My Local Reefer friend posted this on our website and i just wanted to let everyone know the truth about the "Rare" new Aussie Echinatas.




There are some really outrageous prices for these guys...but really, they're abundant and vendors shouldn't take advantage of the hobbyist like that.

welcome to the real world. if people are willing to pay for it, theres always an market.

i think the prices of australian corals has more to do with the education level of the divers collecting them than anything. australia isn't exactly a third world country where a bunch of locals will risk their neck free diving for .25/specimen just to feed themselves for another day.

ehh i guess.... except that their investment is going to drop in price drastically now that that echinata is being imported so much.

acans are still overpriced for what they are, as are duncans, and pretty much anything else coming out of australia.

but hey, it's just like electronics: get as much of you can out of it while it's new and then let the market settle in where it will. there are too many people out there willing to pay $150/inch just to have a "LE" or "rare" coral, and whoever has that coral to sell at such a high profit margin will make good money from world-wide sales for a good few months before the market drops the price, and then they'll STILL be making a decent margin instead of an insane margin.

Yup. which is very interesting...
i dont have much of a liking to the aussie stuff anyway... so it doesn't really matter to me
.

once again i think it comes down to the collectors themselves. educated white dudes in scuba gear from australia, where their money is actually worth something, vs. indonesian/etc native free diving in a loin cloth for a few cents that is equivalent to a days wage here.

yeah... i guess. hopefully the aussies wont kill the reefs like the indo's Walt Smith did...

hopefully since they are more educated, both in marine biology, i would imagine, and business, they will protect the reefs as both a natural resource and a revenue stream. as with most businessmen the promise of long-term profit will ensure they manage their sources carefully. the indonesian people were just doing whatever they could to feed their families, they didn't care or have the education to be aware of the harm of overcollection.

yup. long term= better.
IMO we need to put more corals in Cryo for the future...

and do more to encourage mariculture/aquaculture.

I never thought I'd see the day where pufg was the most rational poster in a thread. except that one post about collection practices in autralia vs indonesia. what a load of (vaguely racist) crap, lol.



nate, welcome to the real world - prices for goods and services are determined in large part by the market's willingness to bear them. it's not new, and it's not taking advantage of anyone. if you cannot afford what the market dictates, don't buy them, or wait till you can snag a frag from a friend with deep pockets. someday the aussie craze will end, and another craze will take its place. circle of life and all.

I am hoping the next fad will be coldwater stuff.

maybe then the price in chillers will go down lol

your affable jacob


LOL. hopefully. then i could get a chiller!

prices go up as demand goes up...this whole idea that now they are selling more will drop the price is crazy...supply side costs are going up, (fuel) bag limits only go down (over here at least)...add in fad demand and the prices spike. add in the cost to make a living in australia like was said and yeah they are going to be pricey. dock side value must be much higher than in other locales. i am surprised australia even allows hard coral collection. the Caribbean countries are all ahead of the curve i guess.

from what im seeing it isnt very much of a craze...i mean 2 of my LFS's got it and they are selling the Echinata for about...2/3s less than any online vendor... its a nice coral and all, but honestly... most of them are white with blue polyps...and thats it. i can hardy think that any craze would erupt due to some bleached out looking colonies of Echinata that might turn brown under MH's

The problem with these new imports is that a lot of them do brown out in captivity....cool a brown turd for 150 bucks for a 1" frag

Exatcyl! we dont even know if these guys kep their color or not! aside from that... they're already white for the most part.

Exatcyl! we dont even know if these guys kep their color or not! aside from that... they're already white for the most part.

You know, I've read other threads where people told you they were tired of you dropping your 2 cents into things that you'd done no research whatsoever into and now I finally understand what they meant...

#1, wholesale prices on aussie corals are easily 10x wholesale prices on other indo pacific corals, and that goes for what they cost the wholesalers as well.

#2, supply and demand, vendors can't charge what people won't pay. I can tell you what those echinatas cost wholesale and it's a lot, the wholesaler that carries them also has a $2k minimum order where you get 50% mediocre corals, you dropping that kind of cash for some acros?

#3, http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209271, show me a picture of your frag rack and mother colonies, and we can go from there as to why you're selling .5" nubs of frags for $15 if you've got a lot. Have you seen pictures of ORA's farms by the way? Do you know how many hundreds to thousands of frags they have of a coral that they sell wholesale for $20+? That's about 10x the retail markup of the echinatas you posted. But really, they're abundant and vendors (and you) shouldn't take advantage of the hobbyist like that. BTW I see the "rare" red planet colonies here once every two weeks at least at 6"+ colonies... Same with every "rare" ORA piece... You should email them your concerns though, especially since you have their contact info easily available on the web, please post their reply to you when you get a chance.

#4, Review #'s 1-3, see any retailers driving porches? This isn't an industry you get into to make tons of $$$, this is an industry entirely run by people that love this hobby as much as you do.



Now this is where you crossed the line, and I have to apologize in advance for losing my patience with you.

That is a really bold statement from someone that knows as much about quantum physics as they do about the reef industry, what evidence whatsoever do you have that Walt's huge aquaculture farms, cultured live rock farms that help give locals more money than taking live rock from the reefs, and revolving collection practices cause ANY damage to the reef whatsoever?

Have you ever researched anything about Walt Smith's company other than the fact that they are a coral picking facility? Do you have any idea what they've done for this hobby and the health of the reefs worldwide as a result of their aquaculture efforts? You wouldn't even have a tank right now if it wasn't for Walt, keep that in mind. I fully expect an explanation on your statement and the grounds you chose to make it by the way, and it'd better be good.

Wow, I figured that since you work at an LFS that only exists thanks to Walt Smith your opinion would be more informed.

www.waltsmith.com/media/pdfs/3a_coralPDF.pdf

Looking forward to your explanation as well. You want damaging collection practices by the way do keep me reeeeeeeal posted on what you find with what's actually going on in australia. More educated in marine biology and business? Prepare to be very, very surprised.

Now after all the OVEERCOLLECTION of rock and corals by that company your going to believe a statement released by that company? what of the statements from divers that had first hand experience and actually saw what happened? theres a whole thread about this...

PS dont EVER PM me...again. thats really annoying. lulz.

im off to find that thread.

Wow, I totally get why people don't like you now... I very much look forward to seeing that thread and reading the statements of non-agenda pushing unbiased environmentalist divers. You ignored what I said about them doing more for aquaculture than the entire planet combined and that corals grow to full maturity in 1-3 years so it's impossible to even single handedly cause that much damage, didn't bother reading the article on how pollution, fishing and construction cause 8 billion times more damage to the reef than anything else, but I remember what it was like being 15 and being exposed for looking like a ridiculous know it all sucks when you're that young so I'll let it slide.

Also, you may own your world of warcraft character or whatever it is that gives you your massive online ego, but on this plane of reality you're a 15 year old kid that doesn't get to tell people who they can pm.

Walt Smith sure isn't a type of savior for the reefs; although maybe he learned from his past experiences of over collecting.

a) they never overcollected, it's actually difficult for it to be humanly possible to overcollect from an area, but like the article said it's easy for people to think so because of the exposure of aquarium corals as opposed to concrete and pollution, and

b ) created the indo pacific aquaculture industry.

Cite your sources if you're going to cite mumbo jumbo...

organism: you should also be forthright in your connection to the aquaculturing industry and how it may be coloring your perception of how much the industry is impacting reefs.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...hreadid=1437433
BING!
found it. now why on earth would he want to extend live rock shipout time?!
Its all about the money... nothing else.

Dude, are you insane? This was the thread that you were talking about? You just gave me a link to a thread that illustrates my point, and not yours, extremely clearly. Did you read it?



I'm guessing that your misguided view comes from Eddie's post.

For me to go into that drama would take about 10 pages, but he screwed himself out of Tonga through some let's say "questionable" practices of raping and pillaging some areas and now spends his time "questionably" exporting coral into the US with "questionable" lack of permits. He was exposed by someone and is now flinging poo at them.

There's too many vendors that rely on this guy for his "questionable" exports of watermelon chalices, dendros, rhyzos and other pieces for me to risk going into it in detail publicly without stepping in some serious poo. Everyone knows rhyzos are illegal to import right? Anyone want to take a guess as to who they come from? Anyone? Watermelon chalices that rolled through a few years ago, anyone wanna guess if those were illegally imported? You're going to argue with me with quotes from an illegal exporting scumbag that is exactly what's wrong with this industry?

This post sums it up http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php...amp;postcount=9

Nate, you need to READ about this industry and not quote idiocies. Again, you lack any evidence for any statements you made aside from quoting stuff an illegal exporter that you never even heard of posted. When you physically go to Fiji and see a real reef you'll think wow, that was a dumb argument to try and have. You're one of those Cartman kids whose self esteem issues won't let them ever admit they're wrong, so here, you won, you're totally right, I completely apologize for ever thinking of debating such a worthy adversary. Let it ####ing go already.



I'm pretty transparent

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209304

I used to run Fraggle Reef, now I work at a wholesaler focused more on aquaculture and wrote a book on farming to help advance the movement. I'm currently helping to implement coral farms in Turkey, Israel, Spain, and India FREE OF PAY (about an extra 20+ hours a week) to internationalize coral farming because I believe in the movement, my "connection to the aquaculturing industry". Oh no, wait, I sent them copies of my book for free, and had to buy a skype headset thingy, so I guess it cost me money. There are very few people in this country that are as up to speed on farming or care .01% as much about it as I do, which is why the things I know that most hobbyists don't are "coloring my perception."

I'm trying to clear those things up in this thread because all of the misconceptions Nate has regurgitated in this thread damage the farming movement that I have basically dedicated my life to, and quite frankly am tired of getting jumped on by people that have no clue what they're talking about. I say "two plus two is four" and I'm getting told that not only does it equal 3, but that the world is flat. Do you have any idea how frustrating that is? Put yourself in my shoes man

Wait....Are you Miguel?!?!?!?!
HOLY SHMACK.
I loved fraggle reef back then!!!
you shoulda told me before...

Thanks Nate, hopefully we can bury this and just be cool

I do apologize for getting testy, no excuse there, very few things just hit the wrong nerve with me but unfortunately things that can inadvertently hurt aquaculture are one of them. You have no idea how badly fish and wildlife wants to shut coral imports down right now due to misconceptions like these

Wait so you are Miguel?
cuz dude. I MET YOU!

PS what happened to FR?!?!?!?!? it was soo AWESOME

Yeah nate can be a pain in the butt!
And he has a HISTORY of not reading things!

As usual, just busting your chops nate.

Well then, I feel like a douche now This thread will serve as my reminder that arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics...

My buddy Brian runs FR now out near the 405 and the 10, he's been getting in some great stuff recently. I'm really happy that someone that cares about it as much as I did is running it, his farm system is sick too, he's got my old one beat If you want a tour of the wholesaler that I work at feel free to pm me, you've got a lot of passion for the hobby and would probably learn a ton about how it all works from a behind the scenes look!

firstly. itsalllguud.

secondly... DOOOD. why'd you leave?!!?!?!?
i knew you were on your way out so thats why i came to visit that last year...
as for the wholesaler tour, i worked at an LFS this last summer and we had to go to a super crappy wholesaler just about every tuesday... and i mean it SUCKED. (its called Pan Ocean and its the only one we go down here in the bay so we have to deal with it ) anyways i know that most of the LA wholesalers are super clean and stuff it would be cool to see a clean one opposed to a super dirty one.

As an Australian who lives basically right at the source, let me weigh in on the topic -- a lot of the prices abroad are dictated by collection licenses here as well, and not just the consumer price drive over there. The governments (both local and federal) are incredibly strict about who can take things from our marine parks (which the entire of the Great Barrier Reef just so happens to be) and even moreso about who and how much can be exported and to where. Not to mention our collection and handling tends to be worlds ahead of the Northwest Pacific countries also dealing in coral. Because of it, you end up with $150 1" frags of things which are collected abundantly elsewhere.

As I see it there's several benefits to this practice - firstly, as prices increase, demands fall because those willing to pay the prices decline in numbers. Secondly, there is less corals being collected wild from the environment, and that which is collected tends to have a much better chance of survival because of the stringent manner in which it's handled. Thirdly, it helps to ensure that people willing to pay such prices are actually capable of keeping and maintaining it, which in turn helps assist with the repression seen in the first two points. Fourth, it helps to educate other collecting nations on the importance of best practice when it comes to collection and export. Without these steps, sad fact is, we are almost assured to screw things up as we have everywhere else.

If you're not happy with the price of something, don't pay it. It's not exactly rocket science. Nobody is demanding that you buy it, and hell, at the very least it helps ensure that those that REALLY want it have it and not every man and his dog.


For what it's worth, I nearly bought an A. enchinata quite similar to those, 3" frag for $10 the other day. Get your own corals from your own reefs and then complain about the prices being asked, and I'm sure we'll do the same when you guys are sending something worthwhile back...

how do the handle collection licenses there? here they did a moratorium on new licenses, (they dont allow any true coral collection though), and you have to purchase it from someone grandfathered in, which as you an imagine makes it really expensive.

id argue MOST businesses are NOT in it for long-term profit... many western businesses are ran with the ideology that the end of the world is near (rapture) and that we must use all of the resources God gave to mankind before it is too late to do so...
and if they arent thinking about it religiously, they still tend to side with MORE profits NOW not sustainably, than the profits being spread over a long time period, sustainably...
just my .02

Thats funny! They are doing it due to CITES and local Aussie restrictions on where they can and can't take corals. Its a big deal to farm/take corals in Oz from a permits and the like standpoint. That plus the fact that their dive personnel are more expensive due to Oz labor rules plus the coral market will pay market price right now for this stuff is what is driving the cost up. The local business folk would much rather cut as much as they can and run than preserve the reef. After all they are in the business of coral sales and not ecology and preservation.

Yup, that's the most worrisome thing for me about the Australian collection teams. Unlike native indo pacific islanders who want to feed their families and relax they're motivated by cash and western ideals of greed and success, and unfortunately they have the western technology to back it up. These guys have up to date boats and dive gear compared with indo's pangas and hookas. They know Aussie CITES are getting closed sooner rather than later and are doing a ton of damage down there as a result.

So when it comes to Indonesia there's no such thing as damaging the reefs from over collecting, yet in Australia there is? What's your connection with Walt Smith, since it appears you're trying to cover his tracks.

Oh for the Love of Bob!

Of course there is damage in Indo to the reefs. Usually NOT from coral collection though. Try pollution, tsunami, coral used as a building material, dynamite/cyanide FISHING, and climate change.

Here are some *REPUTABLE* sources on the subject:

http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/visions/coral/side.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/31/world/as...-indonesia.html
http://www.coralcoe.org.au/news_stories/earthquakedeath.html
http://www.worldwatch.org/node/1697
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...e-video-ap.html

As to Miguel aka Oraganism's link to Walt Smith... Please. Try taking a look at the book Practical Coral Farming and then come back and make an intelligent comment.

As to Aussie coral farmers vs. Indo ones... Think about it. Oz is a first world nation with first world technology at their disposal. That means they can dive longer, deeper, and more often than others and thus have more access to more corals. Furthermore the attitude and philosophy of the divers and business is allot different than a native Indonesian's. The local Indo diver is wanting to feed his family and make enough money to be comfortable. It really is the Island mentality. Doubt it? Go to Hawaii and hang with the locals. Sure you will get he occasional Howlie thinking local but its allot more rare.

The Aussie diver wants the nice car, nice house, and the like. Furthermore Its a cast iron B1tch to get a permit to harvest corals in Australia but those that have those permits don't care two cents about what damage they are doing. They care about making as much money as they can as quickly as they can.

Urchinhead's message answers it all, but with the actual damage think hard, how many hundreds to thousands of species are exported out of the indo pacific and how many species are exported out of australia? How many ultra aussie lords were coming in two years ago and how many today.

In Australia they're exporting thousands of acan lord colonies monthly because they can charge a ton for them, so only those corals are getting targeted in mass amounts, and only the nicest ones are in the crosshairs at all times. Aussie divers want to cash in and they want it now, the ocean is their ATM and its limit is a black american express card, indo-pacific divers want to feed their families and kick back to enjoy life. It's hard to even comprehend the lifestyle that those guys live over there since thinking outside of the "material possessions = good life" box we live in over here is very hard to do.

Addendum to my post to stop the absurd wankery and jiggery pokery I expect from the various fanny's here:

I am generalizing here when I speak of both the Aussie and Indo divers/coral collectors. Each person is different. Each company is different. Some do care. That said I promise you that if a person is in business regardless of the business they are there to make money. Be it to feed their families or to drive a nice car. They may or may not care about the environment et al and the damage they are doing but at the end of the day all that matters is the P&L (Profit & Loss). That is what a business is about. Its not about saving the whales or making the world a better place. Those things are called charities.

And even then allot of the so called Charities are also in the business of making money. After all there are reputable reports where up to 90% of the donations collected by certain charities go to "overhead" and only 10% make it to the thing that said charity is trying to help and the median % is 60 one has to wonder...[1]

[1] Supporting documentation:
http://www.charitywatch.org/criteria.html
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?...ew&cpid=400

mes thinks we should stops taking from the reef.

Jingle bells jingle bells jingle all the way!
Oh what fun it is to ride in a one-horse open sleigh!
Jingle bells jingle bells jingle all the way!
Oh what fun it is to ride in a one-horse open sleigh!

I agree, which is why I personally boycott all commercially caught seafood and "aquacultured" fish. On a side note, the vast majority of farmed fish is actually fed thousands of tons of ground up commercially caught seafood and are run by anti-fishing special interest groups. Isn't that ironic? Yet another in a long list of things that make you go hmmmmmmmm...

Between that and the pollution issues we could save every reef in the world

the purpose of the food aquaculture industry is to reduce the cost of importing popular food fish, like tilapia for example, and to take pressure off wild stocks that are popular (like striped bass, sturgeon or cobia). It isn't to save fish scraps that are otherwise lost in the filleting practice, or to take pressure off bait fish that are abundant. what do you think those fish eat in the wild? fish love killing other fish and eating them, it is their thing.

Tilapia are used as "janitor" fish in Kent Seatech (not Ken Marine) down somewhere in SoCal. they raise a bunch of fish there and then sell them live or frozen to markets around the US.
Hooray for intuitive thinking!

nastiness...you eat what you want nr nate, but you will never see me eat a farm raised tilapia. i have seen the farms, no thanks.