Hello all,
I am switching this over to a topic purely on my tank and have felt that a new intro is more suiting. I started building my 10 gal nano reef in December, added rock and sand and had it cycle with a freshwater light on in January, and just now got LED lights and some snails (May)

Current Stocking
CUC:
Nerites
Nassarius
Ceriths
Turbos
3 Blue Legged Hermits
1 Red Hermit
1 Cleaner Shrimp RIP 8/8/2010
1 Emerald Crab

Fish:
Pearly head Jawfish RIP 7/18/2010
2 Ocellaris Clowns

Corals:
Zoas

Future Stocking
ORA Mandarin
A bright ric garden
More zoas

I'll continue to up date the FTS here and any advice is appreciated!!

FTS:
Click to view attachment

to nano-reef.com

Your fish/shrimp stocking is fine, unless you meant a twinspot goby (usually starves in captivity). If you want to save some money (and headaches) skip the hermits.

As for lighting, is there a reason you don't like standard fluorescents or metal halides?

Don't rely just on the HOB filter for water flow in the display tank. Something like a koralia 1 or nano would be a good choice.

Thanks! I thought everyone else said that hermits were great for keeping a tank clean? Is there something else I should be looking at to help the snails? The twinspot goby was the one I was thinking of. Should I just plan on a yellowhead jawfish? These seem to be entertaining little fish, and dwelling at the bottom should leave a clown more space, right?

Nothing against fluorescents, but MH seem expensive and HOT! A standard fluorescent is my backup/becoming-main plan.

The koralia 1 has 400 gph and the nano has 240, correct? Should I stick with the lower flow rate? I know the HOB won't give much current, just water changes but at the same time I don't want to underestimate anything and have a vortex blowing everything around.

Thanks again!

I know it isn't LED but this seems like a great deal. I'm in a similar limited cash flow situation as you and for under $100 for T5s should give you enough light judging by this site's T5HO thread. I am also new too all of this so please don't base your decision on this advice... just my two cents worth, see what others have to say.

Thanks Meech! That looks like a very nice set up. I'm hoping that after Christmas Break, around the 5th of January, I'll start ordering my salt, sand, LR, and lights. Then I should have a few weeks to recover funds for a CUC. Anyone know of specifics for a CUC? I heard there is one that comes up from under the sand and looks like the sand is boiling. Also, what role do skunk shrimp play in general cleanup? I know that they help clean the fish, but do they do more? What about sexy shrimp?

I was also wanting to start reading on exacty what and how to feed perculas and a yellowhead Jawfish.

I've decided to go with the jawfish and want to make a little PVC lair as seen in a previous thread. Any specifics or need-to-knows on that?

Thanks everyone, I'd be too worried to do this without this forum!!

Cam

I just setup a 10 gallon with 6 blues and 6 whites, and the things are so BRIGHT. Only cost me about $160 for the whole thing.

Im gonna get the novas and hope they work for me. I may upgrade though if i decide i love sps!
(im not to smart with this light thing...)

I got a 2x24w T5HO Nova Extreme on ebay for about $75 shipped when I had my 10g tank. I just added another one when I upgraded to my 20L tank. You can keep just about anything with proper bulbs (upgrade to something like ATI bulbs down the road), although you'll need to be careful with SPS. You might be able to keep some of the lower light SPS, such as monti caps, if you keep them high in the tank.

Hello. My last tank I created specifically for a yellowheaded jawfish. I didn't do the pvc thing- I made sure the rock was stable on the bottom of the tank and filled it about 4 inches with sugar fine sand. I also bought a handful of rubble that was pieces of shells and various rocks that he used to reinforce. He happen to make his home right under one of the rocks which worked perfectly. Great choice on the jawfish I hope you enjoy. For food I got him some Spectrum sinking pellets and just some brine. They are not picky eaters. I would suggest you purchase him first as they are timid and make sure you have a lid as they like to jump

you just answered all of my questions! thank you! Yeah, im gonna go with the 24" ones. 10 bucks more, psh, even though im broke. bulb suggestions for sps?

Bulb selection really depends on preference. If you want moderate growth with good looks, get one ATI Aquablue Special and one ATI Blue Plus. If you want great growth with OK looks, I'd suggest getting two Aquablue Specials. You'll be able to have an idea of what you like if you get a Nova with one 12K bulb and one actinic. Actinic really don't contribute much in the way of PAR, which is what fuels photosynthesis. If you like the 1:1 look, the ATI Blue + (actinic) actually does contribute PAR and the Aquablue Special has more PAR than the stock 12K bulb. I know there are other bulbs that folks use (Fiji Purple, etc) but it's really about personal preference. If you want an idea of what the colors might look like, you can compare the two tanks in my sig. The 20L has two ATI aquablue specials and two ATI blue +. The 29g has 2 ATI blue +, 1 ATI Aquablue Special and 1 KJ Fiji Purple.

Really, any selection of a 10K or 12K bulb and an actinic OTHER than the stock bulbs will definitely help when it comes to low-light SPS.

Wow!! You guys have been busy today! I also think I'm leaning towards the Novas right now. I think I want a tank mostly full of softies, with maybe a frogspawn. I know anenomies are difficult to keep, is there another coral that will work for hosting perculas that is easier to keep? I don't want a completely full tank of corals, but a few accent instead. If it turns out I want more corals and to keep my open look, I'll have to move and get a bigger tank .

Anyone have any comments on the CUC and shrimp?


Iron Maiden: Thanks for the estimate for some LEDs... for now I think I'll try the novas and keep it under a hundred, but if in the future I decide to upgrade, I'll keep that in mind.

The frogspawn can actually serve as a host for clowns. Same thing with torch corals.




Go snails only for the CUC, because crabs are the devil! Oh, and talk to John from ReefCleaners.org. He will HOOK you up!

Alright folks,
I'm getting impatient and know that I should wait, but I can at least look around, right? I went to the closest thing I have to a LFS, a Petco in town. For lights, they really had nothing that could work, and the sand was pretty limited choices. Anything saltwater, like LR, fish, or coral, was non-existent. So, while I suspected this would be a mainly mail-order thing, turns out it will be 95% mail order.

Militant Jurist: ReefCleaners will definitely be the place to supply my snails. I think I will take the warnings of everyone and try to avoid hermits. I also was curious if a hermit would upset a Jawfish if they both wander around on the sand bed.

Does anyone know of a specific type of sand bed that would be best for a jawfish? Like I said, Petco had a really large size sandbag, or sugar-size sand. That was it for saltwater though.

What is the best set-up regime? I know it is add saltwater, add LR and LS. Wait for cycle to complete. Then is it CUC, fish, corals, shrimp? I have seen all variations of these last four parts and really can't pin down the best. I hear a cleaner shrimp should be last since they are the least hardy on water quality. One forum said to do fish before the CUC, but then what would keep the tank clean? Another said to do corals before anything, but then do you need to spot feed the corals until fish are in?

Right now, I'm toying with the idea of a jawfish added first (in the general "fish" portion of the set-up), waiting a couple weeks, then adding a pair of false perculas. I know this would be a possibly-borderline-overstock, but my thought is the jawfish mainly stays in his den or near it. Would this be completely ridiculously excessive? Or is it possible? If it helps, I'd rather have two perculas with no shrimp than one percula and one shrimp.

Thanks again to everyone. The week before I come back I'll start ordering everything so I can hit the ground running as soon as the tank cycles!!

Hermits (at least the small varieties) are safe with fish.

After the cycle, the CUC should be added first. Then, it doesn't really matter what you add, except additions should be spaced out to avoid any mini-cycle. Corals can be added in groups, at times depending on their hardiness. Most soft corals do not need to be spot fed, which can often cause nutrient problems.

3 fish is a stress, but you should be fine.

Cleaner shrimp really aren't necessary because they have to be fed (nano fish can't provide enough natural food).

Thanks everyone. I just sent in a "custom price-limited CUC quote" to Reefcleaners.org and found a nice guy on the marketplace here who sold me a Koralia1 for $25. After the new year I'll start my tank cycle and then be on my merry way!

Happy Holidays

I found a few things on Ebay that seem to be good lighting options to me, can you guys take a look?

Lighting possibilities:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT
This seems to be the hardware for lighting. I can build a reflector and housing pretty easy (Full access to a machine shop at school and probably some scrap for free as well) Is this everything I need? Electricity and I are notorious for disagreeing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT
I would swap these out with PCs such as http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Or I would do one 10K and one actinic.

Anyways, I just thought I'd ask about these two. If people think they would work let me know and I'll jump on one of them. Thanks again everyone!

I would get the 24" 2x24 watt Nova Extreme. That PC fixture plus bulbs will be about $50. The nova extreme you can find for around $60 plus shipping. Lot better light, lot of bulb options, lot of coral options.

Shaner: I do like the way your nova lights up your tank.

Does anyone else have $.02 to put in? If I go with a standard Nova light I'll probably wait until after X-mas to order.

Thanks

The nova is an okay choice (2 bulbs limits combinations), but the two fixtures you listed are unsuitable for reef tanks. T8s and T12s are not common, while screw-in PC bulbs are best only for tanks smaller than 5-6 gallons. If you want more information about T5s, check the lighting forum and the T5HO information thread.

Alright, I've got a heater and K1 powerhead coming from a fellow NR for 30 bucks total. The hydor heater will fit in my HOB so that should work perfectly. Lights will be after Christmas, as will the sand and rock.

I've decided to put a piece of pvc, either a straight tube or a little loop with an outlet, for the jawfish. However, I've seen some people say that the jaws may want a different location, so could I put two in? This would only be to try and give the little guy options. If it doesn't matter I'll do one, or if it will be a bacteria sink I'll only do one. I was also going to put some rubble into the tube to give him something to excavate for the first day or so. Any comments?

John from ReefCleaners said I should get 3 nar, 3 nerites, and 10 dwarf ceriths. I'm worried that the ceriths will flip and not be able to right themselves. Can I cut down on them for more of the others or should I just follow blindly?

Cirths will be able to right themselves just fine, they're an elongated coneshell species. The ones you're thinking of having problems righting themselves are Astreas/Trochus/Turbo snails.


The ohter thing... the other big thing... LED lighting is NOT that expensive, you're thinking in the wrong direction here


If you want to do LEDs.... you can order the power supplies on Ebay for $20 total ($10 ea)

Buckpucks will run you around $20 ea with wiring harness and potentiometers. It's definitely worth it to have the dimming function. and dual controls.

you're up to $60 total so far.

The heat sink will run you around $30 (90 in total, so far) OR! if you can find a bunch of the 4" long old-style GPU heatsinks (they are dirt cheap or free at used computer stores) you can always string them together with some flat stock and screws.

Either way let's go with an even $100 total, just to make life easy.


now, LEDs... www.nanotuners.com has an excellent special on these, $6.29 each.

That works out to around $90 after shipping for all 12 LEDs.

Last, but not least, little things like switches, breadboard, wiring etc, let's call it another $20.

that's $210 for a fixture you will have for 10-13 years without significant loss of power from the LED elements.

Compare that to a $80 fluorescent fixture you'll be replacing bulbs on yearly for about $40-50 each time.

how often do you have to replace t5 bulbs?

every 10-14 months depending on bulb quality and your lighting cycle.

Reason why is that over time the phosphors undergo spectrum shift, this happens extremely gradually so you don't notice, but your corals will. This also leads to a lot of problems with algae, as the phosphors in the bulb break down, they shift towards the red end of the spectrum (lower energy state). Algae much prefers this spectrum to the usual one we like to keep in our aquariums.


LEDs on the other hand, work through the principal of electron drop. LEDs produce light by passing a current between two semiconductors, as electrons jump from one energy state to a lower one (the gap across the semiconductor) photons are released, this is what we see as light. The spectrum of the light depends on what the semiconductors are doped with and what kind of casing they're in.

This is also why they don't suffer from spectrum shift to the same degree as metal halides and fluorescents, the actual 'working' part of the lighting element isn't extremely hot metal vapor or phosphors: compounds which are not extremely stable by nature.

Walking_Target, Thanks for the correction on the snails. I'll just go with the stock package recommended.

As for the LEDs, I know that they are cheaper in the long run, but I only have x amount of dollars coming in at a rate of y dollars per month. By the way, y<<x. Now I could wait until I can afford LEDs, but that would be March at the earliest, then to recoup I could wait until May to start buying livestock. I'm hoping to get a cheaper flourescent light for the next year or so, and over the summer be able to upgrade when I have a real job. Until then, I am a poor student with too many hobbies to cut out $200 chunks.

Don't get me wrong, I will upgrade to LEDs at some point, but to get a cycle going and the tanks started, I'll keep it on the less-expensive-at-the-moment. The reason it has taken me two months to get as far as I am (a free tank on Craigslist, a HOB filter/fuge to be, and a powerhead and heater from a fellow NR) is that I just spent $250 on avalanche gear because I do Search and Rescue. This is also why I have to wait until the new year for any light at all.

Thanks though, and if I could, I would jump into LEDs right now.

What size substrate would everyone recommend? I know the Jawfish needs some rubble, and someone on NR has offered to help me with that, but should the rest also be larger pieces, or is the small, fine grain stuff better? The Petco has some options, as well as live rock (it should be cured if it is in their display tanks, right?) that would really save me on shipping.

Thanks

My personal preference is oolitic sand, the smallest grain available. It has the greatest surface area per unit volume, for bacterial colonization to help with filtration. Plus if you have a jawfish he'll help keep it sifted and looking good. Just throw some rubble around and he'll line his tunnels with it to make it more stable. Might want to consider this also.
Sorry if it's a repeat, haven't read your whole thread yet.

Welcome to Nano-Reef!!
Go with less to no crabs-stay away from bumble bees.
T5HO is a cost effective compromise, LEDs are outta MY budget
Yeah, you want your fuge to be 3-5x turnover rate
I've ordered from bluezooaquatics.com in California shipped to my house in Florida. Everything did well but i'm sure the shipping cost definitely puts the "out the door" at or above retail. But it was all quality/healthy stuff.
Jawfish NEED A SUPER TIGHT LID!!!
PVC jawhead house is a great idea, it may take him a couple few months to find it but youll love it when he does, by the way dont compromise at all to the TIger Jawhead, the Tiger is super aggressive-now the Bluespot is my fav,(never had a Pearly Jaw)
Clownfish you can drop pellets, flake or mysis in the tank. The Jawfish IME you have to target feed.
Skunks cleaner shrimp aren't CUC, Sexies are purely aesthetic and may get lost in 10 gallon but they would have better odds than the 20L I put 3 into....you will have to feed them pellets-they are not cleaners.
Wait 8 months before an Anemone.
I have mixed fine sand with larger sand for the Jawhead, gotta give him some excercise...also: you are going to want a DEEP sand bed for that joker! I had 4" in my 20L and now 3" in my 55gal. Besides you'll need that deep anyhow to be able to bury the PVC jawhead house.

Thanks to both yardboy and twichstile, you guys were very helpful. I looked around at various designs for jawfish houses, and some people used just a piece of PVC with and end cap (straight) vs the loop as in the post on NR. Do people know of any major differences?

I'll go with pretty light sand and a spattering of rubble. As for lids for jawfish, I was planning on doing a glass lid with an eggcrate cover for the back where the HOB enters. Would this work? If not, would a finer screen work better? I think I'll grab some LR while I'm home and bring it back to Montana. It's cheap enough, I can't see why not.

I unfortunately was shocked at how small of a hole they can jump through.

Alright guys, let's play the "What if" game. What if I bought some cured live rock from an established system, then put it in a bucket for two days? What if both those days were in a car that got cold at night? It doesn't seem like it can do too much damage, but will it cause everything to do a full long cycle again? It can't be any worse than buying uncured rock, right?

It wouldn't be any worse that uncured liverock, but then that's the worst anyway.
If you are trying to get another piece of rock into your already established tank, I'd suggest at least curing it in a bucket at home with the water you take from your tank during water changes. Does several changes with the temp regulated and a powerhead moving it around and see what happens. If after a week or two it looks okay then move it into your established tank. I know that sounds very cautious, but depending on what livestock you already have in the tank, putting uncured rock in there could kill it. I tend to assume the worst and try and avoid that.

Yardboy, I am just now setting up a tank so I don't have an established tank. However, I can get some LR right now while on my christmas vacation from an established tank. I'm wondering what would happen if it is in a bucket in the car for the ride home. Like you said, no matter what it won't be worse than uncured, but just curious as to what will be the situation. This way would save me some cash on shipping too.

Oh. In that case, go for it. If the water the rock is in doesn't freeze I doubt you'll even lose any hitchhikers.

Okay everyone, here is my latest question.

I have a HOB filter that I was planning on making into a fuge. I also want to put my heater back in the fuge. This is a penguin filter with two spouts, one on either side of the intake tube. I was hoping to have a heater on one side and a big ball of chaeto on the other, however, the heater has to lay across one side and partly into the intake tube area. So, would it be ok to put a piece of Plexiglass on the one side, channeling water to come up through the chaeto? I'm worried that the water will follow the least resistance to an extreme and flow only through the heater side and not at all through the other.

Any ideas? Should I just do it? Should I avoid all the plexi and still throw the chaeto in? Thanks!

Yes. Try anything and see if it works. If not, try something else and see how it works. If the chaeto isn't in a totally dead zone it wil extract nutrients out of the water and do it's desired work.
While water does travel the path of least resistance, there might be several paths it will flow in. Every hole I've ever poked in a tank would allow water to come out!

Alright, salinity is at 1.025, LR is in, sand has to be resent but is on the way. Let the cycle begin! Pics coming later. Thanks everyone!

I bought some dry rock from a member on nano-reef, and another member sold me some live sand. Now I know most people like to seed the dry rock with premium live rock, but can live sand work as well? It says good until 9/2010. Is there any other way to seed or start the good bacteria in a tank than buy some premium live rock? Since I don't have a LFS, ordering premium live rock makes me nervous on it's "liveliness". Any help is great, and here is my FTS just before sand!

Click to view attachment

Since the live sand has an expiration date, I'm guessing that it didn't come from someone elses tank but was bagged live sand, which in my opinion isn't worth much anyway. If you order rock from some reputable online vendor you can get really nice stuff. I ordered mine from Foster and Smith years ago and it was better and cheaper than anything I see in my lfs.
You might want to check out these guys if you haven't already. They're relatively close to you and they have had great success using homemade rock. I bought some stuff from them years ago, but not anything recently.

Thanks for the tip on GARF.org. I've never heard of them.

Has anyone else used this HOB filter? Is it supposed to be friggin loud? I since I don't have anything in there yet, I moved the heater to the tank and have just the koralia running. Is there anything i should inspect on it? I sounds like the impeller is catching the sides of the intake tube but I can't seem to wiggle the tube and get it to stop. Is it cavitation? Any help would be appreciated, otherwise it is going to have to go.

Would just a koralia 1 be enough for a 10 gallon? I'm still thinking perc and jawfish for the fish, and zoas, rics, and maybe one hammer coral.

Thanks for any help!

Bump. What would work for flow? I just want to keep Rics and zoas, with a slight chance of hammer, but decreasing every day.

I'm sure a Korallia one would work well for flow, though sadly they can be obtrusive in a 10 gallon tank.
Why are your desires for a hammer, "decreasing every day"?

The Koralia isn't nearly as obtrusive as the constant whacking sound of the HOB. However now the heater has to be in the tank...but still I prefer that.

The hammer just grows pretty big. I really want the fish to be the main thing in the tank with some bright colored rics and zoas to be the coral for the tank. When I see people do the same thing plus a hammer or frogspawn in a ten gallon it always seems to get so big. Do they not frag or is it really hard to frag these corals? I would have no problem doing that but I just don't want a coral to get out of hand when my tank is so limiting already.

I doubt there is any coral easier to frag than a hammer. Particularly a branching one. The split and go their seperate ways on the branch and just snapping the polyps off is all it takes.

Is there somewhere on here I can see other people's in tank fuge? The almighty search button and google aren't bringing up a whole lot other than the Drs Foster&Smith. I've heard a soap dish works but can't find pictures. How bad is it to have the chaeto in the same tank and on the same lighting schedule? I would like some extra life for the fish (NO MANDARIN) so let's keep the shouting down if we can

The HOB was going to hold it but I would rather have a quieter tank since it has been running so loud.

Still no tips on in tank fuges. However, I did get some gorgeous live rock today. Turns out there is a small fish store in town, actually run out of a guy's house. He may be getting some awesome lighting for cheap too. Not to mention he has some jawfish and plenty of clownfish for sale.

Still no great source for zoa and rics.

Nothing exciting but here is the update: In the last 8 days, I have added the piece of premium rock and that is it. I don't have a test kit yet, I figured I could look for a diatom bloom and save the money for now. The K1 powerhead is blowing fairly well and the tank is kept between 75 and 78 degrees. It should blow up with blooms and I can at least get a few snails in there in the next couple weeks, right? I'm getting anxious, which I know is everyone's problem during this cycling bit.

Thanks for keeping an eye on this!

Keep patient.
You won't really be able to tell when the cycle is over without a kit. Or just bring a water sample to the lfs and ask them to run nitrate for you. If you wait long enough you will be able to only do it once to verify that your cycle is complete.



Think about what you want your tank to be while waiting. Maybe this will help.]
http://glassbox-design.com/wp-content/uplo...-reef-scene.jpg

So I just bought a test kit today. I found my Ph is about 8.3 (between the 8.2 and 8.4)
Ammonia to be between 0 and .25 so I guess .125
Nitrite to be 0...dead on 0
Nitrate is I guess 5 or 10..they look so close I can't really decide which one.

What do you all think? Since I only started on January 20 with dead rock, and then added small piece of primo rock on Feb 3rd. Do you guys think my tank hasn't cycled yet or what? No huge diatom bloom either. Since the numbers seem somewhat low I just want to know if I should order a CUC or what. Thanks for helping and following!!

CUC when there's something to clean up!