Ok, thanks Yardboy! I'll keep waiting for the bloom. Is there anyway to boost it? I'm just worried that since the majority of rock was dead and the sand was from a bag, that it won't really have a large cycle...

Thanks!

the diatoms will come, just keep that light on a regular cycle and it will happen for you...unfortunately..

not sure on your flow situation, but I was going to add this 2 pages back:

+1 to adding more flow, but if you want to save some money in the short term harbor freight has pumps stronger than the koralia I think for $4. You can dial them up and down too if you go for the stronger $6 version. $5 I think and you get a lifetime service plan....just trying to save some cash in your plan, koralia is a good powerhead.

Thanks John! I just really want to get that CUC you made for me. However, I thought I was supposed to keep lights off during the cycle. If I'm supposed to be having it on and off....I need to get on that. Also thanks for the heads up on the Harbor Freight pumps!

Woooohoooo!!!! Hitchhikers ahoy! I think they are feather dusters. There are a couple tubes that look polyp/feather duster like and five other tubes that aren't opened. I'm not exactly sure what they are since they look like a cross between polyps and feather dusters. No pictures for a while. However, I did get at least a light bulb that comes on and off. No actinic, but at least 20 watts are on it.

I looked at the things that came with my rock again today and they were fully open. I believe they are palys of some sort, a dull brown but corals none the less! I'll try to get pictures up in the next day or so for confirmation from everyone here but I think they are some type of zoa/paly.

If they are, should I be worried that they are in there with an uncycled tank? Since this is my first/only salt tank I can't move it anywhere else, plus this is the live rock that should be seeding the tank. Any advice would be appreciated. I don't want to lose the corals but I haven't had a diatom bloom. The chemicals are still stable where they were previously...

Thanks as always!

So here is the best pic I could get. Any tips? Thanks!

Click to view attachment

So does everyone agree that i got some palys as hitchhikers? Is there anything I can do since my tank hasn't cycled?

I also just noticed that there is a golden layer of something growing on the sand bed. Is this the start of a diatom bloom? I guess I expected an overnight explosion of crap throughout the tank.

Thanks for any help!

Just checked all my parameters.
Ph is about 8.2
Ammonia to be between 0 and .25 so I guess .125
Nitrite to be 0...dead on 0
Nitrate is also at 0

Is my cycle over then? I have gone down since my last test a week or two ago and I have crap growing on the bottom. What do you guys think? I already have the list from Reefcleaners for a CUC that I want to get going.

Thanks for any help on anything

Refer back to post 48. I re-read most of your thread and gathered that you started the tank about a month ago with dry rock and livesand. If the dry rock was originally liverock that was allowed to dry out then it was probably full of organics. With the livesand for a bacterial culture it could have had a slow start. What temperature has the tank been running at? If cold, then it would have been slow to start.
If you have any ammonia, then the cycle is only just beginning. There should be no ammonia or nitrite before introducing any livestock. The brown paly's you have on some of the rock (not the dry rock surely, maybe I missed something) are pretty tough and are likely to survive a cycle (but not drying out!).
Wait some time longer. The brown film (cyanobacteria) is an indication of an early cycle with plenty of nutrients. Be patient. The beautiful tank you see in your minds eye will come.

Your feather dusters could be colonial hydroids. The polyps appear to be some type of zoanthids, which include palys. Use the identification forum for more help. Read the soft cycle thread in the biological filtration forum for help on keeping hitchhikers alive during the cycle. In your case, it looks like the cycle is ending.

You sure do have expensive hobbies for having no money!
Shooting guns and salt water tanks will suck the wallet dry fast (yes i saw the bullets in the corner, they .22's? Not sure if anyone pointed that out yet).

@ 45cents a round for .45, and 50cents a round for 5.56mm, and bills + fishtank i feel your pain...

Okay....so Yardboy is leaning towards my tank starting a cycle and lakshwadeep thinks it is ending...? I'll keep going until there is a crazy bloom and all my readings are about zero. The temp is steady at about 80. The palys (fairly sure now) came with the pound of premo live rock I bought. I guess the cyanobacteria will have to stay until the ammonia and nitrites drop. Thanks for the tips guys.

Nemmy:
LOL good eye good eye. A larger image would show .17, .22, .40 S&W, and some 12 gauge. All very useful rounds for hunting in Montana. Add to those two hobbies homebrewing, kayaking, search and rescue, and my scooter and yeah, pretty much broke! BUT HAPPY!!! And isn't that what matters most?

From my experience, ammonia in a tank doesn't signify the end of a cycle.

What are the nitrates at? They take a long time to lower. If there is ammonia but no nitrites or nitrates, it sounds like something could be wrong with the ammonia test. Have you tested freshwater or newly mixed saltwater to see what the color of 0 ppm ammonia looks like?

nitrites and nitrates are all zero. They were high originally but now they are down to zero. I have not tested the initial water yet.

I have a quick question about the zoas. When I wake up every morning and the lights are on (timer) they are open, but when I come home from work, they are closed while the light is still on. Is this because my lights are on too long (12hr)? I have an east facing window in my bedroom and now the light shines in in the morning. Is it that my powered light is just too crappy and it takes the powered light and the sunlight? I'm upgrading my lighting as soon as my cycle is complete, until then it is just a normal 20w fish bulb.

Also, around the zoas that open, there are the little clearish tubes that have a brown tip. Are these zoas to be? I noticed them when I noticed the opening zoas but they have yet to do anything. Just curious.

Thanks!

Bump, anyone? Anything?

You already guessed it. Not enough light. Zoanthids are generally shallow water critters, and can take lots of light, certainly more than a 20W light can put out. Hurry up with your new lights!

Thanks again Yardboy, you seem to be the most helpful for me! Any ideas about the little clear tubes? Are they zoas to be? Or are they something I should worry about? I can't really find them via hitchhiker id here or elsewhere...

Thanks!

Not sure about the clear tubes, not likely zoanthids as they usually spread from a flat opaque gray "root" or stolon that creeps across the substrate. It's called the coenenchyme.
I'm glad to help. Some just fly bye and throw out info without really reading what you're saying. You're on my subscription list so I see when you post so I'm following your experience. Hope I've helped a little. Maybe some time you can do the same for someone else!
Also you may need some help to maintain your dedication to raising a reef in Montana! The most common reef there is a fossil!

Hahahaha, yeah there are some cool fossils though!

I'm from Mississippi and I remember the first time I went out West, to Wyoming and Montana with my folks on vacation. I freaked out. The geology was just like everywhere. In Miss. you have to really look for it. Nothing much but loess and delta flats. Very few rocks, just sand and clay.
Mountains just stretching for the sky out there! Very beautiful.

New life!! I found a starfish (I think) in my tank. I'm still waiting for the new lights and then to get snails. But I found this thing, can anyone confirm it's starfishyness? I also have these new white tubes. Are they a worm or just some crap in my tank?

First pic looks to be an Asterina starfish.
Second pic looks like zoanthids or palythoa's suffering under too little light.

Cool, it looks like I have two of those starfish. I hear people go back and forth on the starfish and if they are safe for reefs or not. Guess I'll have to wait and see. I pm'd a guy here to see if I could buy a T5 fixture from him but so far it's to no avail. The local fish guys have some lighting that I might start looking at in a week or so if I don't hear back from him.

Another question! Those little white tubes have a curly base that goes into the rock. Also, after I clean the glass and little particles float about, the tubes have a really stringy thing come out that seems to have the particles cling to it. The string is then sucked back into the tubes.....I haven't heard this as Zoa behavior before. Any clarification would be great. I also have HUNDREDS of little tiny white dots on the back of my tank (where I don't clean the glass, trying to get coralline there) that don't look like starfish but I don't know what else it could be. Sorry there are no pictures, but I tried and they didn't work out well.

You're likely describing vermetid "snails":
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rs/index.php

White dots are likely small feather duster worms. If you haven't already, visit the identification forum and read the "ultimate ID thread".

Thanks Lakshwadeep! The vermetid in the ID guide looks a lot different than what is in my tank, but that site you linked too made it quite clear. The behavior too agreed with both. As for the little white dots on the back of the tank, it could be some Spirorbis....but nothing online looks exactly like mine. I guess since they are supposedly a sign that your tank is doing well I'll just go with it for now

Thanks!

WOOOHOOO! My LFS had a pretty sweet little LED set up, so I bought it. I also had some chaeto and snails thrown in. I officially have good light and snails. I'll do a water change tomorrow and every week from here on in! I took pics but can't find my cable, so later some time there will be pictures.

Here is my new FTS with LEDs, chaeto, and snails! However the snails seem to have bumped up my ammonia to scary levels. Everything was at zero until when I put them in. The ammonia went up to 8ppm! I did a 15% water change today and the ammonia dropped down to .5ppm but still high. I'm hoping that the system will cycle now. It never truly did cycle before after months. On a plus note, my one zoa seems much happier! Any comments are great so let them fly!

Well, I noticed one of my snails wasn't moving today so I took a net and nudged it. It fell over and about 5 fireworms(?) less than a centimeter long were burrowed inside!! I know fireworms in general aren't good but do they devour snails too? What should I do to purge my tank of them?

Also there are some little tubes with a few fingers sticking out of the tips. These are less than a centimeter long as well and are on the glass. I can't tell what they are and I can't get a picture that is in focus! Nothing on the hitch hiker ID looked anything like them. I know pictures would help but I got nothing.

On a good note, my zoas look down right giddy under my new LEDs. Some are all a deep red while one is a deep red with a bright spot in the center. I can't tell if it is blue or white or something, but they're purdy!

I'd be surprised if a few small snails jacked your ammonia levels to 8 ppm! Also, let's do the math. If your ammonia level was 8 ppm and you did a 15% water change, the ammonia should have only dropped by 15% (hold on, got to take off my shoes and use my fingers and toes) or 6.8 ppm, not 0.5 ppm. Sounds like something went wrong with your ammonia test, which is good since an 8ppm ammonia concentration would have likely killed all your snails. But then, one of them did die, and not likely at the hand of the fireworms. They are just opportunistic, kinda like if you came home with steaks your girlfriend (or significant other) wouldn't assume you killed the cow!

I don't know, my fiancee would probably assume that I not only killed the cow, but also have another in the freezer! I was confused about the ammonia so I'm glad that it doesn't make sense to you either. I'll keep an eye on everything and do another water change tomorrow but I'm still a little nervous.

Thanks!

That's a good tank philosophy: When in doubt, do a water change.

Well I wanted to get some pics up now that I found my cord for my camera. Sorry in advance for the blurriness. The first is the zoa that came with my rock. It is a very nice red with a little bright dot in the middle, I can't tell if it is a bright blue or a white. I don't really care too much if it has a fancy name, but if it looks like something is wrong with it speak up so I can try to fix the problem. The 2nd and 3rd pic are of the weird little things on the glass and heater. The pics aren't great but they are tiny suckers. I couldn't find anything similar to them on the id threads so I figured I'd see if someone else could fill in the blanks.

Thanks!

Picture 3, Pineapple Sponges.

Great nibor! The one in the second photo looks very similar in real life so I guess it too is a pineapple sponge. I saw they are harmless so I won't worry about it unless they propagate too much.

Thanks again

Well can't help with id on pics, but noticed you are in Bozeman. I am in Billings, just wondering if Bozeman has any LFS? We have one in Billings but they rarely get any corals that are real colorful.

Would love to find another source.

Genesis,
The LFS here is Crystal Clear Aquariums. They started as tank builders and installers in some of the houses that are around, then added livestock so they can completely set up and do maintenance. Now they are finally opening a store where it will be easy for others to walk in and buy stuff. Until the store is finished, it has always been that they let you meet them at one of their houses and the livestock available was what they had. Both the guys are really nice and seem to actually care about cycles and your tank instead of just selling anything they can get you to buy. They sold me my panorama exo...something or other LED light bar which has lit my tank up beautifully and brought my hitchhiking zoas out of hiding!

I was in Bozeman about a month ago and the Petsmart or Petco told me there was no saltwater fish store, but somebody was opening one, so that must be the one.

Do they have a variety of corals, specifically more of the colorful corals?

I bought my live rock piece from them and it has three of the zoas pictured above, if you want to call that colorful. From the few tanks I saw in one of their houses, everything looked nice but nothing really popped like I want my tank to. Hopefully it will be clearer when the store is fully up and running. They are in Four Corners and should be open any week now....

So here is an update of my zoa cluster. They are kinda red with a bright purple or white center. I have another that is green on the surface but originally looked this same red. I called the LFS to try and see if a pearly jawfish is in my future (this week) but I have yet to hear back from them. Fingers crossed I'll get a fish though!!

Just changed my opinion on fish stocking. I gladly swapped the idea of two clowns for one of the new ORA mandarins! I'll get the jawfish in on Wednesday at the LFS. Then hopefully give a month or so to let ORA get the mandarins out.

What do you guys think?

Would the mini porcelain crabs (Reef Cleaners) be kosher with a mandarin? It seems like a dime would be too big for the mandarin, right? They seem like they could benefit the CUC and are similar to sexy shrimps.

those are palys not zoas next to the chaeto.
idk what type of mandarin youre talking about but if its a dragonet, then you need to train it to eat frozen food or it will die in a 10 gal.

Thanks for the clarification! How can one differentiate between zoas and palys? As for the dragonet,
http://glassbox-design.com/2010/ora-mandar...y-captive-bred/ . I never would have attempted to train a fish for my second reef fish, but if all is done already then I'm gonna go for it. Anyone else have thoughts on this? Am I crazy for believing that ORA will have trained mandarins? They seem pretty legit....

I am a newbie, but everything I have read is that a mandarin has to be in a larger tank that is established. I could be wrong on this, but check it out before you buy it...better safe than sorry.

ok that site says that they trained them to at frozen, but I'd be skeptical still...

Captive bred mandarins are very new and uncommon, and they should be fine with introduced foods. Wild-caught mandarins needed a lot of live rock to have enough live food because many fail to eat introduced foods. They are similar to other hard to keep fish, like moorish idols or cleaner wrasses, in that they are hardy except for their specialized diets.

Thanks Lakshwadeep, do you think ORA will have them well trained? I don't want to slowly kill one but if it will work then I'm super excited about.

Everyone else is right, a wild caught would die which is why I never expected to have one. They are the fish that initially got me looking into reefs, but then I found out about there diets. If these do come trained, then that is what I'm going to be getting!!

ORA will have to have them well trained if they can breed them. I think the first example of mandarin breeding was accomplished last year.