So I'm trying to make an ATO out of a hamster water bottle but I can't figure out a good way to remove the ball bearing. Also, do I fill the bottle with freshwater so when water evaporates, leaving salt behind, the tank's salt levels don't swing too much? Or do I just use the same water that is in the tank already?
I'm using this in a JBJ picotope 3 gallon btw.
Full Version: Pet Water bottle ATO
Don't how to remove it. Never messed with one. You do fill it with fresh water. If you used salt water your salinity would get too high and in a 3 gal it wouldn't take long.
fill with freshwater....
Have you gotten the tube that holds the ball out?
Take a small needle-nose plier and carefully straighten out the tube front edge that holds the ball in. Ball should fall out from the tip of the tube if you open it up enough.
Fill with freshwater, preferable RO or distilled, if your tap water isn't so good.
Fill with freshwater, preferable RO or distilled, if your tap water isn't so good.
The metal tip will rust on exposure to the saltwater, potentially contaminating your tank with whatever trace metals they included in the steel.
Bad idea.
Bad idea.
QUOTE (neanderthalman @ Jan 24 2010, 09:23 PM) 
The metal tip will rust on exposure to the saltwater, potentially contaminating your tank with whatever trace metals they included in the steel.
Bad idea.
Bad idea.
Well since they're designed to hold water they are typically stainless steel, so it would take quite some time for the rust to start happening and even then it would only happen very gradually. By extending the tip with a piece of tubing over it, you take the salt out of the equation and the stainless should hold up for quite a while.
I think the pliers is the best bet for getting the ball bearings out, but if you have a hack saw or rotary tool with a cutoff wheel you could easily cut the end of it like you would a metal pipe and get the same results.
with the right grade of stainless steel it should never rust. most of the metal rods in our pumps are stainless steel. dont think they used titanium but they should..
this is practical in a 3g or less. 10g+ isnt really a good idea since you'll be filling that bottle everyday..
this is practical in a 3g or less. 10g+ isnt really a good idea since you'll be filling that bottle everyday..
QUOTE (DaJMasta @ Jan 25 2010, 12:05 AM)
Well since they're designed to hold water they are typically stainless steel, so it would take quite some time for the rust to start happening and even then it would only happen very gradually.
How much contamination do you need before it becomes toxic?
QUOTE (coolwaters @ Jan 25 2010, 06:31 AM)
with the right grade of stainless steel it should never rust
Fair enough, however, there's no way on earth that a company making throw-away water bottles for hamsters is going to incur the added expense of marine grade stainless steel. The stuff's not cheap, and the company has no need to use it for the intended application. They're going to use the cheapest stuff they can get away with.
This is going to end in disaster. You were warned.
i read a diy about this before. i think its on this site too.
here it is http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=172031
here it is http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=172031
Well maybe it'll work out all right then.
I'll let you try it on your tank first.
I'll let you try it on your tank first.
yeah let us know if theres any negative reactions over time. im planning on a 3-4g nano later.
Hundreds of people have done this mod with dozens of different pet bottles. Pet bottles aren't designed to be disposable though.... that's why you can refill them and they can easily last years doing their intended purpose.
Stainless steel isn't that expensive in such small quantities, and any rusting you would get from lower grade stainless steel would occur in only tiny amounts, think about mg/L (ppm) that test kits are typically measuring our water for.... in a stainless steel part weighing only a few grams with virtually no visible rust (even as lower grade stainless) would dump at most a few mg of iron oxide into your tank. If you've got a 3 gallon pico that's a few/12 ppm - so maybe .25 or .33 ppm - the lowest resolution on many normally priced test kits. That and iron oxide is nonreactive... plus a significant amount of the rock in the earth contains iron, which when oxidized by water very often ends up in the sea anyways.
I know everyone goes nuts over water quality, but if you go crazy over the amount of rust you'll get off a stainless steel tube spread out over years - the worst case scenario - then you should also be going crazy over people with no top on their aquariums, or people with dusty rooms, or any other factors that allow any sort of particulate into your system through the air. In fact I would be more concerned over the long term impact of the grease on the pliers that you used to get the ball out that got wiped onto the tube and flushed into the system than the gradual slight rusting of the tube - not that I'd be concerned with that in any normal situation anyways.
Stainless steel isn't that expensive in such small quantities, and any rusting you would get from lower grade stainless steel would occur in only tiny amounts, think about mg/L (ppm) that test kits are typically measuring our water for.... in a stainless steel part weighing only a few grams with virtually no visible rust (even as lower grade stainless) would dump at most a few mg of iron oxide into your tank. If you've got a 3 gallon pico that's a few/12 ppm - so maybe .25 or .33 ppm - the lowest resolution on many normally priced test kits. That and iron oxide is nonreactive... plus a significant amount of the rock in the earth contains iron, which when oxidized by water very often ends up in the sea anyways.
I know everyone goes nuts over water quality, but if you go crazy over the amount of rust you'll get off a stainless steel tube spread out over years - the worst case scenario - then you should also be going crazy over people with no top on their aquariums, or people with dusty rooms, or any other factors that allow any sort of particulate into your system through the air. In fact I would be more concerned over the long term impact of the grease on the pliers that you used to get the ball out that got wiped onto the tube and flushed into the system than the gradual slight rusting of the tube - not that I'd be concerned with that in any normal situation anyways.
Only someone who's never lost a tank to an unknown contamination source would speak so loosely about metal contamination. You're playing with fire.
It's not the iron that's the issue. People does iron. It's the other components of stainless steel - which in this case are entirely unknown. Definitely chromium, but depending on exactly what alloy they used, there could be any of a dozen different other metals in there. Do you know exactly what it is? Do you know the toxicity?
When you have potentially thousands of dollars of livestock at stake, allowing uncertainty like this is irresponsible at best.
It's not the iron that's the issue. People does iron. It's the other components of stainless steel - which in this case are entirely unknown. Definitely chromium, but depending on exactly what alloy they used, there could be any of a dozen different other metals in there. Do you know exactly what it is? Do you know the toxicity?
When you have potentially thousands of dollars of livestock at stake, allowing uncertainty like this is irresponsible at best.
QUOTE (DaJMasta @ Jan 25 2010, 08:17 PM)
Hundreds of people have done this mod with dozens of different pet bottles. Pet bottles aren't designed to be disposable though.... that's why you can refill them and they can easily last years doing their intended purpose.
Stainless steel isn't that expensive in such small quantities, and any rusting you would get from lower grade stainless steel would occur in only tiny amounts, think about mg/L (ppm) that test kits are typically measuring our water for.... in a stainless steel part weighing only a few grams with virtually no visible rust (even as lower grade stainless) would dump at most a few mg of iron oxide into your tank. If you've got a 3 gallon pico that's a few/12 ppm - so maybe .25 or .33 ppm - the lowest resolution on many normally priced test kits. That and iron oxide is nonreactive... plus a significant amount of the rock in the earth contains iron, which when oxidized by water very often ends up in the sea anyways.
I know everyone goes nuts over water quality, but if you go crazy over the amount of rust you'll get off a stainless steel tube spread out over years - the worst case scenario - then you should also be going crazy over people with no top on their aquariums, or people with dusty rooms, or any other factors that allow any sort of particulate into your system through the air. In fact I would be more concerned over the long term impact of the grease on the pliers that you used to get the ball out that got wiped onto the tube and flushed into the system than the gradual slight rusting of the tube - not that I'd be concerned with that in any normal situation anyways.
Stainless steel isn't that expensive in such small quantities, and any rusting you would get from lower grade stainless steel would occur in only tiny amounts, think about mg/L (ppm) that test kits are typically measuring our water for.... in a stainless steel part weighing only a few grams with virtually no visible rust (even as lower grade stainless) would dump at most a few mg of iron oxide into your tank. If you've got a 3 gallon pico that's a few/12 ppm - so maybe .25 or .33 ppm - the lowest resolution on many normally priced test kits. That and iron oxide is nonreactive... plus a significant amount of the rock in the earth contains iron, which when oxidized by water very often ends up in the sea anyways.
I know everyone goes nuts over water quality, but if you go crazy over the amount of rust you'll get off a stainless steel tube spread out over years - the worst case scenario - then you should also be going crazy over people with no top on their aquariums, or people with dusty rooms, or any other factors that allow any sort of particulate into your system through the air. In fact I would be more concerned over the long term impact of the grease on the pliers that you used to get the ball out that got wiped onto the tube and flushed into the system than the gradual slight rusting of the tube - not that I'd be concerned with that in any normal situation anyways.
well explained.
btw i seen low grade stainless steel. the tweezers that my LFS use have more rust then metal...they said it was stainless steel. i guess u just have to monitor the tip for any sights of rust. if there is then get a better bottle.
QUOTE (neanderthalman @ Jan 26 2010, 06:39 AM)
Only someone who's never lost a tank to an unknown contamination source would speak so loosely about metal contamination. You're playing with fire.
It's not the iron that's the issue. People does iron. It's the other components of stainless steel - which in this case are entirely unknown. Definitely chromium, but depending on exactly what alloy they used, there could be any of a dozen different other metals in there. Do you know exactly what it is? Do you know the toxicity?
When you have potentially thousands of dollars of livestock at stake, allowing uncertainty like this is irresponsible at best.
It's not the iron that's the issue. People does iron. It's the other components of stainless steel - which in this case are entirely unknown. Definitely chromium, but depending on exactly what alloy they used, there could be any of a dozen different other metals in there. Do you know exactly what it is? Do you know the toxicity?
When you have potentially thousands of dollars of livestock at stake, allowing uncertainty like this is irresponsible at best.
Except fire in this case is completely inert. It really doesn't matter what other metals are in stainless steel; stainless steel is designed to be inert and completely nonreactive with other substances, so there is virtually nil chance of any of the components of it coming of in a quantity over ppb.
Secondly, the only part that would corrode would be the iron part of the steel, so you really would only be seeing iron oxide in what was coming off. Even then the tiny bit of things otherwise coming off would be coming off not as reactive ions but as relatively complete and relatively inert molecules.
Thirdly, you'd be hard pressed to find a 3 gallon JBJ picope with more than a thousand dollars in livestock, let alone thousands of dollars.
Irresponsible at best? Think about how the plastic impeller is mounted to the motor on the powerhead that's currently in your tank. You know what it's made of? Stainless steel. Same thing goes for the metal connecting the magnet (probably ferric) and the plastic impeller on any pump you have. Let me say this simply: you're over reacting and being paranoid. It's fine if you want to think that way and keep stainless steel out of your tank completely (though as I noted, that is difficult), but don't go telling everyone else to be afraid of it when in the worst case scenario, it's not really a big deal.
Yes I haven't lost a tank to metal contamination, that's because I don't drop spools of copper wire into my tanks and I use common sense when selecting components not sold as aquarium safe.
QUOTE (DaJMasta @ Jan 26 2010, 11:50 AM)
Except fire in this case is completely inert. It really doesn't matter what other metals are in stainless steel; stainless steel is designed to be inert and completely nonreactive with other substances, so there is virtually nil chance of any of the components of it coming of in a quantity over ppb.
Secondly, the only part that would corrode would be the iron part of the steel, so you really would only be seeing iron oxide in what was coming off. Even then the tiny bit of things otherwise coming off would be coming off not as reactive ions but as relatively complete and relatively inert molecules.
Secondly, the only part that would corrode would be the iron part of the steel, so you really would only be seeing iron oxide in what was coming off. Even then the tiny bit of things otherwise coming off would be coming off not as reactive ions but as relatively complete and relatively inert molecules.
You obviously know very little about steel and chemistry in general. This is so wrong as to be actually sad. Your grade school science teacher should be ashamed.
QUOTE (DaJMasta @ Jan 26 2010, 11:50 AM)
Irresponsible at best? Think about how the plastic impeller is mounted to the motor on the powerhead that's currently in your tank. You know what it's made of? Stainless steel. Same thing goes for the metal connecting the magnet (probably ferric) and the plastic impeller on any pump you have. Let me say this simply: you're over reacting and being paranoid. It's fine if you want to think that way and keep stainless steel out of your tank completely (though as I noted, that is difficult), but don't go telling everyone else to be afraid of it when in the worst case scenario, it's not really a big deal.
The most common marine grade stainless (ie: 316) will still pit and corrode at tank temperatures. To get a stainless that has a higher temperature threshold for saltwater corrosion, you need to get into some extremely exotic duplex alloys. It's very expensive, but they do it because it's a design constraint for using steel in a corrosive marine environment.
You know, exactly the type of advanced material used in hamster bottles.
Furthermore, a high quality pump for a corrosive environment doesn't have a stainless shaft at all - it has a ceramic shaft (silicon carbide?). Take a look at a pan world, or iwaki, or little giant, or other high quality pump. Go ahead, I'll wait. You'll also see that the magnets that couple the impeller to the motor are fully embedded within the nonmetallic impeller and never exposed to the saltwater. Why do you think that is?
It's clearly not impossible for this ATO to work safely - it's been shown as having been done before. It doesn't mean it isn't risky, and anyone else who reads this has a right to know that it is risky. Stating the opposite, trying to pass this off as harmless and inert when you clearly haven't got a clue, well that's just negligent.
If you are really concerned, you can dip the bottom of the tube in epoxy to seal off the metal, or use tubing cutters to make the tube shorter and add plastic tube as mentioned earlier.
just did this of course my tank only has some snails crawling around lol, as soon as i get the chance im gonna change the steel tube to some plastic tubing or something
Quite an exchange of opinions going on here.
Words are all fine and good, but I find nothing works quite as well as a picture:
The spout on the left has seen 24/7 service for nearly 1-1/2 years. The irregular notch at the tip is from me slipping with the dremel tool when I removed the ball. As can be seen there is no rust or corrosion on the outside and the inside of these stainless tubes is rough and unfinished from the manufacturer.
The spout on the right has seen about 3 months or so of 24/7 service. The dimples around lip were made by my plier when I removed the ball.
The slight reddish color on the outside of the tubes is refection from my tank lights.
Surprisingly, the stainless of this Petco bottle is of very good quality.
Words are all fine and good, but I find nothing works quite as well as a picture:
The spout on the left has seen 24/7 service for nearly 1-1/2 years. The irregular notch at the tip is from me slipping with the dremel tool when I removed the ball. As can be seen there is no rust or corrosion on the outside and the inside of these stainless tubes is rough and unfinished from the manufacturer.
The spout on the right has seen about 3 months or so of 24/7 service. The dimples around lip were made by my plier when I removed the ball.
The slight reddish color on the outside of the tubes is refection from my tank lights.
Surprisingly, the stainless of this Petco bottle is of very good quality.
QUOTE (Nano sapiens @ Jan 28 2010, 12:16 AM)
Surprisingly, the stainless of this Petco bottle is of very good quality.
Can you provide a picture of the bottle itself, to help others find the same one you used?
Who cares about the metal, I ripped it out completely and got a slightly larger tube to fit over the platic end. Works perfectly and I don't have to worry about cheap metal 
QUOTE (neanderthalman @ Jan 28 2010, 06:56 AM)
Can you provide a picture of the bottle itself, to help others find the same one you used?
Ah, you're the guy who did the diffusion experiment. Good work, by the way.
QUOTE (neanderthalman @ Jan 28 2010, 06:04 PM)
Ah, you're the guy who did the diffusion experiment. Good work, by the way.
Yup, that was me..
Thanks. The experiment was really the only way to definitively show that the salt and fresh water don't mix when using this simple ATO system.
Yeah, I saw that one. Pretty slick!
with the aquaglobes, same principal but diff design. I see how the pet bottle works. u put it at right under the level where you want it and when water line drops below it fills.
so with aquaglobe you put in in tank when its filled to reg height and as level drops pressure in aquaglobe releases water to maintain level?
so with aquaglobe you put in in tank when its filled to reg height and as level drops pressure in aquaglobe releases water to maintain level?
QUOTE (RedMan25xl @ Mar 7 2010, 09:26 AM)
with the aquaglobes, same principal but diff design. I see how the pet bottle works. u put it at right under the level where you want it and when water line drops below it fills.
so with aquaglobe you put in in tank when its filled to reg height and as level drops pressure in aquaglobe releases water to maintain level?
so with aquaglobe you put in in tank when its filled to reg height and as level drops pressure in aquaglobe releases water to maintain level?
No, it's the same as the pet bottle, that's why you needa make a mount of some sort.
I bought this same bottle. I put a clear tubing over it so the stainless steel was not in the water. About 2 months of use all rusty!!!!!!!
QUOTE (fmfa0801 @ Mar 7 2010, 03:43 PM)
I bought this same bottle. I put a clear tubing over it so the stainless steel was not in the water. About 2 months of use all rusty!!!!!!!
I've had no issues for 1-3/4 months with these bottles.
Could only mean that they have changed the type of stainless steel used. Could be a different manufacturer is producing a very similar bottle. Can you post a pick of the rusty tips?
To fix your current issue you could remove the rust and coat the metal completely with an epoxy product or remove the metal part completely and silicone in a plastic tube.
About how long does the bottle last on average before having to refill?
QUOTE (na.lamar @ Mar 10 2010, 11:09 PM)
About how long does the bottle last on average before having to refill?
wouldnt this depend on how muhc evaporation you have and how large of a bottle you purchased?
Its going to be different for everyone.
^ this, it's not magic. You should already know how much top off you're doing.
how much you're doing daily/how big the bottle is = How many Days it'll last
how much you're doing daily/how big the bottle is = How many Days it'll last
Help! Bought myself a pet bottle yesterday thinking this would be the easiest thing I've done to my tank yet... No such luck! I filled the bottle, set it in place, and nothing happened!!! The end of the tube sat an inch above my water line and no water came out. Am I missing something here? If I jiggle the bottle a bit, water drips out for a bit, but it stops after just a few seconds. Any suggestions? And YES... I took the ball bearings out, lol!
There were two or three in there. Are you sure you got them all? Water should freely run from an open tube at the bottom of a water bottle...
Yup, there were two of them. Water flows freely through the tube... except for when I turn the bottle directly upside down! 
WTF? It's like the vacuum effect is working a little too good.
WTF? It's like the vacuum effect is working a little too good.
Remove the metal tube and just some clear hose over the plastic this should work.
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