulled the pump and the rest of the filtration built into the hood and set on the larvae tank. Soon as I plugged it in the light came on - to my surprise the larvae activity doubled. I've been watching for the last half hour to see if the additional light would have any ill effect but they seem to appreciate it. They are hunting more and swimming faster. The larvae also seem to be more dispersed. They are not all swimming at the top of the water beneath the light - they appear to be more active throughout the entire tank. So far this appears to be a good move.

Here are a couple of 10 day old shots...

so around how many do you have...?

man thats cool. They still look like aliens but at least on the second picture you can see orange coming in on his back. ( or it might be a reflection) but either way swell job.

I built a huge wall with live rock breaking the black clown tank in half forcing them to be near each other and im going to see what happens. So far the dominate one is attacking the other but the other is submitting every time so lets see what happens. the snowflakes are spending quite a bit of time away from the pot today which i didn't want to see but i dunno.

Hey bro!!! Last night it looked like I still had about 70 or so... I tinted the water a little darker today since I changed the lighting. I can spot about 20 of them swimming near the glass so my best guess would be someplace in the 50 - 70 range.






Just give them time - that's about all you can do. May take some time for them to re-establish that bond.

updates on meta?

Not yet man.. not yet.. I just did a water change and fed and I could swear one wiggled as it swam over to the food but didn't see it do it again. So no real exciting updates for day 11 - except that they are hanging in there.

Thats exciting enough. So the cuttibg the tank in half seems to be goin kinda as planned. Theyre bickering at each other alot more but then settle down so we shall see. The picassos are in the pot cleaning so another mile stone

Day 12 and the larvae are still looking good. No deffinate signs of meta yet.

On another note my active pair had also laid a large nest nest today - 2nd one since I hatched out the larvae that I'm raising now. Think I'm going to attempt to raise this clutch as well and see if my numbers improve with what I've learned this time around.

How pete doin buddy?

so its very weird but the last two days the snows were not really hanging out in the pot so i moved it to the left side of the tank where the heater is and where they've been hanging out and immediately they've been following each other and the female will go over a spot and the male practicing as if practicing laying so i dunno but hopefully some sign lol.

My male snnowflake is doing the same thing... hopefully we'll bothhave snow spawns here soon!

If you want I can send you some otomine a and b. I use it and mine usually hit meta at 6 days. The thing holding them back right now is probably the food source. They have to hunt/eat constantly just to survive. If you want to speed things up get flake food and grind it up(very very fine powder. Kinda like peprica sp?) Or go the route of bbs. I have a pair of platinums and wyoming whites I am working on now. We'll see what happens. A trick to rotifers is to add a sponge filter to their tank. Will give you a lil wiggle room with water changes on their tanks.

I would take you up on the otomine...

Let me ask you--- are you doing the bbs? or are you going straight from rots to overlapping otomine / rots then to just otomine?

I've been grinding food with a pestel and mortar - super fine and they are hitting it. I've been doing that a couple times of day. Should I be doing it more often?

Hey, Pickle Reed has a otohmine starter package for $30. gives you all the different kinds and size.

Funny you should mention it... I was just on the site. I have a couple of feelers out to some friends. Not sure if the starter is the way to go. I mean I don't know if I'll get good use out of all of the sizes. I was looking at the 2kg bag of B.

I'm curious if these guys are using baby brine shrimp or if they are successful going from rots only to rots/ otohome then just otohime. Or if the BBS is a better step before going to the otohime.

Well today is officially 2 weeks since the hatch.

Mixed news - my numbers are definitely way down - I have 12 - 15 left. I'm convinced as rrcg50 stated that it's the quality of the food.

Have some otohime being sent out - thank you rrgc! and I'll see how that goes for the next clutch. I also think that my temps may be too low in the larvae tank and will bump that up to 81-82 for the next hatch.

No prob.
You will notice with those of us that are sick enough to do this. And I mean that in the most sincere way because I am right there with you. Its becomes a passion and we actually like the challenge.
You will have losses and in nature they do to. As a matter of fact only about 1 in every hatch survive in nature. So 12 to 15 is still beating the odds. Keep chugging at it and you will get better every time.
Also don't hessitate to utilize the resources on here.
Alex, glen, me and others will always be glad to lend a hand.

Right on.. the support has been overwhelming and the challenge is exactly what's got me hooked right now.

Allright... so I have an idea... I ran it past rrcg earlier and think I'm going to give it a shot. Once my rack is complete I'm going to start moving my broodstock onto it and since I'm moving my mating pair I'm risking them halting production for a little while - which honestly I'm Ok with.

So here is the thought. I have another pair - snow male and ocellaris female that have yet to produce. I tried to pair my snow with my now producing female but she was entirely to territorial. So the idea is once I set up the new tank to acclimate and introduce my snow male first then to introduce my now spawning female. If they click I could start having snowflakes much sooner. If they don't - no loss - I can put the original male back in with her. My logic being that with the pair being in a new tank with no nems or rocks that there won't be anything for her to be territorial over.

Is that crazy?

WOW I just read your whole thread. I never read up on breeding.I just assumed the eggs hatched and you added rotifiers from a bottle and that was it. Alot sure goes into this.I will tag this thread.

Welcome along... I'm trying to post as much detail as I can. I thought reefing was addicting until I got into this.

The little ones are still plugging away - I'd expect they'd be further along developmentally if I had the proper food. Looks like I will be getting some otohime a and b in the mail this week and my rots numbers are starting to pick back up.

I'm a little concerned about the current batch of eggs because the anemone spread itself right over the top of them today. Hasn't stretched that direction in month but go figure - large nest and he has to bother them. Hopefully the pair is Ok with it... otherwise the eggs may be gone by morning.

Day 15 and still going...

Good news is the otohime shipment is on the way and I'll have it on time for my next clutch!

cool, the little guys still havent gone through meta yet?

They still look like tadpoles... but active and eating, look the same no color changes or at least not much. I'm sure it's the diet. If they make it long enough I'll try some the otohime on them and see if it doesn't help.

And how is ol pete doing. Coloring up nicely? You should try bbs thats what joyce j wilkersons book recommended. You should be able to get some eggs from a local fish store.

Alright weirdedt thing i noticed today. Since i have been power feeding krill and mysis once a day with cyclopeze three or four a day m clowns are all brightening up. Now this obviously is a sign that their getting the proper nutrition however my semi picassos are the strangest. They are like glowing deep orange and for the first time today i noticed that they have the same blue highlights where the white meets the orange so im only thinking maby theres some snow in there gene pool.

Ne thoughts?


Ne thoughts?

I'm going to give it a go with the otomine and try it without the bbs... seems like plenty of people have had great success rates with just the rots and otohime. If my numbers are still low after this next clutch I'll order the bbs - just one more thing to look after and culture though. I'd deffinately have to mail order it. Here where I live I have to mail order most of my supplies. There is a fish store in town but it's mostly fresh water and the salt water department consists of 2 tanks. Beyond them the next nearest one is about an hour drive.

Old Pete? LOL... OK I guess?

I really don't know about picasso / snow deal as every Picasso I've ever seen was a true perc and I thought all snows where ocellaris. That's deffinately the cyclopeeze coloring them up - it's amazing what happens when you start feeding them a few times a day.

i never feed cyclopeez specifically but make my own frozen and the fish are shaped like me(n ice and plump). the colors on them look great. i think the best thing you can do is feed a balanced diet. power feeding them will help get things started but after a few weeks it kills a reef system(too much nutrients) i am a once a day feeder and never had a problem

color looks good to me

my 2 breeders

maby it was yours or one of Christos threads haha from one of the first spawns there was only one survivor and it was named pistol Pete but maby i have yours and Christos mixed up lol.

Yea I know that picassos are percs and snows are occ but maby there were mixed somewhere along the line. I bought these as just plain percs from a store but there stripe pattern suggests semi picassos and now with the blue coming in I thought only snows has that kind of color

rrgc - Very nice colors... I've been rotating 4 different foods and a mix of my own frozen mix made from uncooked store bought seafoods. They really seem to like it. My fish do have cyclopeeze in their diet and seem to really enjoy it. I give it on occassion as more of a treat. I used to give them the dry but it scattered all over the tank and I wondered how much they actually got. So I purchased an ice cube tray that makes small cubes... then mix the dry cyclopeeze in RO/Di, then freeze the mix in the small ice cube trays. Then I just feed the cubes to the tank. The fish pick at it as it thaws and less of the cyclopeeze is dispersed all over the tank.

I have also cut back on the feeding for my breeding pair. I am however more careful about what they get. I try to avoid too much shrimp in the diet - I've read it can make the eggs hard and backed away from it. My hatches seem to go well at this point so I just assume keep the pair on the diet they are on.

Chicago - I think pistol pete is GTAquatic's

I think your right. I bounce around the three of your threads and try to pick up as much information as possible so when i have my lucky day i at least have some sort of knowledge lol.

couple questions tho.

1. Are 5.5 gallon tanks sutable for larval to growout. (obviously something larger when they reach several months).
2. are you adding green water to your larval tanks Once a day or more?
3. Is having alot of diatoms on the glass and sand going to discourage breeding?

I was told to go with a 10g for larvae - it just makes it easier. As time progresses I can add more water and increase the air circulation. As of yesterday I would say I have about 7 gallons going. You wouldn't get much time out of the 5 gallon. Besides if you manage to get a large amount of fry to survive and 5 gallon would be very difficult to maintain water quality in. I have been doing water changes daily and since last week I've started putting back in more then I'm taking out.

I tinted the water twice a day while feeding rotifers. It was two fold for me - for one you want to the rotifers in the with fish to have enough to eat and second the darker water dims the lighting making it less stressful on the fry.

I'm not sure about diatoms - but I was told algae was fine and sometimes encoraged. I was told not worry about green walls or even cyano for that matter. One reference stated that the algae gave the fish the impression that food would be available for the fry. If it has any merrit to it... I do not know.

i actually used to use 1 gallon pickle jars for hatching, i know use 5.5 gallons and it seems easier for me because i do not have to add a bazillion rots for the fish to bump into them, once thru meta and eating well they get bumped to a 20 gallon grow in tank...used that on purpose

So you are hitting meta in about a week is that right? So after a week you are moving them to the 20 with I'm going to assume a sponge filter?

after a week to ten days. as long as they are all stable and eating the oto is when i move. usually after the last head stripe forms i wait a few more days then over they go. i also read that you are slow dripping the water back in. i read somewhere as long as you are not pouring the new water in you can speed the process up. so i usually pour my new waterchange water into a cup and let it overflow over the edges. this way no clowns get bumped around. takes me about 10 to 15 minutes to do the changes afetr meta, before i kinda run it at a fast drip rate (slow peaing stream)

It's funny because you talk to ten different people and get ten completely different ways of doing things. I guess I'm using a mix of what everyones given me and tweaking it to find what will work for me.


At the rate my current clutch is going my next clutch is going to catch them and pass them!

This is how fast I do my water changes too. No dripping over here and no problems.

Noted... thanks for the input!

This thread and all the other ones about clownfish rock!! Im buying a snowflake clownfish from hyperboy and trying to pair it with my picasso.

great thread

Thanks... wish I had more to update. I counted 13 this morning before leaving for work - they are getting more active it seems but I still can't make out head stripes. In the mean time I'm getting set up for a friday night hatch. I hope that I get many more of those babies to make it.

So this was interesting...

Through my local reef club I found out that our LFS owner started as a breeder and spent 10 years breeding clowns. I was in that part of town on a break today so figured I'd stop in and pick his brain a little. He did agree that the delay in Meta was most likely a nutritional issue and warned me to keep an eye out for any other defects in the fish. But he also mentioned he would be happy to buy my healthy fish once they where old enough.

Then I asked him about picassos and if he could get a hold of one for me. He said - no. I was a little suprised at the answer because he stated he could get me anything else. When I asked why he stated that picassos are misbars (which I kind of knew) that resulted that way because of some sort of difficiency in the breeding process. When I asked then what about snowflakes he said they are different as snowflakes had been selected and bred for wider bands to get the desired traits.

This left me a little confused since people like Doni (Doni's Reef) breed picassos using fish that have that particular misbar charectoristic and produce a percentage of offspring with the picasso pattern. So this would lead me to believe it is a genetic trait. Is it possible that the initial result came from some sort of chemistry / nutritional abnormality? Possibly - but once they have the charectoristic aren't they able to pass it to the offspring? I would think so.

I wanted to ask if it was that he couldn't get me one or that he wouldn't get me one due to his idea or belief of how the fish came to be. I mean I can go online and buy one in 5 minutes... obviously someone with a vendors license could get a hold of one as well.

I had a bunch of other questions for him but the whole picasso conversation left my head spinning and I called it a day.

Sounds like as a breeder he was offended that someone screwed up, liked the result and capitalized on it. That is quite strange.

This is out of Coral Magazine - http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/li...-rare-clownfish

"The PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish is not a “designer clownfish” or a new species. It is, quite simply, an aberrant wild-caught Premnas biaculeatus. There is some debate about whether the pattern, or misbarring, is genetic or environmental. “I doubt that this Maroon clownfish is a mutant,” says Martin Moe, author of The Marine Aquarium Handbook: Beginner to Breeder.

“The term mutant indicates a changed genetic basis for the misbarring, but most likely, in my opinion, a very unusual environmental or biological stimulus during the larval period created these patterns.”

Nonetheless Moe thinks the pattern may be reproducible. “I guess the best chance for setting such a trait in a strain of this species would be to breed it with other Maroons from the same general area where that predisposition might be present in the population and see what happens.”

Sounds like, he wouldn't based on his belief. I plan on getting a pair from Doni Marie. Her clowns look great and very healthy.

Glad you had better luck getting snowflakes.