So I'm finally deciding on a 40 breeder to start my first tank ever.. Here's my plan, please tell me if you see something wrong with it!

Lighting-
175watt 20k Metal Halide Pendant (has a weird shape so that heat goes up instead of down, so it won't heat the tank)
Filtration-
Call me crazy but I wanna try just plan natural.
AquaticLife Internal Mini Protein Skimmer 115 (It's up to 30gal so I don't even think it'll do much, but it's better than nothing)
Live Rock + Sand... I really don't know how much to start with, many people tell me 35lbs is good but then others say more like 50lbs or random numbers.. Can someone please give me a good idea and give a reason why they think so?
Chaeto.. I'm thining of sticking a pretty nice chunk, about 3-4fingers wide of chaeto in a small corner of the tank for added filtrage? What do you guys think of this idea also?
Flow-
Koralia 3
Might add another Koralia 2 or ..
Salt Mix-
Tropic Marin
Water-
Here lies the biggest concern.. I don't have a RO/DI or the money for one.. And the nearest store that has any is over 45mins away.. =( what can i do?
Heater-
Jager 150 W Heater 13 inch UL Approved
Live Stock-
2 Clownfish (Not positive on which yet)
1 Yellow Tang
1 Watchman Gobby
Do I have room for anything else? I really want a starfish also, one that looks colorful or a clam! Please tell me what you think of either..
Corals-
Polpys---
Glove Polpy
Random Zoa's
LPS---
Hammer Coral
Bubble Coral (maybe)
Some kind of Favia
A Few Acans
SPS---
Different Digis

(The Coral list is not defiant whatsoever, it's just a little idea list i got from searching some online shops.. But a general outlook I would say...)

On the LR issue it really depends on your preference.. a general rule is about 1 lb per gallon, but it really depends what you like.. some people like very little bc they think it makes their tank look bigger and some a lot cause it gives alot of nooks and crannys for fish. Just figure out the style of reef you want.. maybe look at other peoples FTS's and go with that.



and probably dont add a tang in your 40 breeder.

The tang and clowns are what I want the most, you really don't think I can have a tang? I've seen one for years in a 20L very happy and a 40b is 6" more!

Is there more of a benefit if i use 45lbs instead of 35lbs?

I updated filtration, check it out about the cheato

The MH will still heat the tank.

2 Koralina 2s would work better than a single 3.

Check out Reef Central's sand bed calculator of how much sand you need for the depth you would like. Rock depends on density.

No Tang

Check you local reef club and craigslist for an RO filter and used equipment.

A full grown tang will not be okay in the 40 breeder. A little baby might be but you will have to move it out. So *IF* you get one, get it little and then get it out when it gets big. I wouldn't recommend it though. You should get a flame angel instead.

actually the swimming room for a tang in a 40 breeder should be more than sufficient for a scopas/yellow/black tang type fish. (def not a regal tang or a PB).

because a 40 breeder is so wide, it makes up for its lack of length. its no different than putting a yellow tang in a 90 gallon tall. fish such as a tang dont swim up and down. end of story.

Now who do I believe? Haha! Honestly though, now who do I believe...
I want a yellow tang (so you guys know)

And I'm not to into angels.. I really want some shrimps, like cherry, cleaner, or anemone king shrimps..

ive kept a yellow tang in a standard 55 gallon tank for several years, back in the day. the only reason it died, was negligence on my part (i was like 16 years old, and had more pressing issues other than a tank at the time).

if you do the math...

a 55 is a 48" x 12" tank.

a 40 breeder is a 36" x 18"

WHICH ONE HAS A LARGER HORIZONTAL TYPE SWIMMING AREA (just multiply number 1 by number 2)

should answer your question.

as stated... i DO NOT advise you to keep tangs such as blue regal tangs, and the such in a 36 x 18 tank. but a yellow tang definitely should do fine under proper care.

-dan

I have seen yellow tangs in 40bs plenty of times.

Thanks buddy, then it's settled! I shall have a baby yellow tang! =D

Did you guys checkout the filtration i changed? I wanna have chaeto, because I think it should help bc I won't have any kind of filter.. What you guys think?

And a star or clam? Ideas?

I think a small skimmer would make your life a lot easier. Chaeto might also have some benifits as well.

as for a clam... all i know is in smaller tanks, as the clam grows, so does their need for calcium and such. are you willing to test your water and keep up with the clam's growing demands?

Hmm.. Seems to me as a clam is a high end invert... Don't know if I'll go down that path till I'm more established then

As for the skimmer, are you trying to say that my skimmer that I have will be good?

Lighting... Do you think I should have it a foot over the tank, or two feet?

Chaeto.. How much do you think I need? And it doesn't need much flow right, so maybe I can even hide it behind rocks so it doesn't kill the display??

a yellow tang huh.
goodluck with it

you will need to feed the tang alot of he will get aggressive, I know I have a kole tang that was the same way.

You have to look at fin/body shape as well. Some tangs are built for agility (yellow/kole/tomini), while others are built for sprints (hippo/regal/pb)

So will a yellow tang be ok or no? what you mean frag alot?

>>2 Clownfish (Not positive on which yet)
1 Yellow Tang
1 Watchman Gobby


he shouldnt be too aggressive toward these fish if he is added LAST...

however, after adding any more fish, OR fish after the yellow tang is acclimated and used to the tank, you may run into aggression problems. also fish shaped the same way as a yellow tang, or is similar in size AND color might lead to fights.

Yeah I'm having very very big second thoughts on the tang.. I'll have to find something as colorful or such... what do you guys think of me having a Green Mandarin Dragonet? Are they hard to keep?

Yes, and no at the same time. It all depends on your tank, and your ability to train it.
Mandarins eat pods, so your tank needs to have a very large pod population (which it can deplete in a matter of days), so you will either need a way to replenish the pod population constantly, or train it to eat frozen foods.

Training it to eat frozens can be a pain in the butt, but buying one from a store that you have seen eat frozen food can make things a lot easier. If i can recall correctly StevieT has a lot of experience in this subject. I'm pretty sure it was his RSM build thread that shows him training his mandarin to eat frozens.
Check that out, and talk to him before making a jump on the mandarin. Either way your tank should be pretty established before you get one. The training to eat frozens can really muck up your tank with uneaten food floating around. While at the same time you want a good amount of pods to hold him off while you try to train him.

You probably want 2 MH lights over it. I started with a single 250w and there was no way that would work. I now have 2 250w's and it is perfect.

The lighting will be fine, but it'll be a little darker around the edges of the tank.

Nothing wrong with natural filtration, all of my tanks are this way. That skimmer probably won't do much, a 30 gallon "rating" is probably a stretch and you're talking about putting it on a 44.9 gallon tank. It'll help a little, but not worth the expense, the electricity consumption, or the heat the extra pump will be putting in your water.

Like I said in your other thread, get however much will look right in your tank. The actual amount isn't as important as the density of the rock. You want porous rock. I would order a 25 lb box of dry Fiji rock from marcorocks.com and then seed it with some quality live rock from local reefers or a LFS. How much live you get will depend on how you want the tank to look.

Chaeto is a good thing, it will be beneficial.

Either find a used RO/DI unit or save up a little longer and buy the Mighty Mite from airwaterice.com for $110. You can't have a saltwater fish tank without salt water, so make sure you take care of your water. This isn't a place to shortcut.

Don't put a Tang in a 36" tank. I don't care if it's a 36" cube, it needs more swimming LENGTH. The 18" front-back dimension helps, but it still doesn't make it right. Tangs dont swim in circles, they swim in straight lines, a 48", 55 gallon tank is the minimum for a Tang for a reason. If you want a tang that badly, keep saving, start with a bigger tank. Don't get one saying "oh I'll get rid of it" or "i'll upgrade", do it right the first time or don't do it at all. Tangs don't fit in nanos. Sorry. Plus, Tangs are dirty dirty fish, even as babies. You don't want that kind of bioload in your tank, not with natural filtration.

Try a lemonpeel angel or a false lemonpeel angel instead. They're equally beautiful, just as hardy, and they won't outgrow your tank. Wanting shrimp has nothing to do with not wanting angels, they're perfectly safe with inverts.

The rest of your livestock looks fine. I'd hold off for a few months to make sure your tank is stable before you try a clam.



cliff notes: Buy good rock, don't get a tang, don't get a clam (yet). Just keep asking questions, nice to see a rookie thinking something through.
Get two Korlias, I would go with a 2 and a 3 in your case. (my old 40b had two 3s, but I like lots of flow)

Totally disagree on a single MH lamp for 36". When I put the single 250w over my 40 breeder there wasn't a little shading, there was a lot. I was using a SE Lumenarc mini reflector which is suppose to have a lot of spread. Maybe a different reflector would do better but the Lumenarc III mini was a no go.

a luminarc hung a bit higher than normal would fix that.

It also depends on how high you mount it from the top of the tank and what you consider an acceptable amount of shade. If it's that bad maybe he needs to consider some t5 supplementation or going with t5s altogether. I doubt his budget has enough room for multiple MHs if he can't afford an RO unit.

I've had a 150 mh + 2x65 PCs over a 40b and I thought it was fine, I liked having the different light levels.

Hrm, I hung the light up pretty high. It was probably about 12" above the tank, maybe I should have hung it higher? Didn't notice the budget part of the post, my bad.

How would you supplement with T5's as i was pondering that before I splurged on the second MH. The width of the Lumenarc (in my case) was the width of the tank, and I couldn't think of a clever way to mount the T5's without them blocking any of the MH light.

He would just have to trim his reflectors to make them work together. DIY work isn't finite, there are millions of possibilities!

my LFS... and when i setup my 30 breeder, myself, i will be hanging the light 2-2.5 feet above the water.

here is a picture of my tank a few months ago with a single 250w in a lumenarc 3 mini

Well Honestly guys budget is my biggest problem, i have just about $300 to get this all up to go.. The lighting idk honestly its a pendant in a hand shape if you look at your hand you will see my formation.. round at bottom and narrows up to a small tube..

I think we need to start a budget list.. I'll reply again in a few hours with a good idea list of the budget and what needs to be bought.. Sorry i'm really busy this minute, see ya guys in a few hours i have much to talk about!

If you have $300 then don't set one up, I wouldn't even use a nano with that.

Well I already have a Koralia 3, 50gal sand bag of tropic marin, and a 175watt 20k MH.. I really don't need to much more do i? Here's a budget list I created guys!

40 Breeder tank $60-70 i think from petland
Live rock (Hopefully I can find for $3 or less/lb) 50# for $150
Live sand (40-60lbs for $1-2 hopefully) $40-60
Heater - Aquarium Pharmaceuticals RENA SmartHeater 200 Watt $35.99

That's about $320 just to get started.. For the first month it's not like I'll need lighting or anything right? I got a mini skimmer already to help me a TINY bit so for that cycle period I can gather up alittle extra cash and off that If I have enough I'll start my live stock.. or invest in another MH maybe? I have to figure out what you guys think first.. Do you guys see something wrong here?

What about fish/corals? You're going to have a bare tank.

I would wait a save up a bit more, no rush and I understand the wanting to do everything as fast as possible.

Well for fish and corals I will go about on a separate list right now I really really need to get an estimate on STARTing the tank up just plain bare.. What do you guys think so far? I'm really open to any thoughts/ideas/ even rants.. thanks guys!

I think you will be fine, just cycle the tank for a month and you will have time to save up money for fish and corals. Its not like you have to stock the tank 100% with expensive frags the first chance you get.

My 40B has 40lbs of live sand, and its like 1.5-2inches deep, just a heads up you might not want 60.
And you dont NEED lights during the cycle, but if there is nice hitch-hikers on the rock that require lights you will want to run them, even if its for a shortened time.

A lot of people make this hobby out to be more expensive at the start then it needs to be. You will probably have this tank for a good while, there is plenty of time for fish and corals.
Oh and my 40b was $109 at petco

Only 40lbs? That makes a BIG difference in the budget also, considering the tightness of it

Thanks for the heads up bro, but 109 at petco! That's insane! I know the 30breeder was about $50-60 at petland, I don't think 4inchs will almost double the price! I'll have to check tomorrow or sometime, thanks for the support though buddy!

Sounds to me like you're ready to go for a cycle. If you want my working list, check this out. I've found everything I want, but the only things i've managed to get so far were free. Think of this as worst case pre-stocking. Hopefully I come in way under.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tte...amp;output=html

Thanks for the heads up about petland. We've got one in downtown. There's another $50 in savings.

No petland here around me so i got screwed.
Heres 40lbs of black in my 40b, just to give you an idea
granted its not this thick all over the whole tank, due to flow pattern.

I paid 90 for my 30b and just bought a 40b today for 135 but came with stupid light and glass top.If i where you and not in a hurry i would order some marco rock or something.Your money will go a long way when buying dry rock if not in a rush anyways.

DRAllison, check this out
Link

I know its not the tek fixture, but could save you money if you are interested
and this for your fuge
Link

Dont know how long these prices will last though.

Wow guys thanks a TON for all the help!

That spreadsheet wasn't a bad idea at all, you're going the sump/fuge route which is why you're really gonna be spending out the a$$ and even as a complete newb I can say you really don't have to do that unless you honestly want to and have all the money

I'm having really big thoughts on getting a 36" fixture of some sort or something.. Everyone's really getting mad at me over the 175w 20k MH.. I'm in love with the blueness it has so badly, but I haven't seen it hung over a real tank yet so Idk what to do yet and everyone is telling me to get a T5 or another fixture.. What are your thoughts guys?

Anthony, sounds like you're off on the right foot. $300 really isn't a lot to work with. There's another thread up now where a guy is asking if $2K is enough to set up a 39gal all-in-one tank. You've considered the necessary basics, but what about the little stuff like test kits? Also, the 40b costs about $100-$130 depending on where you get it. Seems as though the price recently went up on these bad boys.

If I were you I would get more dry rock and seed with a few choice live rocks. The cycle will take longer, but it'll save you a lot of $$. Also, I wouldn't bother with a skimmer for the time being. I went cheap and bought a cheap skimmer and I regret it. Save for a good skimmer to avoid wasting money. It will be an important piece of equipment in your tank. As for the chaeto, add it when you need it. You can chance starting your tank up with tap water. But I would try to find a source for filtered water eventually. I use a water refill station at the grocery store or at Wal-Mart. It's like $.29 per gallon.

*edit* I think you'll be fine with a 175W 20K MH... Who cares if there's shadow around the edges? Honestly that's what you want because not all corals will tolerate being directly under a MH. Is it a mogul base or DE? Typically the mogul fixtures (screw-in) have slightly better coverage. You could certainly add a T5 or PC as a supplement if you find that you want more light than the MH, but honestly I would test it first.

Here's my spreadsheet. I was WAY off..


Good luck!

It has screw in bulbs so I'm guessing mogul, sorry im a noob, and personally, *I* love it so I really think I'm going to stick with it... As for the dry rock, I think i might get some from macro rock, but I feel like live rock is better because it can bring many corals for free, which would be really cool to me, what do you think? I know my budget is low but when I honestly think about the type of setup I really am going to do, which is very minimal and simple, I don't even consider the crazy prices some people say, like that 2k person, btw i read that thread, so yeah.. Give me any feedback on what you think, thanks for the heads up too ajmckay~!

Using all live rock isn't necessarily better. Here are some things to consider:
1) Live rock is more expensive (probably 2-3x more)
2) Live rock may, or may not have hitch hikers. Uncured mail order rock is most likely to have hitch hikers.
3) Not all hitch hikers are desirable. In addition to the random polyp you can get all sorts of crabs, worms, parasites, etc... So you get the good with the bad.
4) Dry rock will become live rock pretty quick.

Of course my intention in posting this isn't to make your mind up for you. Some people swear by only using the freshest uncured LR. Others won't touch the stuff and they'll start with 100% dry rock. It honestly depends on what you get. I used probably 2/3 dry rock and I hand picked 3 good pieces of well cured, coralline encrusted LR from a variety of stores to get a wide diversity of organisms.

I suppose my best feedback is to plan for the unexpected. You're definitely going to run into some unplanned expenses eventually, so plan them into your budget now. Don't cut corners with equipment purchases, but rock and livestock is definitely an area where you can work your budgeting skills. Instead of paying the $60 for 40lbs of "live sand" buy dry aragonite for 1/2 that. Seed it with a handful of sand from a friends tank or from the LFS (or just let the LR seed it) and you'll never know the difference in a month.

+100000
i agree totally with ajmckay here. If you really want to save money, and dont mind a longer cycle or stabilization of your tank go with non live sand, and base rock (non live rock).
Your sand will become live, and the base rock will become live. (as long as you get a few pounds of live rock to compliment the base rock). Also i agree with the get a scoop of the sand from the lfs or a friend, but as he said the live rock will seed the bacteria into the sand.

Also what ajmckay said, go with the light if you like it, try it out for awhile and if you end up not liking it use it to limp you along until you can afford a different fixture. No big deal, as long as YOU are happy with your tank thats all that matters.

I only posted those light fixtures for DRAllison, i wasnt trying to sway you into changing your lighting decision.

My 40b isnt hooked to a sump btw, if it makes you feel any better about your decisions. But then again i keep a low bioload.

Thanks! It's too bad I told myself I'm not spending any money on this thing other than the stand until January. I like the nova extreme series. We'll see what happens when it's time to spend cash. I might find what I want in the classifieds before then.

As for the sump, it's just something I really want to do for the long term health of the tank and I really want to keep some more interesting critters down the road. The spreadsheet is just there to help get you started.

THIS! Do this! This is the third time I've mentioned it now, I promise it will save you money.

Your $320 still doesn't include a water source...are you really going to spend all of that money and risk it all on some tap water?

Some people have pristine tap water, or if your like me its so terrible it might give you cancer lol!
(wouldnt risk it unless you know for sure though)
But i agree, find out how much your going to need for good water, the 40b holds almost 45 gallons (less once you add rock and sand though) so your going to spend 20-50 bucks on ro/di or di water if you dont have a unit to make it yourself.

and misc stuff like test kits, hydrometer, thermometer.

i dont think i remember or asking you, is this your first salt water tank? if not you might have this stuff already.

pristine tap water is still tap water. There is stuff within it you cannot test for or is very difficult to test for.

thats why i said i wouldnt risk it unless you know for sure

Yea and I know some ppl are going to kill me for this but I've only done 1 Water change on my 50breeder when it was running for 4 months. I had a badass skimmer and overfed but I had 60lbs of live sand, chaeto, and 50lbs live rock as bio filtration as well.

edit: I also dosed bacteria as well for the first 2 months

Can you give me a really good site for dry rock? please and thank you..



You mean badass as in good or bad?
What was your food source?
I Would be using about 40# dry/live rock depending on what i pick..
I Think I will also be getting like 40-50lbs of sand, either live or dry I'll have to see..
How much Cheato did you have?