Just noticed this last night. These pictures are from ten minutes ago, and it looks about the same as yesterday..







(trying different white balance)

too early to tell, most pinched mantles ive seen were throughout the clam, not just in one spot....I'd wait and see if it spreads.

that said....your little buddy does not want to be touching the glass like that....move him back and to the right about 2 inches.

what is a pinched mantle???? and why is it bad? Sorry to hijack this thread

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=clam+pinched+mantle

Burtbollinger----> <---Polok121

ahaha...I've been waiting to use it

Also,

It's the only clam I have in my BC14. Water parameters are as follows; I need a new MAG test so I can't test at the moment (getting one tomorrow)

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Phos - 0
SG - 1.025
kh - 8
Ca - 480
PH - 8.2 (I did use some marine reef buffer in the last week to raise the PH up from 7.8ish, I don't usually like using buffer, but couldn't get my ph up)

I am running chemi-pure elite, which I *believe* has GFO in it, and I've read that GFO might be bad for clams?

I have a firefish, and ocellaris clown. I haven't spotted either getting in the clams business.

CUC consists of a few nassarius, asterinas, margaritas, 1 blue leg hermit, 2 red legs, and a pom pom.

The maxi is in moderate to low water flow, the mantle might lift up slightly every so often...

And it's under LED's.

Did I miss anything?




I've moved him a few times, and he keeps moving back to that spot, and he's attached to the bottom of the tank. I didn't hear about putting shells underneath it till after it attached....

You can easily detach him by using a flat razor blade pressed against the bottom pane of glass that he is attached to in order to cut the byssal threads. Just be careful and gently push against the side of the clam with your other hand as you slide the blade under to give you a bit more room. Make sure the blade keeps contact with the glass otherwise you might accidently damage the byssal gland.

I'll give that a shot tomorrow, I need a fresh clean razor blade. Also, he moved for a reason right? And why can't they be next to the glass, just curious?

Do you recommend me putting shells underneath him to attach to? How can I keep him from moving back again?

I only had to cut a few strands, the rest were attached to some of the larger pieces of sand. I moved him where Burt suggested, by this morning he had moved himself up out of the sand, and he is just sitting on top of the sand.

There is another spot that is beginning to concern me. If you look at the picture with the entire clam, the top second in from the right "flap" has a pinch in it. And now there is stringy stuff coming off of it that has bubbles stuck to it....

Any ideas?

Should I consider freshwater dipping it?

I would wait a while if possible, you stressed it by cutting/moving. But because we cant see how it looked before the photo its hard to say if its now or never. You have to decide.

Anyway.... http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/jf/index.php

here is a before shot:



This was the day after I got it. This clam has only been in my tank for a few weeks...

i had to freshwater dip my maximas several times before the pinched mantle was totally gone but barry @ clamsdirect.com assured me that it puts minimal stress on the clam to do a 15 to 20 minute freshwater dip in PH/temp adjusted R/O water

IMO, your clam looks fine. I would keep an eye on it, but don't stress over it. Sometimes I think we can "worry them to death"!

I would really like to leave it alone, but if it does have PM, I'd like to get it early when the clam is strong ya know? And I want more clams!! And dont want them ending up with PM as well...

I am far from an expert.... but...if it were mine.... I would keep a very close eye on it. If It got ANY worse then I would take quick action...otherwise.... I not stress it any more in any way. Good luck and of course I would love updates. PM is hard for me to ID (until its too late) and your pics could be a big help.

Form what I've read across the web, GFO can trigger PM in clams. Which sucks, because I really liked my chemi-pure eilte. It's also been suggested that I run LOTS of carbon in my tank for a bit, and it might clear up the pinching.

I'm going to go grab lots of carbon from my LFS tomorrow. I pulled the chemi-pure elite out already and put some regular chemi-pure in for now.

Seems a little less stressful than FW dips

Will update later

It looks way worse tonight



I just added a bunch of carbon in a sock in chamber three where the sponge use to be (bc14). I'll have to see how well it works over the next few days...

Definately PM... Unfortunately, once PM is in your tank there is no getting it out... FWD's will remove it from the clam, but it will get it back once you put the clam back in your tank. If you have another tank that has never had a clam w/ PM in it, you can FWD this clam and then move it directly into the other tank, else you'll be doing weeking dips to keep it going. Any other clams you add to this tank will also contract the bug. Sorry for the bad news, but I've taken down tanks in the past due to PM and the only cure I've found is what I mentioned above.

yup.....i've done about 5 FWD's on my maximas before it finally decided to subside but i do notice that every 3-4 months or so one of them with get the edges rolled up an i have to do it again

sorry for the news

I dont doubt what you guys are saying. But, what does a place like Clams Direct or LiveAquaria do to their tanks. I would think that with the livestock that runs through there ....every clam in the place would be exposed to PM.

Thats a good question.....

And this sure pooped in my picnic basket. I REALLY like clams, and this is all really unfortunate news. Where do these protozoans come from?

I dont 100% think its pinched mantle (although I respect the expertise of the two guys above who believe it is)...I think its your lighting...look at this article:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/3/aafeature1

I'm confused, perhaps I read the article incorrectly... but doesn't it suggest LED lighting as well?

Perhaps I need to move the clam onto some rockwork?

The white part of the shell has begun to discolor. Which suggests it's unhealthy, but how can I tell if it's the lighting, or PM?

yeah, hes too low...that might be why he keeps trying to move. Keeping a clam low on the substrate with even MH can cause problems....I'd pretty damn sure that marketing hype aside, your LEDs are not putting out the output of a 150W MH////

so yeah, move him up....worth a try innit?

Looking at the last photo, can you tell how much of that growth is before and how much is fresh growth since you got the clam. Its a little hard to say I know as you havent really had the clam long enough:

See photo:


I marked the area of growth with a red line. A clam that is recieving plenty of light will show a NICE CLEAN WHITE growth on the shell. So the clam was healthy when it was recieved.

Out of all the invertebrates that we place in our aquariums, clams require the most intensity of light. Therefore, I would always try and place clams on higher up on the rocks, as central under the lights as possible (with the exception of Deresa clams-which can be placed on the sand). I occassionaly see maxima and croceas on the sand bed with lots of corals that can get away with lower light fragged and puttied high on the rocks.

As regards to pinched mantle, looking at your last photo, I am pretty certain it is PMD. I have had at least 7 clams in the past with this disease. I successfully treated some. I also had PMD on clams that were under 250w halide and 2x39watt T5 combined. The condition looked like how yours is looking in the last photo.

Minh (on reef central) and myself discussed PMD more than 5 years ago. You will need to decide how "far" you will let the PMD progress (hopefully, it will get better), before you commence treatment.

I found that larger specimens had better chance of recovery. Deresa clams recovered best, while small croceas did recover, but PMD would get a hold within a week or even days and cause death eventually.

I am returning to the hobby after 5-6 years being off. My next tank is going to be a mixed tank of some LPS, but mainly SPS and clams. One thing I am certain I will do is have a small tank/container always running seperate to the main display with a small pwerhead and some liverock. So whenever my clams show PMD I will treat them and send them to this QT sort of thing for a couple of weeks and run ozone peraps to possibly kill whatever is in the display tanks water.

Hope some of this is useful to you.

Very useful info Sahin Thanks for that. And no, I can't really tell what growth occurred under my care

As reluctant as I am to stress the clam and move him up "north" in the tank, I'll do so tonight.

For some reason I feel like I had read somewhere in my research that Maximas preferred to be in sand, and crocea's were the rock dwellers. I really don't have a preference myself, I just for some reason thought they preferred it that way, but I'll remedy that.

My next question, since I'll be moving him again, should I consider a FW dip at the same time?

If it were me I'd do another freshwater dip. PM is a heartbreaking thing to go through especially since you have to sit through the process of the clam's progressive deterioration, but before it gets worse, definitely do another FW dip. Good luck with the clam!

I don't know about LiveAquaria, but if you look on some other sites you will find some reviews on Clams Direct. Every clam I've received from CD has ended up with PMD within a week. Barry has fought PMD like crazy including redoing all of his holding tanks (sand included)... But IME they still keep getting it.
Thus I will no longer order from CD.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1591746

As regards your lighting, LED as a form of lighting is new to me. However, looking at your build thread; I estimate, 12x3=36 watts of light.

Not sure of the PAR of these, however going by lumen output, if these provided 105 lumen/watt then

105x36 = 3,780 total estimated lumens.

Compare to a typical 150w metal halide; assume 75 lumens/watt fr arguments sake (MH can get upto around 95L/w)

So, 150x75 = 11,250

Note that this is just based on lumen output, and is just a very crude way to show differance. PAR and PUR are what we really need to look at.

Reason I used Lumens to illustrate this is because as a crude way, you can compare. I used to keep SPS and LPS in a shallow 12 inch high tank using Normal Oruput T8 tubes.

Assume, no more than 60lumen/watt,

3x25watt tube = 75watts total. 75x60=4500

Not saying that LED's are crap, rather I think they are great. However, I think we need to cram more LED's/Watts per unit area.

So, to sum up, I think using the amount of LED's you currently have, it is sufficient IMO for most LPS and even SPS, but perhaps a little lacking for clams. Dont mind me saying this. So, I would place higher up in the tank to compensate.

Just to throw even more confusion into this, read this article by Dana Riddle:

Coral Light Requirements, by Dana Riddle...

In the article above, it shows that even most high powered HM 400w cannot even provide enough light to reach photoinhibition for clams. Whilst for most other invertebrates we can easily provide enough light for mos invertebrates that we keep.

Wow, I think I have written enough today. This has turned into homework! Hee hee. Anyway, read and enjoy the info.

Sahin, I appreciate the all the info

To explain my reasoning, I showed "par" values of an equivalent build in my "clam under LED" thread here. It's my understanding that those par levels are equal, if not higher, then some metal halide fixtures appropriately sized for a 14 gallon tank.

By no means am I encouraging an argument, and in all honesty, the whole reason I started the clam under LED thread was to show progress (if any) of doing so. And while it might be an issue keeping these awesome animals under LEDs, I want to make sure the reason why is valid.

Does that make sense? If the PAR levels I need are there, what else are LED's missing?

While I am certainly not achieving "optimal" Par levels in the sand in the tank (as many have pointed out, and could be remedied by using optics on the LED's), I'm certainly anxious to see if higher placement will help remedy my situation.

So at this point, I'm definately going to move the clam up higher in the tank, but if we're collectively thinking that lighting is the issue, should I still treat it for PM? ie FW dipping.

Btw, Sahin, I don't mind the intuitive info and comments at all. It's all constructive criticism

Also, Calvin, this was a Liveaquaria clam. Not sure if that is of any significance?

Many thanks for taking my posts in the right way. In no way do I want to argue. In fact, as I stated earlier, I am new to LED's so this is all a learning curve for me. In factI actually now bookmarked your ver informatie thread about PAR values from the LED array on your tank. Based on this, I'd say your lighting is definately adequate according to the figures.

I would like to see a graph of spectrum spread from the manufacturer.

I think your clam simply has PMD. I have seen it personally on many clams and clearly see it on your clam. If this were my clam I would give it the FW dip.

I would move the clam upwards though so that it gets the most lightas possible - you can see from the Dana Riddle article that clams need a lot of light, more so than what we think other inverts/corals need.

Hope your clam pulls through. This PMD has been around for years.

I read of a thread a few years back I think where Barry Neigut from Clams Direct setup a fundraiser to get money for research into what is causing the PMD. I dont think any conclusion came out of it/or maybe they didnt do the study, I'm not sure which. But we are not better than where we were 7 years ago when I was into clams and in the hobby.

You could try Metro, but I haven't found a recommended doseage, or proof that it will actually cure PM... I have personally saved a clam by repeated (daily) FWD's followed by introducing the clam to a new tank (right out of the freshwater) that has not had a clam in it prior. Saved a Maxima and it never pinched again (sold it years later).

As for Live Aquaria, if you have never had a clam in your tank before, it sounds like Live Aquaria tanks may now be infected. Bummer, I was hoping they were still clean.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/jf/index.php

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/3/aafeature1

I'll proceed with FW dipping. Is this something I should do once, and expect results? Or do I need to do it once a day for a few days?

Calvin, whats "metro"?

It may take several FW dips to see improvement. Who knows, maybe your first FW dip will kill a bristleworm hiding in the mantle?

metronidazole it's referenced in the articles linked.

IME, the first FWD helped the clam and it looked fine once it re-opened in the tank. However about 48 hours later the pinch was back... I'd recommend doing dips as you notice the clam pinching, you and the clam will start to get into a routine and once this is routine, you could try moving it to another tank if you were inclined to do so.

There are a few threads on reef central as well as one or two advanced aquarist articles on PMD and FW dipping. Read them before you commence FW dips. You should see an almost immediate effect. After diping, your clam may be a little stressed and wont open much or extend fully. But after a number of hours once "it feels a little beter", it will extend as normal and you should notice the mantle looks markedly less flaccid. It gets better as the hours go past and if during the light hours you will see it get better if the dip worked.

But bear in mind differant individuals will react in differant ways. FW dips will certainly not kill and clam on its own if done for the right reasons and done correctly. Its rather like surgery, sure it carries risk of infection or even death, but the benefit outweighs the risks.

Hope things work out for you.

The best place you can go for information on clams is here
http://www.reefaquariumforum.com/
Clam illness, disease, predators, growth, food, etc..
Loads of pics and discussion on pinched mantle.



Make sure that the PH and the temperature are identicle to where the clam has been living or else you can hurt the clam. I've done FW dips for pinched mantle and pyramidal snails for 30 minutes at a time. As a matter of fact thats part of my QT procedure for new clams but the key is PH and temp. Good luck. Oh you may also want to check out a site dedicated to clams that I posted here for you.

don't expect the clam to open up again and look fine afterwards either.....it may look pulled back in to it's shell for a few days before it looks normal

before you get into any kind of meds try a freshwater dip......Barry @ clamsdirect tells everyone who has a problem to try this before anything else.......it's actually much less stressful for the clam than meds

he says the reason for this is where the clams come from.....the areas of southeast asia that they are harvested from are very shallow so during the low tides the clams are exposed to periods where they are partially or completly out of the water and they're exposed to the heavy afternoon rains that are common to that area

It sure does look worse. I saw that you made it to reefaquariumforum. That's great! they know loads about clams.

How long have you had this clam? Have you checked it for pyramidal snails? When you cut the bysall gland did you cut it as close to the class attachment as possible? Could the clam have gotten too close to something that may have irritaded, stung or injured it somehow?

Yes, I made it to RAF a few days ago. I went looking for info on clamsdirect, and noticed that it use to be their old forum.

I did a freshwater dip at about 5pm today, and it went fairly well. I took the opportunity to closely inspect the clams byssal gland, and to look for any sort of physical irritants. Nothing that I could see. Nothing aside from sand and a few bits of rock fell off the clam.

To answer the question on how I cut the strands when it was attached to the glass, I only had to cut a few. Most of the clams foot was attached to larger bits of rock that made it easy to use. It was actually more difficult to dig up the bits of rock it was attached to than cutting the foot. There was almost a suction in the sand... kind of interesting.

The clam does look better already, aside from a small amount of gaping. And honestly, he looked a little better after I placed him closer to the lights (to see where he would fit) BEFORE I dipped him. But I decided that it was less stressful to do both at once. Rather than have him attach to a rock, only to need to cut him off when his condition worsens.

As far as other animals in the tank stinging the clam, it's out of reach of my hammer or frogspawn. I banished my blue leg hermit to chamber one, and hope he has enough to eat back there, but I caught him twice snooping around my clam and new Acro... I had enough of him....

Here's some pics. The improvement is noticeable. I just hope he doesn't start to bleach from the light intensity. He's only about four inches from the surface of the water.

Great! Looks to be doing better. Good luck.

I also wanted to add something that I've seen discussed on "other" forums. Granulated ferric oxide (an additive in chemi-pure elite) has been suggested to trigger PM in clams. I don't quite understand why, but I won't be risking it if my clam pulls through. I've already switched back to regular chemi-pure, which I believe doesn't contain FO.

As you might notice in my pictures, a smidge of the clams lower shell on the right side is against the rockface. This shouldn't hinder it's ability to open I would imagine, correct?

My clams, Derasa and Maxima, sit on the floor of my tank. Personally I wouldn't put them on the rock work in fear that they will attach themselves at a place where they can't fully open and that they may fall and end up face down in something that would injure their mantle. I also use chemipure elite and I have no problems with either clam. There's a great book that anyone that keeps clams should have "Giant Clams in the Sea and the Aquarium" by James Fatherree. I purchased mine on eBay directly from the author at a discounted price. He signs them too.

Got up this morning and the clam was sideways in the sand. I'm assuming a snail or crab wedged itself between it and the rockwork..... He seemed ok, but I had to get to work. Hopefully when I get home he'll still be on the rock where I put him back.

I'll buy the book most likely if the clam survives. Otherwise, I'm somewhat soured on keeping them, and probably never will again.

I'll update when I get home.

I still think he's better off in the sand... but that's just me. If you feel that it really isn't getting the light it deserves then placing it higher would be in your best interest. But once that clam anchors in it's a pain in the butt to try and get it to detach.

Your clam certainly is looking better than the last couple of pics that you posted. Let us know how it does in the week or so.

I wasn't really excited about putting in on the rockwork for that exact reason. In the event I will need to do a FW dip again, it will make removing it more difficult that it being attached to the glass. However, I also want to try whatever possible to improve the health of the clam. But this also bothers me because now I won't know what exactly made it better.... ugh...

It's for the better hopefully. I'll update with pics tonight when I get home. (hopefully it's still on the rock)

You can take a plastic container, one that is big enough to house the clam when it's completely opened, fill with sand then large pieces of rubble rock. Place the clam on/in the rocks. Wait for it to attach to the rocks. Then you can move it whereever you like and not worry about it attaching to other things. Also you can then epoxu the rock that it's attached to to your rock work. Do not attach the clam with epoxy. I have one clam that's attached to rock and the other attached itself to the glass. I was concerned at first that it attached itself to the glass but now I don't mind anymore. It's where I want it to be.

Are you feeding the clam? Do you add phytoplankton (phyto feast or phytoplex) to your tank? They thrive on this stuff and light. Mine are under 2x150w MH and 4x54w T5's for a ttl512 watts. they sit on the bottom of my 75 gallon tank. I also have a very shallow sandbed,less than 1 inch of sand. The derasa was my first clam and I had it in a 24 gallon JBJ nano under 6x18 watt T5's. They're really growing fast under these new lights but the derasa did just fine under the T5's.

in the 75

in the 24 gallon nano