I've noticed that some wild collectors want to collect animals in more than just the tide pools, but aren't ready to go through the time and expense of becoming a SCUBA diver. A few intrepid souls might be willing to hold their breath, and start freediving (snorkeling) for critters. I've done some freediving, and instead of continuing to hijack threads when the topic comes up, I wondered if there were enough interest in the topic to have its own thread. Chime in if you are interested.

Here's a comment from another thread that I started to steal, just to get things rolling...


I know what you mean. I did a lot of freediving for abalone when I lived in norther California, and I found that the best way to solve this problem was to use what spear fishermen call a "float line" with a small football shaped float on one end, and a 2 or 3 lb weight (abalone iron) on the other. The float-line is a 30 foot (or so) length of 5/16" (OD) hollow plastic tubing, plugged at both ends, with neon paint or cord inside. The tubing floats a little, and doesn't bunch up or tangle the way rope does, so it is safe to swim with, just hold the heavy end and let the rest trail behind you. If you're on the bottom and you find something you want to be able to find again on your next dive, just drop the weight/tool. You can follow the float line down from the surface on your next dive, so even in low vis you can find the exact spot you just left. If anyone wants specifics about where to get, or how to make, a float line, send me a Private Message, or read THIS THREAD

I used to free dive lobster when i was younger. You need to be in good shape to be able to free dive in my opinion.

Why thanks!
I'm 53 and have been free diving since I was uh.......younger.
See the thread in my sig about the jetties nano. Yes, admittedly when I'm diving I don't get so tired, but when I get home afterwards I'm always ready to take a nap!

double post FTW

Hearing it twice helps! At least I won't apply it to my arse by mistake.

I've been freediving since just after I was old enough to walk, and go diving and spearing any chance that I get. That said, if you mean that people should collect animals from tidepools or in the ocean in california it's incredibly illegal, and if you get caught don't be surprised at the new mortgage you'll need to take out after selling your car doesn't even begin to cover all of the fines you'll get. Research local laws very carefully before taking anything out of the ocean...

Also, anyone new to freediving should read up on shallow water blackout. I'd really advise against collecting anything (even if it's legal) if you're a new freediver. Exerting yourself while prying something off of a rock is sometimes easy to overlook when you're underwater, and thousands of divers from beginners to advanced have died on their way back to the surface.

Absolutely right, collecting even a dead shell in CA. is considered illegal on most beachs that you can do a beach dive, and the same goes for any of the Channel Islands and for good reason. People over poache lobsters and abalone as well as Garibaldis. My way around it was kayaking around the bays and docks where I would find outragenous sponges, invertabrates, alot of nudibranches, but they require a cold water system. I worked at a local puplic aquarium and collecting was still strikely inforced. Just know the laws because the coast guard is watching, there is plenty of cool things to collect both diving and snorking.

That is commonly believed, but I've poured over the regulations, and concluded that with a fishing license, many things (most things) are perfectly legal to take, even from tidepools (like my octopus). It is true that you can easily get into trouble if you don't know what is legal and what is not, but it is NOT true that everything is illegal to take - not even close to true.

This thread is about how to collect while freediving, and while the legal question is important, and related, I don't want this thread to get side tracked there. So, I created a thread dedicated specifically to where to find the laws about collecting marine animals in California. Please, lets take the question of California fish and game laws there.

I think collecting out of the ocean is a bad idea. It's hard enough getting stuff to grow in the ocean anymore as it is.

If you can't afford to buy them just save up like the rest of us. It's all good. No shame in that.

My opinion.

Not to further derail the thread, but collecting our own items is the only way to get things for a coldwater aquarium if you are not a school or a public aquarium.

+1

I agree that shallow water blackout is a big danger, and anyone freediving MUST understand how it works and how to avoid it, because it can easily kill you. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn how to freedive, it means that you should learn how to do it safely.

I think it's reasonable to compare freediving to downhill skiing (or snowboarding). If you hit a tree skiing, you could easily die, so learn how to be safe and responsible. Also, collecting a gorgonian in twelve feet of water is like skiing on the bunny slope. Most of the freedivers who die from shallow water blackout were pushing the envelope and either carelessly, or recklessly over exerting themselves. Don't be careless, and don't be reckless. Collecting things from tidepools is not life threatening, but freediving can be, so it's not for everyone.

I didn't know that.

Like I said it's just my opinion. Thanks for sharing that with me.

The only way to get most coldwater items is by collecting them, there are a few ways to get them when they are sold as tropical but thats not very common.

Edit: Oh yeah sorry if I sound defensive. I am glad you understand. My family does a lot more conservation compared to my collecting haha

Ya! Conservation!

C-Rad,

I think the first thing someone needs to do is condition themselves. They will learn a lot about their body and the condition they are in. Then if your ready keep the free dive to shallow depths, ie no more than 10 feet.

Last time i was in the ocean I couldn't stay down more than a few seconds. I remember when I could stay down for a minute or a little more. Now I wouldn't think of being down past what i could stand in.

C-rad, thank you far the response thread. I'll look into it. I agree with the point that you shouldn't free dive if you can't stay underwater for more than a few seconds. That would be poor judgement, and conditioning would definitely be a good idea. I also think it's reasonable to suggest free diving as a means to collect cw organisms because scuba is really expensive and can be just as dangerous if you have no idea what you're doing.

Also, for anyone trying this remember: wetsuits are very buoyant - you will need weights if you intend to free dive while wearing a wetsuit. Also, wear a wetsuit, you don't want to freeze to death.

free diving isn't that difficult. if you are healthy enough to swim 4 laps in a pool without stopping you are good to go. wear flippers....life preserver and all purpose get around gear. dive deeper as you feel comfortable, know the tides and currents; and a spot down the way you can use to get to land should you forget to remember the tides and currents.

What do you mean by "life preserver"? Are you saying that flippers are life preservers? They certainly are required. Good point about the currents. They aren't much of an issue in most of the places I've dived, but I know that some places (Puget sound?) have crazy currents. My best advice about how to learn is to find someone with experience who is willing to talk to you, and ideally, go diving with you a couple of times. Take it easy, and NEVER push your limits.

ehhh, I think he's saying you should be safe and freedive with a life preserver.

Im not sure he realizes why that sounds ridiculous.

A buoyancy compensator is probably overkill in 12 feet of water. But if you really think you could panic and not be able to make it back up I guess you could spend the money on something worse (ie a life preserver).

flippers make it easy to float around, so they work like life preservers. I would rather have flippers than life preservers in most cases - you can move around at least. when friends and relatives come to town and go out for the first time I tell them to get use to floating with the flippers, and then eventually they feel comfortable diving down to get a closer look.

the currents here in certain spots can be really strong. I remember earlier this year diving under the 7 mile bridge on slack tide, and losing track of time. When the tides change there the water goes by you so fast it sort of ripples your cheek as you face it. we were swimming "up river" so to speak and then just followed the current back to the boat. (rather than have to swim against a current to get back to the boat).



oh no, those things float up and choke you when you look down. Life preservers are just to make you bob around in the water. I would never go snorkeling on a charter because they make you wear those things.

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...t&p=2572855

Next time take the time to actually email fish and game there genius.



Also 100% untrue, the vast, vast majority of shallow water blackouts occur in less than 15 feet of water due to exactly the kind of energy exerted in taking a gorgonian or lobster in 12 feet of water. I dub thee the king of awful advice that will get people killed or landed in jail.

statistics like that get skewed though because 99.99% of all swimming goes on in those depths. I hear the same thing about shark attacks, I think it has more to do with more people spending more time in the shallows rather than in the depths- rather than sharks seeking food in the shallows etc.... Most drownings occur in the shallows too, but that is no reason to believe shallow water is more dangerous than deeper.

I see what you are getting at, safety first, but fear more than anything keeps people away from this very rewarding sport..... I am 30 pounds overweight, smoke 2-3 packs a day, and eat only fast food (yuck... I know....but I have no time to cook this year....), If I can dive 4 times a week, others can do the same too. Statistically speaking, the most dangerous thing about snorkeling is the drive to the spot.

The top things I would worry about with safety are:
Go with a local to find easy access, (you can break your ankle slipping on rocks, or slip and crack your head if you are diving a rocky shore)
Find a spot that is at least 10 feet deep over the rocks, (the shallows can be very dangerous if waves are breaking on the rocks and you are so shallow that you get bubble blinded and end up getting tossed by the wave onto a rock.
carry a good sharp knife (the ability to cut away tangled fishing gear from yourself safely is a must)
Never put your hand in a hole. An eel might decide not to give it back and let you go to the surface, but cuts and stitches are enough.
Use your dive flag, and make sure to tow it with you. The closer the better. Many, many stupid parents give their irresponsible children access to waverunners and boats. Since technically you can't shoot them for this in most states, keeping the flag as close as possible is your best bet, as they will like to speed by maybe 20 feet away. Their drunk parents are also something to watch out for. If you can do it, be as far away from the weekend "I have no business on the water" crowd. /venting.....

I free dive/snorkel every weekend in the summer. Los Angles, Ventura County, and Laguna. I have never had a blackout but its another good reason not to go alone. I would say 75% of the time I go alone and always feel safer with someone else. I am an athlete but the is something about swimming/diving the ocean that freaks me out. At the end of sep I saw a 4ft souvelnosed guitar fish and nearly pissed my self. But my mentality is stay alert stay alive....It is easy to get into trouble in the ocean. It like being at Disney Land and not knowing if the ride is going to eat you or not. Thats why I keep going back.


Anyone out there dive at night for spiny lobster?

guitar fish are cool as can be. we have lesser electric rays that blanket the bottoms of near shore reefs in early summer, look a lot like guitar fish.

I have went night diving for spiny lobster, different species probably though in Florida. Lobster diving is fun, I used to do it more often... Do they make you use tickle sticks there? Or are you allowed to just pick them up?

IMO, the best lobster was always caught at night or the wee hours in the morning!

they do seem more active at night. i try to go to areas that are setup like one large rock here, another there, etc....less hind places and no fussing with them jetting into another hole to tickle out, etc...

My Man! I ain't as young as I used to be and am definately carrying around a bit of extra weight, although I am down to about a pack of cigs a day. I can still freedive and stay down about a 1 - 1.5 minutes. It amazed my kids when we did a bit of snorkeling at Fort De-Soto this past summer. Although I do find that the extra layer of chub I am getting makes me float a little more than I like!

A tip for all you guys out west trying to collect nems in the wild. The best tool for this that gives you the best chance not to damage the foot is a plastic spoon, particulary if the foot is wedged in a crevice or hole. Works just as well in your fish tank too. The pink long handled sundae spoons from Baskin Robbins are the best ones.

-Prof

I have noticed some additional buoyancy lately as well... Is that the fort in the Keys, or on the west coast? Name sounds familiar....I have always wanted to check out the old WWII remnants the military dumped in the ocean around the fort in the Lower Keys.

Sundae spoons? I am going to have to write that down...brilliant. Now all we need is a Baskin Robbins...maybe dairy queen has the same stuff. How do you use it? Do you spoon them out with the business end of the spoon, or do you "spatula" them off with the other end? I haven't messed with many anemones, but I have always used the slowly "spatula" them off method with a filet knife. Works well if they are on flat and easy to access rocks, but probably wouldn't work in the situation you described. Either way, I am done with worrying about cutting the nem, or rusting the knife.

congrats on getting down to a pack a day. i was there not too long ago, and then just went the wrong direction.

I smoke too pack a day : (

Doesn't really affect my free dive though

you notice it more swimming against a current. you said that you are still athletic, so if you still run it probably doesn't affect you at all, but I stopped running when I got too old + untalented to play soccer any more. got into a fight with the gulfstream and a narrow inlet before...long story short when I finally made it back to land I felt it. Still smoked a cigarette right after though.

On the west coast just south of Clearwater. My brother in law is down there right now and we visited this summer. Nice beach but it's definately a place you need to do the old sting-ray shuffle as you wade out. The day we were there it was very choppy after 3 days of storms so visability was crap. Ended up mostly teaching the kids and diving for shells. I did come face to face with a good sized sting-ray and accidentally flushed him out. I wasn't expecting that and I nearly filled my bloomers with some fart-art!!!

IRT to the spoon: I usually flip the spoon upside down so the bowl is facing upwards and then start working it under the nems foot. Done this way it gently goes under the foot and raises it upwards at the same time. After I get the tip in about 1/2" I move over a bit and repeat. You have to be very gentle and take your time to avoid injury to the foot. If the foot is in a crevice then flip the spoon over to a normal position and do the same thing. Sometimes the spoons are a little sharp on the edge and need to be knocked back a bit with some 200 grit sandpaper.

-Prof

hah! the flats are fun...never know when you are going to upset a sting ray. It is funny how prevalent they are. Most people think "I dont want to go snorkeling because of rays etc....", but they don't realize they are so close near shore sometimes. They have been near them more times than they think!

It still spooks me everytime I startle them, they are invisible when they get under the sand sometimes.

[quote]
IRT to the spoon: I usually flip the spoon upside down so the bowl is facing upwards and then start working it under the nems foot.
[quote]
now to find a flat ended long sundae spoon.... Something thin, strong, flexible...good idea..I appreciate it. Probably easier than with the filet knife. The filet knife is one of those Renegade brand knives wal-mart carries, guaranteed not to cut into anything, but I was still a bit nervous. You just work it under just like you said. After awhile these, (rock) anemones would just start to walk/detach and then I could pick them up.

I have seen those POS Renegade knives at Wally-World. They probably wouldn't cut cold grits! Good luck with the spoon, let me know if it works for you.

I have been planning for some time to get out and do some collecting here locally in the Cheseapeke Bay to try and set up a local biotope, but can never seem to find the time. This thread has made me start thinking about it again.

-Prof

too bad it didn't have you thinking about it 5 months ago though....hit the water much this holiday season? might freeze up there...

I had to tie a string to my cajones to keep from losing them here. I can't imagine the Cheseapeke. I think my brain would shrink too!
In other news, John, the cerianthus are doing well!

right?! Floridians have no business north of the state line. Give me a hundred degrees and humid before 65 degrees and windy any day of the week.

good to hear it about the anemone. cerianthus not arachnanthus? Now that I have been looking around a little bit more I have been finding a few different species of anemome, and tunicates and what not. I should get a decent field guide for that at some point. nice to have you guys here to help with ids, but since the critter is way out there..and the computer is way out here....field guides have their place. What bothers me is why don't they make field guides for ocean critters waterproof?

while i have you here - (sorry op for hijacking your thread) - ever keep a branching anemone? Lebrunia daniae? (sp)

Doooh. Yes, arachnanthus, not cerianthus. I'm thinking old data.
No, I haven't seen a Lubrunia. Wonder if they are as bad as the other branching anemone from the South Pacific, Actinodendrun, "Hell's-Fire Anemone", known to put people into a coma. I was trying to take a pic of one while in a surge, thinking it was some kind of Nepthea, got close, then suddenly my dive partner grabbed me and pulled me away. Thanks Chuck!

Wait what? That sounds like a cool nem haha.

Chessie biotope.... Hmm.... SoMd also. Let's talk about spring.

eh...sounds like I should get some gloves just to be sure. have heard of the fire nems....cool looking too though. Poisonous/stinging critters are a pain...hope these nems aren't that way. They are in rock crevices, so I am going to try Prof's method. All this would be more fun if the water wasn't so cold...eh...i might wait on that after all....There are so many different little nems out there too..

John, how cold is the water there now. It's 58.8 as of right now at the jetties. Forget about my butt getting in it.
As for the anemones, I was just thinking of it being branched, not many like that and the fire anemone is one. The staghorn is another and Ken Neidemyer at SeaLife Inc. warns about them, "Both types of tentacles can and will sting, and can seriously irritate unprotected skin, so be careful handling them. Also, like all other anemones and corals, the mucus from them will irritate sensitive skin and cause serious eye inflammation, so BE CAREFUL."

yeah...can't be too much more dangerous than handling pesticide or household cleaners etc...they come with the same warnings. - guess I better wear gloves, or talk my brother into it. will have to give that a shot.

The shallows are cold, 60s maybe. Cold enough that I am reconsidering a wet suit. When you get further out though the water is nicer.

At work most of our MSDS's include in the precautions sections "getting your brother to do it"!
You can only do that so much though. They finally figure out the "Tom Sawyer" routine!
Still, on the fire anemone, there's something about the warning of "convulsions" that gave me pause. I wouldn't even want to see my brother have those. Or rather, I just wouldn't want to see it, wouldn't really care if he had them, long as he brought my anemone back!
You know I'm kidding, right? Don't you?

yeah i kid with him like that, but truthfully my brother never touches anything until he sees me do it first. told him a chunk of wasabi was the sushi you were supposed to eat when we were younger, he ate the whole thing...short story he doesn't trust me as much anymore.

yeah but i bet that convulsions is one of those severe allergic reaction things though. would be cool to look into.....that is a cool looking anemone. Might not be able to use your hands in the water after putting them in... knock on wood, I haven't been stung yet by anything other than jellies and I have to be the clumsiest person alive. Oh and hydroids and smaller miscellaneous stuff, but nothing like a scorpion fish etc...

my entire tank now is stocked with collected livestock, the corals are all from a reef thats 10 meters in shore and i can get to without a snorkel, its lovely and at low tide i can get everything.
the idea of collecting my own stuff was one that yardboy gave me
he was sorta a mentor witout even knowing it

Oh Lord. Now I've got that on my conscience! My mom never warned me about being a bad influence on others! But seriously I'm glad you have been able to realize the true satisfaction of doing your own collecting. I'ts so "retro" as that's the way it was originally done.

John, here's a shot of one of the hells fire anemones. Looks safe enough, but if those tentacles are sticky it'd be like getting in cotton candy napalm!

haha, yhea, its amazing being there on the reef, choosing your own speciens and knowing where they go and how they look wild, and mimicing it. i took your advice and i always leave part of the colony behind, if its an acro and all comes off i break off frags and leave them in the reef to grow, so i dont totally decimate the reef. its great i cant wait to go back but i havent time till after exams.
what are the full sizes of those nems? look like leathers or colts - gorgeous
do they have any symbionts?

Dude! You've put my photo skills on the spot!
I would have mentioned the symbionts but I just couldn't get the pic looking right. So here it is anyway. A small Periclemenes sp. that is so transparent as to be practically invisible.



Some specimens I saw were as large as 2 feet diameter. And colors varied from pale cream, with tints of green to red.