water changes should be between 10 to 20 percent a lilttle trick that was taught to me was to use a seasoned sponge filter and never had a problem with amonia, i do sometimes sell the babies locally but mostly just trade for supplies
i have 9 pairs
2 are breeding
1occ
1onyx
i have
wyoming white
ora grade a picasso
snowcasso
platinums
bnW
rotifer are easy as long as you dont mess with them and keep feeding them, also keep the salinity low, i dont even use a air stone anymore. i keep mine at .014 and my fry tank at .19, just try and feed the rots twice daily, even better is a continous feed like a dripper
if you have any questions pls ask if i can help i will

Hey right on... I appreciate your advise.

So far I've been pretty lucky with a lot of experienced breeders sharring what works for them. The more details the better.

I did pull about a gallon once I got home from work tonight and started dripping back in the replacement water. I had to rescue 3 fish from my bucket though as they got sucked into the hose. (here I thought I was beeing careful)

I have been slowly bringing down the salinity in my rots buckets - another breeder - GT said he kept his at .015 - I've been feeding twice a day and pulling 1/4 daily with feeding and water changes. It was pretty interesting to read that the rots themselves don't offer much in the way of nutritional value but it's what they consume that makes the difference. I am feeding the rots nano at this time but may look at stepping up to the roti grow + on my next purchase from Reed.

This weekend I'll be looking into getting a seive - looks pretty simple to make one but I can't seem to find the right mesh. Everything I've run across is nylon and I think I rather get the plastic or poly material instead. I'm also looking at one seive in the 53 micron range and a second to act as a prefilter in the 200 micron range. I've noticed on the coffee filters that you get a lot of additional crappage in the rots.

Haha yep, though I certainly did take a few years off

Guess I got ahead of myself yesterday as TODAY is day 4. The fry hatched on Mother's Day. I guess I wanted them to be further along then they actually where.

hey pickle thanks again for the advise you gave me. Since then i have removed all of the rock from my snowflake tank and most from my Picasso tank. I also added clay pots to all three tanks. The Picassos are taking to it every so often and snow flakes will dart in and out of it from time to time. I raised the temps and have been slowly dropping to salinity so hopefully my increased efforts will pay off. show us some pics when you get a chance of those little guys

Right on - hope they spawn soon for you!

I attempted to get some pics last night but they are still too small. The quick movements, green water and dim lighting doesn't exactly make for good photos. I hope that next week I'll be able to get some good stuff posted. Just got to make it that far first.

OK... so looking into sponge filters for Fry / Grow out tanks - Can't find too much documented - any of you breeders using them? PRO's / CON's?

So I did a little more reading up on the sponge filters at work today (iknowdon'ttellanyone) and it looks like they can be a pretty valuable piece to the grow out system - looks like most people use them after meta and they are good for keeping trates and amonia in check.

I've read they should be rinsed out regularly but I'd have to assume that you would only want to rinse them out in cold water and lightly as you'd probably wash away any of the beneficial bacteria.

Morning Day 5 - passed up my last attempt but still too soon to celebrate - All the fry are eating well this morning and I'm feeling pretty good about this clutch.


The Oc pair is hard at work taking care of the new eggs and my Sno / Oc pair is working extra hard here lately to keep their pot clean. I bumped up their temps a bit and am starting to feed them until they wont eat any more.

there ya go. My female snowflake has taken to the pot now that i removed all the rock. The male likes to swim all over but he goes in from time to time lol. I'm hoping for eggs soon though. they definitely seem big enough. The black clowns are about the same size but one is definitely submissive to the other and the more dominate one has taken to the pot.

After rots are you turning to baby brine for the fry ?

Right on... you are going to be glad the LR is gone the first time you go to pull the eggs. I would of easily had another 20+ fry had I been able to have the eggs hatch out in the larvae tank.

I'm doing a couple of things - contemplating the BBS and my own mix - I started reading about what a lot of people are doing over at mofib and some skip the BBS all together and feed Otohime (sp?) A or B then progress to C as the fry get larger and still others are using what they allready have at home ground up. So I went and purchased a mortar and pestel then used a combination of ingredients; dry cyclopeeze, flake food, regular pellets and veggie pellets. Using the mortar and pestel I ground the ingredients to a fine powder, almost a dust and started sparingly adding them to the tank. First day I did it, day 3, there was really no reaction to the food at all and that was expected, then last night when I added the mix the larvae swarmed towards it.

A lot of breeders are weening their fry off of live foods from rots and bbs by the time meta hits and I would think that the nutitional value of the mix is better then just the BBS. I'm half tempted to skip the BBS though and stick with the dry food mix if the larvae continue to go for it. Being this is day 5 I am still monitoring my rots and keeping the levels up in the fry tank as well.

Another dry food that was highly recomended was Coral Frenzy - You still have to grind or seive the larger particles but a lot of breeders reported success using it.

good job so far bro. Like i said before i have been through multiple scenarios and i can usually get you the answer. If i dont know the answer ill sure find it for you. Keep it up

Thanks man.. you haven't led me wrong yet.

On the home front I'm really suprised how much the Mrs is getting into it now. She never really appreciated the reef and corals like I did, but she is all about the breeding and what's cool is she is learning along with me. I'm going to have to get her a pair of her own before this is all said and done.

I'll tell you what I hate right now... watter changes on the fry tank! Man it stinks. I read about someone squeegeeing the bottom of the tank and siphoning out the crud so I thought I would try it. Oh yeah... great idea, first pass and I threw all stuff on the bottom of the tank into the water column. Not going to that again.

Then after that I get to spend 20 minutes playing fish rescue while I search the bucket for anything that might of got sucked up the tube. Man there has to be a better way.

Here are a couple of pictures - so hard to get anything decent still as they are all so small.

Top Down:



And here are some close up of a sections of that pic:








As you can see they are complete alienz still. When I look through the side of the tank I can see them at all levels from the top to the bottom. Just wish I could get a better shot of it.

Aliens maybe but still very inspiring. I follow all these threads that some day I will be settled to a point I am comfortable with starting a breeding endeavor.

You'll never be ready and honestly the true learning comes from just doing it. You can read until your head spins and you still won't feel like you are ready to do it. I say go for it... just know going in that it's a learning experience and you will make mistakes... I've made plenty of them and I'm sure I'll make plenty more. Hell - I haven't had a successful batch yet. I have high hopes for this one - but still a long way from declaring victory.

I am not patient. More photos!

LOL... I need them to grow more.

I was just watching them and realized I haven't given them any crushed food this evening. The tank was calm - not a lot of movement so I figured it was a good time to see if they were really going for the mix. I sprinkled some in and almost instantly they all woke up. I saw fish lunging towards the food particles in the water and the total tank activity deffinately picked up. I have some that will jet 5 - 6 inches across the tank or shoot up from the bottom of the tank to the surface.

Think I'll start bumping up the dry feedings.

Cool. Keep posting pics, hopefully they keep growing!

Amen Brother... Amen

I suppose I could tell if they where growing if I didn't sit and watch them constantly!

Day 6 - Business as usual this morning - tried to get an idea of how many fry I actually still have but there is just no telling. I don't think that I'm any where near the 140 that I started out with. I would guess that I have in the neighborhood of 100 fish still.

Next week will be the next big hurdle - Meta - Right now they look like the pic above from a top down view but from the side of the tank they look Like a bunch of swimming silver bellies. I have to believe that's a good thing and those are full bellies.

you need to tint the water a bit darker than that. Remember when rothifer go without food they stress out and start dropping cysts before they die. When the rots run out of food they do not serve a nutritional value for the fry as they have nothing to transfer over.

as far as a little easier method to clean the bottom for peeps on a budget here is what i did.
1. get a tooth brush used or new
2. cut the head off where the bristles are
3. drill a small hole in the top
4. get a piece of rigid tubing and superglue it into the hole.
5. place airline tubing onto the rigid tubing
6. suck the crap out of the tank without stirring everything up
7. repeat cleanup

this is how dark i initially tint the water. this is starry nights blennies


here is fire clown larvae at day 14. notice the lightly tinted water as they are getting weened off rotifers
http://s113.photobucket.com/albums/n222/GS...nt=P1070364.flv

Dude.. great post.. thank you!

I normally do keep the tint darker - That pic was taken right before feeding and after about a 1/2 gallon of fresh salt water went in the tank. I also brightened the photo and adjusted the contrast a bit in photoshop to show more of the fish.

BUT I don't keep it that dark. I guess it scared me from the get go when I over fed my rots and about lost them all. Got to find that sweet spot.

They are also taking to the dry foods really well. There is a definite increase in activity each time I feed and I can see the fry hitting the dry powder.

Great advice GT im going to keep that in mind. I have a phytoplankton starter disk with a nutrients feed i got from florida aqua farms but
where do you guys get your rots from?

I get mine at Reed Mariculture


In other news... Today is officially day 7!!! Next step is the big one though - Meta should happen sometime next week.

Meta is short for metamorphosis right? I would assume so.


Sweeet. Do they stand a better chance of surviving one they reach that point.

You are correct Metamorphasis is when they go through the physical change and actually go from looking like little alienz to looking like clowns. The body shape changes and they will start to develop head strips. They will start swimming like clown fish as well. If they don't have the proper conditions and nutrition they won't make it through that point.

Oh... and yes a lot of people call it a success once they pass through meta - I probably won't raise that flag though until I get them to a month.

Oh cool, thats what I figured

Oh so this is kinda of the make or break point for them? If conditions are perfect they will make it, if not they die.

Yep and it tells me if I need to go back to square one or not.

I know it's not fish... but it's related and it's progress:





Best part is the wife it out there sanding, filling and painting - because if it's coming in the house it has to be pretty.

Very cool.

I am guessing you are building your breeder set up.

How many tanks will fit and how many gallons is each tank.

Are you going to plumb them together?

That is if it is indeed what your building, could be an entertainment center for all I know.

You would be correct..

The top rack will hold 6 20g highs (I'm 6'3" and will need a step stool to get to them)
The middle will be for a grow out tank - for now that is a 40bdr.
The bottom rack will be for the sump - aaproximately 60 gallons.

All of which will be plumbed together.

Hey Pickle do you think a custom tank that is separated into 4 5 gal tanks plumbed to a sump would be too small for broodstock?

5 would be pretty tight. I'd make it a large sump though as you'd want to best possibly water quality for the broodstock. I was just looking at my 5.5 quarenteen tank and honestly don't see why it wouldn't work.

yea, these are odd shape. 8x14x10 all together and plumbed to a big sump. Just need to add a skimmer to it. have lr, pump heater, filter media.

congrats on getting through meta, thats a huge step. So as far as my clowns go the female snowflake spends almost all her time in the pot with the occasional trip around the tank. The male is in more often and most importantly after watching the basketball game i came in to them frantically cleaning the right side of the pot. They were constantly biting and tail wagging at the side of the pot so hopefully this is in preparation of a nest. I apologize for the crappy pictures i took it with a iphone because when i approach the tank they swim out and i didn't want to risk running for my digital and them stopping.
Click to view attachment

I'm not through meta yet... that's my next major hurdle.

Awesome!!! They deffinately sound like they are getting ready to get down to business. Keep me posted on the progress!

I would suggest getting rid of your sand bed.. as you can see it's only collecting crappage. I'd start siphoning it out with each water change. I never painted the bottom of my tanks but I think I may paint them white when I go to drill them next week. Bare bottom is so much easier and cleaner, especially when you are intentionally overfeeding your fish. The bottom of my tanks are starting to get covered with coraline except for one really clean spot just beneath my pairs nest. I can see my female rubbing her nose against her reflection... I think she is being protective of the nest.

Now when I do my water changes I just syphon all the detrious right out of the tanks with the water.




Sounds like you are ready to get started - are the dividers dark? I'd just be sure that the pairs couldn't see each other as it will be a distraction.

Yea even tho all three tanks are side by side the sides and backs of all tanks were painited black. Ill take the sand into consideration. I do have 6 hermits and one very large turbo snail in the snow tank so we shall see. I hope they lay soon. The cleaning started just after about a week of me increasing temps, decreasing salinity, and feeding more

Be ready for anything... Once I made those changes my pair laid within a week to 2 weeks and I hadn't even reached the peramiters that I was advised to get to. If I recall my temps where at 83 - 84 and my salinity was around 1.021 - 1.022.

I just recently bumped up the temps on my sno / oc pair and they are spending much more time in the pot. Not a lot of cleaning just yet - but I'm expecting them to start anytime.

So i have more good news and some off topic bad news. First for the good. The mle snowflake is spendimg almost every second by the females side an is being attacked if he isnt cleaning lol. They spend almost all there time in or swimming aroumd the back of the pot. If this comtinies ill definitly need your advice for starting a rot culture. In other news with the black clowns i may be afraid i habe two females. Because of all there time between switing mates and tanks i think theyve become both females although every once in a while when they are near eachother one waggle in submision. I may give it some more time but i think i may try to go to a lfs an trade one in for a small black clown.

Now for the bad unclown news. This applies to my 55 reef tank

Ill give you some background info so you understand my feelings. My roomate had a huge colt coral he fragged many
times for me but they never stuck with the coral glue and i have no idea where they went. I finally i found one small frag that attached to the bottom of a rock that my anemone was attached too. I moved everythin and rearranged my rock so the colt was up near the light. Hes been fine and growing until
i just saw that my annoying pencil urchin that i have been wanting to get rid of forever because he moves entire rock pile had moved to the top and disloged my nice happy colt. I now cannot fond it and my roomate moved a month ago so i no longer have a beautiful purple colt

How old are the black clowns? and how long did you have them seperated. I was told that if you leave a clown alone long enough that it will turn female however I would suspect that if they are both females you would have some aggression issues.

It deffinatlely sounds like your female is cracking the whip on your male snnow - It would be awesome if they lay for you soon. My pair seems to only leave the pot to eat now and as soon as they are done eating my male goes back to cleaning. You have some time when it comes to the rots though. I wouldn't expect much from the first two clutches or so as it isn't uncommon for them to eat the eggs until they figure out what they are supposed to be doing.

That sucks about the colt and the urchin - I've never kept either one in my tanks. I've always read that they are reef safe but that they can be a pain in the arse as they will knock stuff over and carry stuff around.

This morning is day 9 - and deffinately don't have the numbers that I've started with... I would say that I probably have 1/2 of the original 140. I am noticing that the ones I still have are the larger of all that hatched. From day one you could see that some of the clowns where larger from the start. I don't know if it's same clowns but you can see a difference in that some are just larger and fuller looking as compared to the others.

Day 9 Pic - I know - I really need a better lens for this.



And one of the new guys... can't wait to get him a picasso:

Looking good, my breeding setup is ready to go. lighting 16hs, sg. 1.020, temp 84. I got a female ocellaris and female perc coming tomorrow. Gonna try to pair the O up with a snowflake and perc with picasso or onyx.

Sweet let me know how the pairing goes... I initially tried to pair my snow with the female that I have laying now. She wasn't so accepting, I would up putting her back with her original mate. Then I got lucky with the second female I tried to pair him with, my snow was a brave little guy. He was only 3 or 4 months old and swam straight up to a full grown 2 year old Ocellaris - she didn't even flinch though.

I'm curious how it will go in the smaller spaces. I would deffinately get the smaller ones in first then add the females.

So whens the meta happening???

Could start anytime - I've read about clutches starting on day 8 and others hitting sometime between days 11 and 14. You just never know.

Cool cool. I assume you are prepared and everything for that haha?

All you can do is keep the water peramiters correct and feed them so they have the energy to survive the change.

I have taken down some of the paper I had blacking out the front of the tank. The fish don't even seem to notice. They are swimming past it just lilke any other part of the tank. I like it because it's easier to see what's going on from the side then it is looking top down.

On another now - my male snowflake has seriously taken to cleaning the pot today. I've even caught him brshing against it with his belly the same way my other male does when he is fertilizing eggs. I feel like I should buy him a magazing or something.