I know I probably should have done this from the get go, but I would like to have mud in my fuge. I currently have about 1/2-3/4" sand in there at the moment. I have a CUC including an emerald crab, turbos, nerites, cerinths, and hermits in the display. I don't want to do anything that will harm them. Is there a way to add mud without causing a major mud cloud in the display? Also, I have looked at multiple mud brands, but I'm not quite sure what the best one is to go with. I intend to keep mangroves and Chaeto in there (I actually already have Chaeto in there). Any tips or advice will be greatly appreciated.

the mud cloud is the least of your worries if you use a live product. you'll cause a mini cycle.

but you're probably screwed as far adding mud without a cloud, unless you drain your fuge first.

^ this

If you want to avoid a cloud, you'll need to drain it first and refill it cleverly. Your CUC is made of of hardy animals but there's no knowing how acute the mini-cycle will be.

I'm not intent on using something live. I think I could just mix it up with the sand that is already in there. As long as the mud cloud won't kill anything I won't be too worried. BTW, you are fast as lightning. I literally just posted and you already replied.

i'm just bored and you ask easy questions.

I do still have a mostly full bottle of SeaChem Prime that I could use to detoxify just in case. What do you think?

You could try to cure the mud first.

If it's not a live mud, then I wouldn't worry about the cycle.

I like what DHaut is saying, however I wonder what you mean by "mud"...?

"You" = rizakaniza

Does anybody have any recommendations as far as product?

haven't used the reefcleaners mud, but it looks like good stuff. what exactly do you want it for? it's not needed for mangroves.

It's not so important what I mean by mud as what would be considered a good mud to use.

^ Another good question.

All "products" that I can think of are "live". If you want a non-live "mud", it's something you'll need to make up I think.

Curing the mud would be a little complicated in that you would need to cycle it in the refugium because as soon as you move it, it'll need to "cure" again.

I have been reading about a system slightly different from the Berlin where a DSB of Mud is used in the fuge to be heavily planted with macro. This achieves 3 things:

1) adds trace minerals into the tank
2) different species of bacteria thrive in mud than in sand adding to biodiversity
3) simulates natural filtration (like in FLorida where nutrients are washed out to mangrove areas)

I don't recall the name exactly, but it was something like Ecosystem vs Berlin

the whole thing sounds like a bad idea....I wouldnt recommend you do it.

It's not something I would do to an established system that has livestock in it, but if it is going to be done, better to do it now.

As in all things aquaria, a risk vs. reward assessment needs to be made.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/...p?article_id=76

first off, that article is from 2003 in the UK....take it for what its worth. half his success comes from the DSB he says....I dont think you want that, right?

the other half he claims is 40 lbs of mud....you wont be able to squeeze that much mud in your tank....

for a 39g tank, I think youre better off just keeping chaeto in the fuge and thats it....just sounds like a big mess in a cramped space...

trace elements can be added with your waterchanges...

Its easy to get caught up in something you read about....a mud refugium in a nano is something Id recommend you not get too caught up on.

I had considered mud in the back of my finnex, but I'm very glad I was talked out of going that route...but if you really feel the need, I guess now is the time...but my two cents is that you reconsider....lots of mess and headache for little to zero real-life benefits.

Has noone had success with Mud in a nano fuge? What would be the reasons I would not want to do this?

its a mess....especially in such a cramped area. size to benefit ratio doenst add up. I've lurked here since 2004 and cannot recall a nano with mud....

I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert, but I would advise you to really think about the effort vs. the real reward....

and when that reward is bacteria and trace elements....I'd assume opt for water changes, chaeto and live rock....and not a couple of scoops of mineral mud.

This. Plus, biodiversity decreases over time in our small contained systems (something Fosi taught me). So, you won't notice a difference in tank stability or nutrient reduction by adding mud over just keeping a couple inches of sand with chaeto and maybe mangroves.

also, when I had looked into this...(it sounded cool, I admit) I was told that I'd have to replace the mud at some point, and I would be hating life when that was the case in a cramped, nano-sized fuge like the CADlights/Finnex setups have. talk about a mess....sloppy old fuge mud, a bucket, and a wooden spoon....big fun

Hahaha! Good points. Well, I would at least like it to be a DSB in the Fuge.

Again, even a DSB isn't going to be very effective in such a small space. The only benefit would be giving the mangroves something to root in very well.

+1 He's finally had an epiphany.

I kinda thought you would assume that's why I would want the DSB in the fuge in the firstplace. That's why I went out of my way to mention I wanted mangroves. After kinda thinking about it again last night, I may experiment with a little non-live mud and mix it up in the sand currently in there. Isn't nano-reef.com for those that didn't want to be told it couldn't be done...

I guess it all depends on how much you want to experiment with your investment...in terms of risk.

What do you stand to gain by doing this?

How will you measure the effectiveness?

+1 to whomever recommended 2" of sand and chaeto in your fuge. That, in itself, will be a home to many beneficial organisms.

You have been given some very good advice by those who have responded. Just saying.....

don't get snippy, sonnyjim. you don't need a dsb for mangroves. i already said a couple inches will be fine.



and I like this guy

I'm sorry. I repent of my snippiness.

now go, and snip no more.

As I said before:



You (rizakaniza) asked for opinions and you have gotten them. Many people, including myself, don't see how this can provide a benefit that justifies the risk/work, but that is our opinion... The opinion you asked for.

You are welcome to do whatever you wish with your system, a fact that I (others here) recognize. This is why I tendered advice about how I would do this if I were to do it myself even though I have stated that I don't think it's a good idea. If you want to give it a shot, I say go ahead and do it. I am all about experimentation and I have done a fair amount of it myself. Just understand that you are operating off the trail and need to be prepared for unfavorable results.

Additionally, you need to understand that most of the guidelines that people follow in aquarium husbandry aren't completely arbitrary. People on this thread have laid out their opinions and provided some of the reasoning behind them. If you don't agree, then just say so and state your counter argument... Or don't and go do whatever you think is best.



LOL



LOL LOL

Good form fellas.

Fosi, I do highly value your opinion. I guess I was second-guessing last night, because I don't feel I was actually given reasons why it would be a bad idea. The following would have convinced me:

1) Your tank may explode. There was a guy who added mud to his fuge and his tank exploded.
2) Mantis Shrimp will seep our of the mud and eat you while your sleeping as evidenced by some guy I knew that it happened to.
3) Adding mud to your fuge will cause a black hole and swallow up your CUC. It happened to me last week.

...Point being, I was hoping for some sort of opinion based on either experience or heresay.

In my mind it seemed plausible that adding mud to the fuge would add a greater concentration of minerals (including trace) that would aid in healthier macro (i.e. mangroves), corals, and add to the biodiversity.

I don't think I actually made this point clear, so here goes. Initially, it will do what you are hoping. In a year, it will just be a huge mess, your biodiversity will have come to an equilibrium with the great majority of initial sp. of organisms being consumed or dying off, and your macros will have consumed whatever nutrients were initially there and will be feeding off nutrients you are introducing in the form of fish food (then being turned into poop) and water changes.

So, like Fosi said, if you want to do it, go for it. It will be beneficial for a while. However, the benefits will be short lived, imo.

Edit: I should say that I did a lot of research around this myself - specifically on the benefits of live sand. I used some sealife inc. live sand in my tank, but haven't noticed any huge benefit of doing so. On the contrary, my tank exploded with amphipods that ate all my macros.

Whoa! That sucks!

In addition to what DHaut said, burt mentioned that a larger issue is the volume ratio you are dealing with.

You will be adding, at most, a couple hundred cm³ of material to a system that is 147,631 cm³. That means you'd be supplanting only 0.01% of the total system volume with your sand-mud mix. That means that when you remove the sand, which provides none of the "trace" elements you desire, you are adding significantly less than that already pithy 0.01%.

It seems intuitive that an addition of <0.01% by volume of "mud" won't have any measurable affect, positive or negative on the well-being of your system.

In addition to this, when you decide to remove/change it over (which is suggested you do once a year), you expose yourself to a lot of risk. Risks related to the release of poisonous compounds that are present in high concentrations in anerobic sediments. Things like H₂S and NH₃. Not to mention any metals that you may not want in your system that accumulate and are perfectly labile in those conditions.

Hrmmm, that is much more convincing. I don't want to risk that.