Full Version: ammonia, nitrite and nitrate help! new tank!
I am totaly new at this hobby
and.....well i am a little confused...
i added the salt water a week and a half ago
i added cured live rock and a damsel a week ago, today i checked all my parameters and they are as follow:
Nitrate 20ppm
Hardnes 9' dKH
Phosphate 0ppm
Ph 8.2
Ammonia....a color between 0ppm and 0.25 ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Calcium 340 mg/L
i have been adding dry bacteria (it comes in a little bottle and is sort of a bran thing)
is my cycle just starting?
why am i getting a 20 ppm nitrate reading?/
please help all replies will be appreciated!!!.......
i'm still new too but i know if your ammonia and nitrite is at 0 then thats good. as for nitrate you can probably do some waterchanges and that will slowly go down. dont you have a build in filter tank (cube) or a sump? you get get come cheato to take in some of the nitrate (cheato takens in nitrate and grows so i'll absorb some of ur nitrate)
i believe is normal when your tank is at ammonia, nitrate, nitrite o phosphate 0
how long have this tank been cycling?>
i believe is normal when your tank is at ammonia, nitrate, nitrite o phosphate 0
how long have this tank been cycling?>
You went too fast... Some people swear by these bacterial cultures, but they either know really well how to use them or they know when to use them... But it seems that still many others get themselves into trouble.
So, first off
.
Next, it sounds like you need to do some research on the nitrogen cycle. Basically, as waste enters your system the first step is breaking it down into ammonia. From there it gets converted into nitrite, and then into nitrate. Various organisms are able to use the nitrate, which produces waste, or the nitrate gets converted into nitrogen. This is a serious over-simplification though.
If any part of this process is out of balance, you end up with funky parameters. If you have any trace of ammonia detectable by your test kits you should do a large water change immediately, say 30-50%. Remember that ammonia becomes exponentially more toxic as the pH rises. Any ammonia at pH 8.2 is pretty bad.
Personally I would stay away from the bacterial additions and either continue performing 25% water changes every other day (depending on what size tank this is) or removing the fish to let things happen naturally. Overall if you're showing nitrates, then the cycle has begun, but whether or not it's able to process the bio-load is another question. Obviously the system isn't able to process the ammonia created by that fish. That's why it's recommended that you add things very slowly and over time. Most people would not recommend stocking anything in a tank within 2 weeks of adding a large quantity of quality live rock. There are some who will tell you to add fish immediately or within a week, but why risk it dying if you can just wait a few weeks and end up with a much more stable system capable of sustaining it's own cycle without the addition of bacterial cultures or necessary frequent water changes to hold off the negative effects?
In the end it's your decision though. Do some more research and good luck.
So, first off
.Next, it sounds like you need to do some research on the nitrogen cycle. Basically, as waste enters your system the first step is breaking it down into ammonia. From there it gets converted into nitrite, and then into nitrate. Various organisms are able to use the nitrate, which produces waste, or the nitrate gets converted into nitrogen. This is a serious over-simplification though.
If any part of this process is out of balance, you end up with funky parameters. If you have any trace of ammonia detectable by your test kits you should do a large water change immediately, say 30-50%. Remember that ammonia becomes exponentially more toxic as the pH rises. Any ammonia at pH 8.2 is pretty bad.
Personally I would stay away from the bacterial additions and either continue performing 25% water changes every other day (depending on what size tank this is) or removing the fish to let things happen naturally. Overall if you're showing nitrates, then the cycle has begun, but whether or not it's able to process the bio-load is another question. Obviously the system isn't able to process the ammonia created by that fish. That's why it's recommended that you add things very slowly and over time. Most people would not recommend stocking anything in a tank within 2 weeks of adding a large quantity of quality live rock. There are some who will tell you to add fish immediately or within a week, but why risk it dying if you can just wait a few weeks and end up with a much more stable system capable of sustaining it's own cycle without the addition of bacterial cultures or necessary frequent water changes to hold off the negative effects?
In the end it's your decision though. Do some more research and good luck.
Welcome to NR.
+1 on the research aspect. Go to the library tab and click on nano reef articles. Your nitrogen cycle info can be found there.
I'm new as well and you can check my thread on the process. A few key pointers would be to read a lot, have some patience and the rest will follow. Good luck and also check out the beginners forum.
+1 on the research aspect. Go to the library tab and click on nano reef articles. Your nitrogen cycle info can be found there.
I'm new as well and you can check my thread on the process. A few key pointers would be to read a lot, have some patience and the rest will follow. Good luck and also check out the beginners forum.
ok okk thanks a lot for the reply!! 
i understand, but what do i do??? can i leave the damsel inside the tank,?? (by the way i have a biocube 29) do i keep adding the bacteria? when do i perform the first water change??, the damsel since the first day has been behaving very good she is eating and she swims a lot she seems healthy... somebody help mee!!
thanks a lott!! im new at this..but I am excited and i am willing to learn as much as possiblee
Well i guess the tank has been cycling since i added the live rock, a week ago.. i been feeding the damsel and i also added some food for it to decompose..
i understand, but what do i do??? can i leave the damsel inside the tank,?? (by the way i have a biocube 29) do i keep adding the bacteria? when do i perform the first water change??, the damsel since the first day has been behaving very good she is eating and she swims a lot she seems healthy... somebody help mee!!QUOTE (fcruz420 @ Mar 2 2010, 07:32 PM) 
Welcome to NR.
+1 on the research aspect. Go to the library tab and click on nano reef articles. Your nitrogen cycle info can be found there.
I'm new as well and you can check my thread on the process. A few key pointers would be to read a lot, have some patience and the rest will follow. Good luck and also check out the beginners forum.
+1 on the research aspect. Go to the library tab and click on nano reef articles. Your nitrogen cycle info can be found there.
I'm new as well and you can check my thread on the process. A few key pointers would be to read a lot, have some patience and the rest will follow. Good luck and also check out the beginners forum.
thanks a lott!! im new at this..but I am excited and i am willing to learn as much as possiblee
QUOTE (ALNN @ Mar 2 2010, 07:16 PM)
i'm still new too but i know if your ammonia and nitrite is at 0 then thats good. as for nitrate you can probably do some waterchanges and that will slowly go down. dont you have a build in filter tank (cube) or a sump? you get get come cheato to take in some of the nitrate (cheato takens in nitrate and grows so i'll absorb some of ur nitrate)
i believe is normal when your tank is at ammonia, nitrate, nitrite o phosphate 0
how long have this tank been cycling?>
i believe is normal when your tank is at ammonia, nitrate, nitrite o phosphate 0
how long have this tank been cycling?>
Well i guess the tank has been cycling since i added the live rock, a week ago.. i been feeding the damsel and i also added some food for it to decompose..
What you're describing sounds consistent with what I'd expect from a 1 week old tank with a damsel in it. You're tank should cycle relatively quickly since you have cured live rock, but it will still be a slow process as it adjusts to an increasing bioload (i.e. add things slowly...def don't add anything else while you're still getting ammonia). Many people these days advocate for cycling a tank without fish. I think it's mostly the old schoolers who advocate using a damsel. Damsels are used because they are "hardy"...it can probably tolerate that amount of ammonia - most other marine animals wouldn't. Like others have said, the typical cycle is ammonia spike, followed by nitrite spike, followed by nitrate spike. When you use cured live rock (and possibly live sand too?), you frequently bypass a large ammonia or nitrite spike. The little blip of ammonia you are seeing is likely the result of the damsel and your tank adjusting to that sort of bioload within the first week of cycling. The large nitrate spike is normal since you probably don't have anything in there to consume nitrate and haven't done a water change (which are the two ways of getting rid of it). I wouldn't worry about the nitrate until your ammonia zero's out. If you did a water change at this point, you might just prolong your cycle.
QUOTE (emanliame @ Mar 2 2010, 07:51 PM)
What you're describing sounds consistent with what I'd expect from a 1 week old tank with a damsel in it. You're tank should cycle relatively quickly since you have cured live rock, but it will still be a slow process as it adjusts to an increasing bioload (i.e. add things slowly...def don't add anything else while you're still getting ammonia). Many people these days advocate for cycling a tank without fish. I think it's mostly the old schoolers who advocate using a damsel. Damsels are used because they are "hardy"...it can probably tolerate that amount of ammonia - most other marine animals wouldn't. Like others have said, the typical cycle is ammonia spike, followed by nitrite spike, followed by nitrate spike. When you use cured live rock (and possibly live sand too?), you frequently bypass a large ammonia or nitrite spike. The little blip of ammonia you are seeing is likely the result of the damsel and your tank adjusting to that sort of bioload within the first week of cycling. The large nitrate spike is normal since you probably don't have anything in there to consume nitrate and haven't done a water change (which are the two ways of getting rid of it). I wouldn't worry about the nitrate until your ammonia zero's out. If you did a water change at this point, you might just prolong your cycle.
wow thanks a lot!!!
soo....am i doing fine? lol i feel like im a parent watching over his child lol, i actually have crushed coral as substrate (i bought it dry) i ve heard it is not as good as sand but i think i can handle everything with the siphon when i do the water changes.....for now ill follow your advise and i wont perform a water change right now, ill wait a week and check the parameters and then ill decide. thanks!!
emanliame... I respectfully disagree that doing a water change right now would prolong his cycle. The effects on his cycle are much less significant than the effects of toxic compounds on his livestock.
Jesus... As mentioned, ammonia is very bad for fish. Just because he doesn't show signs of ammonia poisoning right now doesn't mean that he can't go belly up. The best recommendation I can give right now (again) is:
1) Perform a large 30-50% water change immediately.
2) Stop dosing bacterial supplements. It isn't hurting your tank, but it's probably not helping either. Your tank will be less likely to establish an equilibrium if you keep dosing. You want stability.
3) Remove the fish to a QT tank or return it to the store for a few weeks. If you don't want to do that, the other option is to continue performing 20% water changes every other day or so to keep the ammonia & nitrite down. This is what is commonly referred to as a soft cycle, which helps animals stay alive during the cycling process.
4) Avoid adding anything to the tank for a few weeks with the exception of some herbivorous snails.
Again, good luck.
Jesus... As mentioned, ammonia is very bad for fish. Just because he doesn't show signs of ammonia poisoning right now doesn't mean that he can't go belly up. The best recommendation I can give right now (again) is:
1) Perform a large 30-50% water change immediately.
2) Stop dosing bacterial supplements. It isn't hurting your tank, but it's probably not helping either. Your tank will be less likely to establish an equilibrium if you keep dosing. You want stability.
3) Remove the fish to a QT tank or return it to the store for a few weeks. If you don't want to do that, the other option is to continue performing 20% water changes every other day or so to keep the ammonia & nitrite down. This is what is commonly referred to as a soft cycle, which helps animals stay alive during the cycling process.
4) Avoid adding anything to the tank for a few weeks with the exception of some herbivorous snails.
Again, good luck.
QUOTE (ajmckay @ Mar 2 2010, 08:31 PM)
emanliame... I respectfully disagree that doing a water change right now would prolong his cycle. The effects on his cycle are much less significant than the effects of toxic compounds on his livestock.
Jesus... As mentioned, ammonia is very bad for fish. Just because he doesn't show signs of ammonia poisoning right now doesn't mean that he can't go belly up. The best recommendation I can give right now (again) is:
1) Perform a large 30-50% water change immediately.
2) Stop dosing bacterial supplements. It isn't hurting your tank, but it's probably not helping either. Your tank will be less likely to establish an equilibrium if you keep dosing. You want stability.
3) Remove the fish to a QT tank or return it to the store for a few weeks. If you don't want to do that, the other option is to continue performing 20% water changes every other day or so to keep the ammonia & nitrite down. This is what is commonly referred to as a soft cycle, which helps animals stay alive during the cycling process.
4) Avoid adding anything to the tank for a few weeks with the exception of some herbivorous snails.
Again, good luck.
Jesus... As mentioned, ammonia is very bad for fish. Just because he doesn't show signs of ammonia poisoning right now doesn't mean that he can't go belly up. The best recommendation I can give right now (again) is:
1) Perform a large 30-50% water change immediately.
2) Stop dosing bacterial supplements. It isn't hurting your tank, but it's probably not helping either. Your tank will be less likely to establish an equilibrium if you keep dosing. You want stability.
3) Remove the fish to a QT tank or return it to the store for a few weeks. If you don't want to do that, the other option is to continue performing 20% water changes every other day or so to keep the ammonia & nitrite down. This is what is commonly referred to as a soft cycle, which helps animals stay alive during the cycling process.
4) Avoid adding anything to the tank for a few weeks with the exception of some herbivorous snails.
Again, good luck.
ok i have and idea
ill perfom a water change to reduce the ammonia levels on the aquarium (they are low) so i guess a water change tomorrow will do...ill be checking the parameters this subsequent days , maybe in one week ill have a more established tank and the ammonia levels will be gradually zero.... i also have a kent marine product (dont remember the name) which detoxifies the ammonia in the water... i read that is not that good to add it in the cycling process..so i guess ill wait and stick to the water changes.... thanks to both of you...i hope everything goes fine.... if you have some other tips you can give me, ill be glad to receive them....
Yeah please take the Damsel out. I remember when I started in this hobby a LONG time ago the LFS had me cycle my 55 gallon with like 5 or 6 damsels.
Your LR will be fine to cycle.
Your LR will be fine to cycle.
QUOTE (ajmckay @ Mar 2 2010, 09:31 PM)
emanliame... I respectfully disagree that doing a water change right now would prolong his cycle. The effects on his cycle are much less significant than the effects of toxic compounds on his livestock.
Jesus... As mentioned, ammonia is very bad for fish. Just because he doesn't show signs of ammonia poisoning right now doesn't mean that he can't go belly up. The best recommendation I can give right now (again) is:
1) Perform a large 30-50% water change immediately.
2) Stop dosing bacterial supplements. It isn't hurting your tank, but it's probably not helping either. Your tank will be less likely to establish an equilibrium if you keep dosing. You want stability.
3) Remove the fish to a QT tank or return it to the store for a few weeks. If you don't want to do that, the other option is to continue performing 20% water changes every other day or so to keep the ammonia & nitrite down. This is what is commonly referred to as a soft cycle, which helps animals stay alive during the cycling process.
4) Avoid adding anything to the tank for a few weeks with the exception of some herbivorous snails.
Again, good luck.
Jesus... As mentioned, ammonia is very bad for fish. Just because he doesn't show signs of ammonia poisoning right now doesn't mean that he can't go belly up. The best recommendation I can give right now (again) is:
1) Perform a large 30-50% water change immediately.
2) Stop dosing bacterial supplements. It isn't hurting your tank, but it's probably not helping either. Your tank will be less likely to establish an equilibrium if you keep dosing. You want stability.
3) Remove the fish to a QT tank or return it to the store for a few weeks. If you don't want to do that, the other option is to continue performing 20% water changes every other day or so to keep the ammonia & nitrite down. This is what is commonly referred to as a soft cycle, which helps animals stay alive during the cycling process.
4) Avoid adding anything to the tank for a few weeks with the exception of some herbivorous snails.
Again, good luck.
No disrespect taken man and I don't think you really even disagreed with me. Maybe I'm wrong, but based on my understanding of what goes on in the background of a cycle, it only seems logical that it will be slowed by a water change. I'm not saying you can't do it, or that it's going to extend the cycle to some ungodly amount of time, but I do think it will take longer. I didn't cycle my tank with a fish, and I wouldn't recommend it, but I don't think those who do use a damsel run with a soft cycle...so I have to assume their damsel is exposed to a certain amount of ammonia as well. Again, I don't see the point when there are ways that work just as well, but to each their own. I can't really talk to fish, so I honestly don't know how much it does or doesn't suck to be in a small amount of ammonia.
emanliame,
Actually I'm pretty much of the same persuasion. That performing water changes attributes to a longer cycle. However, I don't think the difference is much. Where I think most of the difference lies is in the stability of a cycle. Sort of a "give a man a fish vs. teach him to fish" principle. A N-R.com member did some experiments with this ( http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...27#topicoptions ).
Of course in this particular case I don't think it applies since he already has a fish in the tank. The welfare of this animal should take precedence over the time it takes his tank to cycle. I think an important principle that people often forget is that the toxicity of ammonia rises as pH rises (not by a linear correlation though). In freshwater systems, fish can actually tolerate a small amount of ammonia. A typical pH for a FW tank is around 6.5-7.5 depending on the type of fish you're keeping. Reef aquariums on the other hand maintain a pH from 7.8 to 8.4 or so. The same amount of ammonia found in water with a pH of 7.5 would be 5x more toxic in water with a pH of 8.3. So really, any detectable amount of ammonia in a marine tank is quite bad. Also take into consideration that these consumer-grade test kits really aren't very accurate in many cases. An undetectable amount with an API test kit is not really 0... A lab-grade test kit would show ammonia (really how can ammonia ever be zero since it's required to process into other compounds?).
Actually I'm pretty much of the same persuasion. That performing water changes attributes to a longer cycle. However, I don't think the difference is much. Where I think most of the difference lies is in the stability of a cycle. Sort of a "give a man a fish vs. teach him to fish" principle. A N-R.com member did some experiments with this ( http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...27#topicoptions ).
Of course in this particular case I don't think it applies since he already has a fish in the tank. The welfare of this animal should take precedence over the time it takes his tank to cycle. I think an important principle that people often forget is that the toxicity of ammonia rises as pH rises (not by a linear correlation though). In freshwater systems, fish can actually tolerate a small amount of ammonia. A typical pH for a FW tank is around 6.5-7.5 depending on the type of fish you're keeping. Reef aquariums on the other hand maintain a pH from 7.8 to 8.4 or so. The same amount of ammonia found in water with a pH of 7.5 would be 5x more toxic in water with a pH of 8.3. So really, any detectable amount of ammonia in a marine tank is quite bad. Also take into consideration that these consumer-grade test kits really aren't very accurate in many cases. An undetectable amount with an API test kit is not really 0... A lab-grade test kit would show ammonia (really how can ammonia ever be zero since it's required to process into other compounds?).
I checked again the tank for
nitrite, ammonia and nitrate, i am getting a 0ppm reading for nitrite, a 10ppm reading for nitrate and 0 ppm of ammonia.
at the beggining i said i had a color between 0 and 0.25 ppm of ammonia because i wasnt sure about the color, but after checking it today (in a well lit area, as the instructions say) i am completely sure it is a 0ppm reading.
Ok, is the cycle finished?
I also noticed that the live rock has been getting a brownish-green color, what do you guys think, what should i do next?
by the way, for the tests i am using an API saltwater master test kit....
nitrite, ammonia and nitrate, i am getting a 0ppm reading for nitrite, a 10ppm reading for nitrate and 0 ppm of ammonia.
at the beggining i said i had a color between 0 and 0.25 ppm of ammonia because i wasnt sure about the color, but after checking it today (in a well lit area, as the instructions say) i am completely sure it is a 0ppm reading.
Ok, is the cycle finished?
I also noticed that the live rock has been getting a brownish-green color, what do you guys think, what should i do next?
by the way, for the tests i am using an API saltwater master test kit....
Sounds to me like your cycle is "complete", but remember you'll need to increase your bio load slowly or you may run into additional issues. Once you start seeing algae you should be good to start adding your clean up crew.
QUOTE (emanliame @ Mar 3 2010, 10:30 PM)
Sounds to me like your cycle is "complete", but remember you'll need to increase your bio load slowly or you may run into additional issues. Once you start seeing algae you should be good to start adding your clean up crew.
ok ok thanks emanliame i am actually suprised because it has been a week and 4 days since i started the aquarium, ill be adding some snails and hermits in this coming weekend i will also add some more live rock.... from now on when are the water changes performed?, once a week? and what percentage of water removal is recommended?
Leave the damsel in. You'll end up wanting to kill it later anyway 
QUOTE (jesus_cs92 @ Mar 3 2010, 11:40 PM)
ok ok thanks emanliame i am actually suprised because it has been a week and 4 days since i started the aquarium, ill be adding some snails and hermits in this coming weekend i will also add some more live rock.... from now on when are the water changes performed?, once a week? and what percentage of water removal is recommended?
if you add more live rock, you could get another cycle.
slow. down.
let your biological filtration settle in/stabilize before adding a bunch of CUC/livestock.
QUOTE (timdanger @ Mar 4 2010, 12:02 PM)
if you add more live rock, you could get another cycle.
slow. down.
let your biological filtration settle in/stabilize before adding a bunch of CUC/livestock.
slow. down.
let your biological filtration settle in/stabilize before adding a bunch of CUC/livestock.
ok okk yeahh maybe i am a little excited, what about adding cured live rock??
What kind of test kit are you using? Seems a little weird to me for your cycle to be "complete" just a little after a week with just a damsel and one LR?
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