Octo
http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemD...&ddid=75837

Jelly
http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemD...&ddid=75834

just wanted to post in case if anyone is looking for some

I know this is going to sound severe, but we all know that the vast majority of these animals are doomed. Therefore I do not believe that they should be available for sale, and we as mostly experienced hobbiest should let DR. Smith and Foster know how we feel, I am probably incorrectly speaking for others, but I am going to, and I hope others do to.

i know what you mean, but there are some scientist here that like to study creatures like them and learning more about them.

Hopefully only a University or Research lab will be able to buy them... kinda sad to see such things up for sale.
especially since its real hard to keep jellies.

Marine biologist and zoologist do not buy from Dr.Smith and Foster. These animal will be so stressed from collection and transport that even if they do live through that, I am guessing maybe 1% will live a month. What we learn from that 1% is not worth the hundreds that perish. Learn from their environment. and stop taking for the enjoyment of a cool show piece. And yes I buy aquacultured, and I hope people that do buy collections are choosing animals that have some hope of survival in their systems. And please do not lecture me about " clams are not actually aquacultured they grow out in the ocean". Pick your battles.

My local LFS around here sell them, especially to noobs who buy up jellies as fast as they can. Octopus are popular too for people who have no idea how to keep them. Bad practices if you ask me, I try not to do any business with them anymore. Sales like that hurt the hobby by highlighting the "cool to look at" portion of the hobby and overlooking the "husbandry" portion. Oh well...hopefully the buyers are aware of what they are getting themselves into, maybe that is the case.

i wouldnt automatically jump and say that its a bad thing they are selling them. i believe its more of a bad thing that when it obviously says expert only if your ignorant enough to buy it and not know what your getting yourself into. how would we learn new things in this hobby if people didnt take risks? i mean just within the last 5 years its gone from nanos and picos being completely unheard of and people called others asinine and stupid for keeping them to now company's coming out with full lines of nano and pico reef equipment and an entire market is now devoted to it. in short i think there is usually some bad that comes with good and it is what it is, besides if someone wants to keep one bad enough they are going to find a way to get one, one way or another.

lmao off @ people who offer advice that will likely lead to noobs killing anemones but wants to take the "high ground" on people keeping octo's and jelly's

While on the subject of diver's den inverts, anyone catch the pseudocorynactis? Man, I wish mine would get that big...

People are going to try and keep anemones regardless of how often you tell them that they are going to die. At least some people know enough about their husbandry to try and help them keep that anemone alive. People are going to try and keep jelly fish regardless of how often you tell them that they are going to die. Very few people have neither the right type of tank or know anything about how to care for them. So yea I guess I will stay on this ground and try and help people keep anemones alive, and discourage the collection of jelly fish and exotic octo. Cheryl

Jellies, Octos, Clams all the way to Nemo are basically doomed. The FACT is...99.9% of all marine life sold, are dead in a month or less. I am not in favor of selling difficult species...... but in reality they stand just about the same chance as everything else.... damn near zero. So in a warped sort of way the argument is mute.

Mark

Octopus are really not that hard to care for, so I think you should STFU.

Also, most octopuses live very short lifespans in the wild. It doesn't seem hard for an aquarist to keep one without seriously decreasing its life expectancy.

Mr. Penut lived a full life.
<-----------

Actually, yes they do. Where do you think zoos and aquariums and labs that do research on tropical fish and inverts get them? We're not all fortunate or well funded enough to be able to collect them ourselves. It's the same CoC that supplies DF&S and the rest of the aquarium industry. And in some unique cases, we do in fact buy directly from the DD at LA.




A host anemone is effectively genetically dead once it is taken from the wild, whether someone keeps it alive for one day or 30 years. No one is sexually propagating host anemones in captivity, and I think it's safe to say that no one (not even public aquariums) are keeping host anemones alive for their entire lifespan.

On the other hand, many institutions (and one day perhaps advanced hobbyists) breed octopus and jellyfish. I'm not aware of anybody breeding O. macropus, but Mastigias jellies are rather easy to keep and breed. Neither animal is particularly difficult to keep alive for its entire lifespan. Mastigias jellies don't need specialized care and will do fine without a kreisel tank. After Casseiopeia they are one of the easiest jelly species to keep in captivity.

Matt, you have no idea how happy I am you posted in this thread.

Hi, Thank you very much for the information, this post is in no way meant to be confrontational. I am very interested in your ideas. Can you clarify for me what the CoC is and the DD. And yes I believe many people can keep octopus effectively. I my self have kept many common pacific octopus for their entire short life span from the smallest baby to adults and have some of my best memories of SW come from the interactions with them. I can say I have never kept or attempted to keep jelly fish, probably because I visited the San Pedro Aquarium, where they raise them and study their husbandry and I did not think that I could meet their needs.
My point is, that and you must know this from reading forms, that the vast majority of hobbiest are not going to put the time into caring properly for these animals or the research. And the LFS are full of mis- information when providing these animals to the public. The questions that some people ask about on the forms are scary to be honest. And I worry about the slippery slope aspect, I have seen Natilus in stores banging against the aquarium sides and it breaks my heart. Basically what I am saying is that in the perfect world the new hobbiest would do the research, and provide the best environment for their inhabitants, but we both know that is not the reality. Research is one thing and keeping trophy marine animals is another.
You sound very knowledgable and I appreciate your response. That being said I am interested in your backround with SW and any further informaton you can provide.

You can find out a lot about Matt by following the link in his sig.

Besides being the Site Admin @ reefs.org, his "day job" is as an Aquatic Biologist at The Steinhart Aquarium, California Academy of Sciences.

Hi Cheryl! Great post and good discussion. Totally agreed that it's an unfortunate reality that many people are able to purchase animals that they aren't able to care for. The other side of the slippery slope would be that we aren't able to purchase these animals at all. Whether we think one side of the slope is worse than the other is, of course, totally an opinion. I would just point out that neither of these animals are collected to a degree to be considered a significant impact on wild populations. That's what I think is most critical--is the collection sustainable? If we were talking about a threatened or endangered population of animals I would be right there with you asking for LFSs and other dealers not to sell those animals.

There are a ton of animals that we now consider pretty easy to keep that just 10 and 20 years ago were considered unkeepable--orange spot filefish, Acropora, cuttlefish, etc. The way the hobby grows and advances is people trying things that haven't been done before and keeping meticulous records of the methods they used when they do succeed, and then sharing that information. I think that in general the average hobbyist nowadays is much much more knowledgeable and prepared than the average hobbyist from 10 years ago, which is a great thing!

Oh, the CoC refers to the chain of custody, basically the "machine" that gets fish/corals/inverts from the ocean to our aquarium--collector, holding facility overseas, wholesaler, retailer, and all the shipping companies in between. DD refers to the "Diver's Den" at Live Aquaria, where the original post linked to. I think one of the things that is so great about the DD is that people are able to purchase a quarantined, conditioned fish in great condition, and they get to see the exact specimen they're purchasing. It is the model that I wish every LFS and online retailer followed.

As for me I am just a guy who gets paid to scrub algae and clean protein skimmers!



Thanks Scott. Sometimes it's also my night job...

Thank you for the reply and the information you provided. I still feel the need to choose the slippery side that limits the distribution of exotic marine animals. I am however greatful that the impact on the numbers is not crucial at this time.
I am dating myself, but I remember the days when you could go to Catalina Island and see the masses of breeding Leparod sharks from the shore. I know the hobby did not wipe them out, but I hope you see my point in that our impact in the last 20 years is so unfortunate.
And how do you feel about the restriction on collection of certain types of sharks? Actually any restriction on collection.
You are the fortunate son, I choose Nursing over Marine biology because everyone said I would never make any money. I would much rather be cleaning protein skimmers at one of nicest Aquariums in the world. Thank you again.

sorry if it sounded like I was referring to that listing, which were like you said clearly marked as expert only. I was complaining about some local practices. Sure there are many aquarists that could keep them and understand that they should do some research. But there are lots of people like my friends father, who end up with an octopus dead on the ground next to his open top tank, because he didn't know that they can crawl out, and the pet store guy didn't tell him. A few more of these type of impulse buys (snowflake eel that met the exact same fate, mandarin, seahorse etc...all the regular cool to look at but special needs items except a cleaner wrasse and a moorish idol) made him throw in the towel on SW thinking it to be too difficult. This is what is I was referring too, I know a few people who have left the hobby over things like this. Although this particular guy is stubborn enough to get it despite the expert designation anyway.

lol, that's why I put it in quotes.

I followed this thread with a few laughs and giggles but it brings up a valid question while we have the attention of some actual smart people; what hobby accessible livestock is endangered due to collecting habits? Is it worth boycotting them?

Hi cheryl this is just my two cents in this matter... I feel to what you have to say. However i do not feel that all these animals are doomed because there are some good common sensed people who come to websites like this one to learn more about these animals and hopefully in that light learn their needs and how to take care of them. Most people who are in this hobby are because they love the ocean and in some way might be able to have a peice of it in their homes... but in my opinion the problem starts in the ocean itself... Do you realize how many fish are harvested for human consumption including octopi. Have you considered how much waste goes to the ocean. One thing i have learned is how much impact we have on sea life; i have learned how much damaged unwashed hands can do to an aquarium how different levels of chemicals affect sea life yet in front of our homes we have sewers and gutters that all lead to the ocean... so in other words next time please don't just attack companies who try to make a good honest living but ask yourself how much you yourself influence the ocean. Next time you go out and order seafood or any type of protein for that matter... those are just my 0.02 cents thank you for your time... and just for the records i respect your opinion dearly... P.S. im vegan ;D

Point taken, but this discussion was on the collection and distribution of marine animals. Do not even get me started on what Japan does to oceans around the world or the hunting and killing of seals in some countries. And I applaud anyone and everyone that takes appropriate care of their little or big marine habitats. I also appreciate your 2 cents, but your subject is too broad with too many variables, if you really want to make a difference pick a couple or just one subjects to focus on and do what you can and I hope you will make a difference. Good luck

Endangered? Probably none. Certain species are vulnerable, threatened, or no one really knows enough about populations to really say for certain. Banggai cardinals, Rhinopias scorpionfish, and Wunderpus octopuses are all pretty good examples of animals that aquarists should probably think long and hard about before deciding to buy one from the wild.

http://www.ssn.org/Meetings/cop/cop14/Fact...inalfish_EN.pdf

In general reef fishes are at much greater threat from habitat loss from human encroachment.

Well it's true we don't make much money at all but the perks are nice.

There are plenty of sharks that don't belong in people's fish tanks. Nurses, zebras, and black tips to name a few. Nowadays a person can go online and know that these sharks get 10 or 14 feet long or need incredible amounts of space to do well in a matter of seconds. I'd hope that the hobby will self regulate as people point out and shun folks who keep and sell these animals. Do I think "there oughta be a law?" No, I don't, but that's just my personal opinion.

liveaquaria is probably one of the best mainstream online stores there is. there are lots of people who do research the animals they keep. should they all suffer cause some idiots dont? people who dont research the animals they keep should not be in the hobby. im glad that guy's father left SW. and yes, the people who do sell these animals to people without telling them the risks are scum. i hate how mandarins are treated like goldfish and sold to every noob on a wide scale. as long as people are researching and asking questions then one day a mandarin will be as keepable as a goldfish. this hobby advances fast. although i agree that currently most mandarins should only be kept in mature tanks with 100 lbs of live rock and a stable pop of pods.

i didnt this thread would turn out like this lol

I find it funny how some talk about cruelty to animals when there are little kids out there starving. Have you ever thought that because we lost say even a 1000 octipuses, that the fishermen catching them were able to make a living in the third world countries and feed their kids. I would rather kill the 1000 fish than have their kids without food. Just my opinion.

there are way too many people in the world

Next thing you know this thread will be talking about Tiger Woods.

Tiger Woods, o boy! He is a mess!


lol! U made me talk about TW!

I do agree there are too many people in the world but that does not mean it is ok to put poor people out of business to protect wildlife.

As a Microbiologist, I agree.

My 2 cents~
Octopuses are frequently found in crab and lobster traps in FL. These animals are considered a nuisance and are usually destroyed/used as bait. There are a few guys ( that I know of) who will get these animals from the trappers and sell them to hobbiests. These are animals would be destroyed if not for the hobby industry. I completely agree there are many collected using unscrupulous means or mishandled. I would not purchase one unless I knew where and how it was collected. My O. briareus is from FL, it was found in a trap, it was missing one arm severed at the webbing. (many are damaged unfortunately) I am happy to report it's arm has grown appx. 3 inches since I have received him. Aside from the rare and dangerously venemous species, I see nothing wrong or inhumane with aquarists keeping them. That is of course when they are educated on their spcific needs. As with all hobbies, there will always be losses due to ignorance.
Their lives are short but I treasure every day I can spend interacting with mine.
Tonmo.com is an excellent source for anyone seeking information on keeping cephalopods.

Ollie my O briareus

i agree... us humans are destroying the world. wildlife is more important imo


nice octo btw!!

so it's okay for corporations to force small rural people to overfish their local waters to provide us with rare fish to the point that their reefs die and the corporations move on and leave them with nothing and eventual starvation because they did not employ manageable fishing practices?

also, just throwing this out there, you know octopi are commonly eaten in large portions... i mean, id rather just throw my serving in a tank and keep it alive for a couple months instead of boiling it and enjoying a not so great 30 seconds of flavor. imo..

I'd disagree good octopus is damn delicious.