As long as you have two holes in the glass behind your overflow you can use it. You'll need to bring the return line up from the back, though. Here's a pic illustrating the concept:



You don't need to split the primary drain, that's just what I did for the 90g.

The idea is to use the ball valve to tune the drain rate precisely, so that the water in the overflow always stays between the two drain pipes. Thus, the primary drain is always completely under water, no air enters, and it is silent. If something happens and the water rises in the overflow, the second pipe is there as a safety (it is always 100% open... you will hear air being sucked in if it is being used, alerting you to its presence). If the water level drops too low in the overflow, the main drain will just suck in air, you will hear it, and adjust the valve (no risk of damage). Preferably, you should use a gate valve for your tuning valve.

I tuned mine so that the water level was pretty close to the top of the overflow. That way, I didn't have any noise from the drain itself, OR from water spilling over the inside of the overflow. Like I said before, it is dead silent when dialed in.

One more thing: you need to make sure the safelty is capable of draining faster than your pump can pump (so you can never overflow the main tank). In my case, it required 1". That way, if something blocks your primary drain, the backup will be able to handle the whole drain load until you figure out the problem. I also used a strainer (common plumbing part) over the primary to keep this from happening, but it never hurts to have redundant safeties!

There is a big thread on RC about it if you need more info!

To avoid thread-hijacking, my response to Becact re: DSBs:



I've been thinking about this (dangerous, i know).

First, I've never had any measurable nitrates or phosphates since I set up my tank in August. I think that it's possible that phosphates get sucked up by algae in the display just the same as nitrates might get sucked up, thus keeping both undetectable. however, i still attribute algae in my display to a lack of supplemental flow (I only have the stock return pump for flow at this time), which produces dead spots/detritus build-up on rocks and sand, which then turns into localized algae outbreaks.

And, because i'm using the arag-alive fiji pink sand, which is courser than a typical oolitic sand, i'm going to get zooplankton production out of my DSB (using just oolitic, i would primarily just get natural nitrate reduction (NNR) benefits). I have some chaeto in my fuge, as well as a lot of LR. I don't see pod production as an issue at this time (especially being that I have no present plans to keep a mandarin.

I have heard of the DSB "edge effect" theory, though I have not researched it extensively. I don't know that the theory state that the DSB is INEFFECTIVE so much as just LESS effective at NNR. However, I've also heard of many people operating "remote DSBs" by just putting sand in a bucket, basically. Based on my understanding, DSBs are effective relative to the system volume. Now, I'm not sure that the size I have here is big enough to be "ideal" for the display volume -- maybe one day I'll mod my sump by removing the baffles between the return pump chamber and the fuge chamber, and just make that whole chamber a fuge, then switch to a return pump that can be used out of water -- but for now, i think that even a small sand bed is providing a benefit, even if it doesn't achieve the optimal results that a larger, more display-volume-appropriate-sized DSB would produce.

at the end of the day, my nitrates and phosphates are 0. If they weren't, I'd be concerned and would have to begin to more seriously consider taking the DSB/etc. out, changing things, etc. But, as it stands, I have simple/obvious explanations for the algae in my display (flow).

Here are a few on-point excerpts from the wetwebmedia website FAQs on DSB Size:

Small Refugium DSB - 07/26/06
I made a 5 gallon refugium that sits behind my main tank, a ten gallon, with the goals of nutrient export, pod production, pH stability and increased water volume.
<<Excellent>>
I was planning on putting Chaetomorpha, live rock rubble, and some sand in this refugium and running it on a reverse photoperiod.
<<Okay>>
My question is would I see any benefits from a deep sand bed in this size refugium (the sand area's footprint would be 5"X15") or would I be better of with a shallow sand bed and more water volume?
<<Everything is relative my friend...considering the small size of the display, this particular DSB could indeed provide some benefit>>
Thanks a lot for any help you can give me.
Eli
<<Is my pleasure to assist. Regards, EricR>>


Remote DSB
Hello crew at WWM,
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
I’m a marine newbie…my tank is about 4 months old now…I’m thinking of adding a sump to my 55g reef/fish tank. The biggest tank I could fit in my cabinet would be something like a standard 10g tank but about ¾ of the standard height…so I would probably have around a 5-7 gallon sump. I would like to add a 4-5” DSB in it. Is that enough area (volume) for NNR for my 55g tank (around 35-45g of actual water).
<I think that, if you set up the sandbed with a fine oolithic aragonite product, it can have a very positive effect!>
...
<I'd go for it, Ronald! Even a small sandbed can have some very beneficial results! It is certainly worth the effort! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>


DSB (and nitrates) Question 8/18/05
I realize a lot has to do with maintenance, stocking levels, etc. but is there an effective "rule-of-thumb" ratio of Nitrate-consuming sump/'fuge size to aquarium size?
<Not as far as I'm aware, or concerned... the bigger the better... but no minimum, matching value... Just too many other factors to place in a string of variables in such an equation... foods, feeding, lighting... chemistry... temperature...>
<Glad to share. Bob Fenner>

i am definitely considering this. there is very little i like about the durso. I don't really love the concept of running an additional return line up the back of the tank (especially because i have a fan over the overflow, and it seems like it can get "equipmenty" up at the tank surface very quickly for what is otherwise intended to be a fairly minimalist-looking tank. however, the benefits clearly seem to outweigh the drawbacks.

and, my wife would definitely agree that "safety first" is the way to go with this stuff. i spill enough water on our bedroom floor as it is, without even having any tank overflows.

Yup, definitely do not skip the safety drain My 90g used mine every so often; if I didn't have one, water would have spilled over the display tank.

You'll have to draw your own conclusions about the DSB, it's efficacy is still a topic of debate. A better approach might be to just not overfeed in the first place, and do frequent water changes, that way you won't have to worry about a nitrate build up. I think a DSB might be more useful in a very large tank where weekly 10% water changes might not be practical, or cost effective.

While I don't disagree that a safety drain is generally a good practice, I think you also need to consider the setup on which you are installing the safety drain to make the assessment as to whether or not you would be at risk of overflow without the safety drain.

Consider this...the water volume in the return chamber of the CAD sump is not very much. If you run your sump half full, that would be 6 gallons of water in the entire sump. However, when you consider the water displacement created by the return pump, skimmer, substrate, LR, and media you have in the sump, you would have less than 6 gallons of total water volume. If you assume that the 3 sump chambers are equally divided, then you would have less than 2 gallons of water in the return chamber of the sump. Being that the drain chamber and refugium chamber will only drain to the level of the sump baffles, you wouldn't be pushing much water into the tank should the single drain become clogged.

If it did overflow, I don't think it would be much. I am curious though, so if you decide to clog your drain and test it out, please post the results as I'm sure the CAD Pro Team would be interested to know for sure

I don't have a pro, so I don't have to worry about crap like that

in your example, with no safety, you would burn out the return pump. With the safety tube draining into the return section, not only would you not flood, but your pump will not run dry because of it, either. There is really no disadvantage to having one if you run a herbie overflow.

Interesting stuff b. Makes me glad i have the signature series

are any other Cad Pro owners using Carbon, Purigen or Chemi-Pure Elite for chemical filtration?

I'm just running my tank "au naturale" and have been since day 1, and still sporting 0s all around on my cycle parameters + phosphates. on the other hand, i've got a pretty light bioload still with 4 small fish and a CUC, and as pointed out, i think it's very possible that the algae currently inhabiting the tank is "masking" nitrates/phosphates in the system.

so, my thought is 1) it couldn't hurt to add some chemical filtration; and 2) maybe it would suck up some of the fuel that is apparently still feeding my hair algae/small cyano outbreak. and, i have a couple of bags of purigen and some rowaphos laying around, so I figured, eh, why not give it a shot.

if i am going to use these things, though, how do people recommend employing them in the cad pro setup? i could just stick them down in the bottom of my filter sock where all my water from the overflow drains. wouldn't be as good as reactor, but i don't have any reactors, and if i'm spending money, i need to spend it on increasing flow.



... except that you have to run the return line outside of the tank....

full disclosure, i am a wetwebmedia (WWM) believer. i love bob fenner's conscientious marine aquarist book, i think anthony calfo is very smart, and even when i disagree with them, or even if they turn out to be wrong on something, i think that you can always be sure that they've got a good reason for saying what they say, and have at least given their position thorough and academic thought/research/discourse.

i acknowledge that there is debate over the efficacy; i just don't know that i agree with it. the WWM folks seem to think that a lot of concern over the use of DSBs may have to do with improper installation/husbandry/etc. They say that, in their experience, a lot of people who've had failed DSBs don't use appropriately-fine sand, for instance, or make the DSB too shallow.

in response to your point about DSBs being more useful in a very large tank, not to belabor a point, but again the WWM folks seem to be on board with the concept of a DSB being a beneficial addition to any size tank. the DSB FAQs even cite specifically to a 10g tank with a 5g refugium as being a setup that could benefit from the addition of a DSB.

i think this brings up several good points to discuss.

1) i agree that this could result in running the pump dry. however, running pump dry = better than overflowing tank in my bedroom, especially because my electrical equipment is on the floor near the tank (at least at this time).

2) if you have an ATO, you could certainly risk pumping more than just the return chamber's capacity into the tank. you could pump out the whole ATO reservoir onto your floor AND run your pump dry.

3) UNLESS you could somehow use a float valve or something to create a fail-safe. my idea is that you could install a small float-valve (with snail guard, i'd imagine) in the overflow box, and connect that to an on-off switch for your return pump. that way, no matter what happens, you don't risk the return pump overfilling your display.

(does anyone already make that? if not, i am hearby staking my claim as "first to invent" for patenting purposes).

NOW... if this float valve works, i can install a simple stand pipe like in the herbie, and still run my return pump in via the same bulkhead. this will also give me an excuse to hard-plumb my sump, which i've been wanting to do anyway (flexible hosing = gets in the way, plus i want to have some valves for when i do water changes/maintenance/etc.).

who's on board with this?

Tim,
You don't have a 10g tank with a 5g refugium. If you did, I can see where you might stand to benefit from a DSB. What you have is a 39g tank with a thin sandbed and a 2g refugium with a very DSB. Because you have such a DSB in your refugium, I doubt the water volume in that chamber is even 1g. If your goal is better nutrient export, then I would argue that you would see far greater benefit with a 2" sandbed in your refugium chamber with a bunch of macroalgae and good lighting.


Yep...if you use an ATO, then you would most certainly overflow if you had a drain clog. I don't use an ATO as my daily topoff is relatively minimal.

This is a very fair point about the size of my refugium. i do run a little more than half full in my sump (probably about 8.5" up from the bottom rather than 7.5"), but still, i think it's true that i shouldn't mistake my sump volume for my fuge volume.

as far as water column height/volume over the DSB goes, i don't know that it's really a factor for effectiveness. WWM says that you only need enough water over a DSB to keep the sand surface wet. i think that this is because the volume of the sand is what is important. all the water will eventually (ideally) make it to the sand, but the surface contact area for the sand is the finite resource here.



ya know, i guess i don't have a super specific goal (e.g. "nutrient export" or "natural nitrate reduction (NNR)" or "pod production") because i put the DSB in on day 1 prophylacticly, not in response to some issue i was experiencing or trying to avoid because of my planned stocking/etc. i do think that nutrient/organic export certainly is a goal, but i think the DSB can be used beneficially in conjunction with the chaeto. WWM often times will recommend using the two together, but they certainly don't take the position of "get rid of the DSB, just use the chaeto" -- if the chaeto were just a flat-out better alternative that does the same thing, why wouldn't they just say skip the DSB and just grow the algae? my thought is that it's because DSBs do something that chaeto doesn't: NNR. the inhabitants of the DSB are certainly detritivores, and that increased biodiversity is also an added benefit.

so, the question i think is whether the surface area is adequate to be beneficial. the water volume to surface area ratio is certainly smaller than would be ideal.

maybe a viable alternative is re-designing the sump. i could take the right-most baffle off of the sump, moving it as far to the right as i can (while leaving room for an intake hose for a new external pump) and attaching it from the bottom. then i could turn that whole area into a fuge, and that would give me a lot more surface area of DSB. of course, i don't know what kind of havoc that would play on my established system. sigh.

FYI, the lighting upgrade that you suggested is forthcoming as soon as I get back to HD or Lowe's. i think it's time.



and on an unrelated note, Mark, has your B-M skimmer arrived yet??

Nope...no skimmer yet.

how can this be??? this is crazy.

I don't know. It's frustrating. I told Eddie, on a couple of occasions, that I was having issues with the skimmer pump when I got fed up with the stock skimmer and decided to place the order for the B-M skimmer over a month ago. He didn't even offer to send me a replacement skimmer pump. I asked him if he could get me the B-M skimmer quicker and he replied:

"Sorry, we had a few samples and had them sent out to a few customers after
we took pictures for the new catalog. once they come in i will have yours
shipped right away."

wow.

if it were me, i'd be inclined to cancel my order.

for what it's worth, i like the skimmer, but i don't think it's "irreplaceable" by any means. you may even be able to get as good a Bubble-Magus or better off of ebay or something, or maybe from nuocean? cadlights' Bubble-Magus is based off of the NAC3. I see nuocean sells the NAC6. or, there's this ebay ad for the new NAC3A.

Or, then there's the NAC7 cone skimmer that the kids on reef central are talking about.....

again, i don't know if they'll fit. maybe you could adjust the size of the acrylic sump chambers to make it work if it didn't.

if it makes you feel any better, i mean, i really like the skimmer. i still get good production out of it, despite everything i do wrong in my tank. so, once you get it, i think you'll be happy. i'd just be sick of dealing with it if i were you, though.

I have been inclined to cancel my order at least once every day for the past month. The bottom line is that want a skimmer in there that works. It's unfortunate that a skimmer that I bought with a package not so long ago already needs to be replaced...and that I am going to have to fork out the cash for that replacement. But, a good skimmer at the price he is offering is hard to pass on even if it's from a guy that sold me a skimmer that hasn't been reliable (man, I know that doesn't make sense). So, every time I think about cancelling, I think about what alternatives would be and come back to wanting the B-M skimmer. I guess I'm just crazy.

Thanks for your feedback on the B-M skimmer and the pics you've posted.

mkregs, have you seen the new cone skimmer from BM?

http://www.marinesolutionsinc.com/catalog/...oduct_info.html

tim mentioned it, and maybe it won't fit, but it's worth looking into!

Or you could stand this one next to your tank. It's external, I think

^^Awesome

Yep...I took a look at that one. It won't fit in the sump.


I am interested in this one though. I would love to see that baby in action.

I've been researching skimmers (always on the lookout for an equipment upgrade), and found the ATB "multiuse" skimmer. There's a big thread on RC about it. It's a cone skimmer with a 6" cone, sits about 22" high I think, and uses an eiehm (know I spelled that wrong) pump. It's excellent, but pricey at $650. You can also hang it off the back of a tank, with the pump in or out of the water They were $500 a few months ago, so asking nicely might get them to knock it down for you. ATB is cream of the crop when it comes to skimmers, and cones are the best skimmer design. Not sure if it would be necessary on a seahorse tank, though, or if it's more than you want to spend.

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/atb-multi-...r-now-shipping/

I'm thinking about upgrading myself... . I'll have to think really hard, though, because I'm not sure if it would be needed on such a small bioload.

Well, in light of our debate, I've gone to the master for input, and he has responded! The following is my email conversation with Bob Fenner, with his reply built into it, cut down to get to the most pertinent parts:

Subject: DSB size
My question for you this morning is about the effectiveness/utlity of what I am fairly confident is an undersized DSB. I've seen lots of related FAQs/etc. related to this issue (including the www.wetwebmedia.com/dsbsize.htm FAQ), but none that have directly addressed my issue. I am basically trying to decide whether to continue using my current DSB, whether I should try and expand it, or whether I should just remove it and use chaeto and a thin sandbed instead.
<Ok. I understand the proposition>
My water tests as: undetectable ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/phosphate, specific gravity of 1.024, pH of 8.2, temperature between 80-82F, calcium ~420ppm, alkalinity ~9dkh. I do not use any carbon/GFO/etc. I dose Brightwell Aquatics Reef Code Parts A + B and Seachem Magnesium, as needed. I use
only RO-DI 0 TDS water for daily top-offs and bi-weekly water changes. I run a Bubble-Magus Mini skimmer made specifically for the Cadlights tank 24/7.
<Sounds very nice indeed>
My display has about 60lbs of LR in it and what averages out to be a 1-1.5" sand bed (it gets deeper and shallower in some places, thanks to a certain mischievous jawfish).
<Ah yes>
The sump is divided by double baffles into 4 separate chambers. There are basically three equal-sized chambers, the first of which is divided in half to make four total chambers. Water drains from the display into one of the half-chambers through a filter sock and LR rubble, then into the other half-chamber (which contains the skimmer). Water flows from both of those half-chambers down and then up into the next chamber (which contains a refugium with a 5" DSB of caribsea fiji pink (not oolite, but fairly fine particles), 2-3 small pieces of LR, a ball of chaeto and a hermit crab), and then down into the last chamber (which contains a return pump). The actual surface area of the DSB is approximately 6"x16".
<Got you>
As far as any issues I've noticed, I have several patches of GHA and a small bit of cyano, but I am confident that this is likely the direct result of a lack of flow/dead spots/detritus build-up. I do what I can to manually remedy these issues, but there's only so much tweezers/turkey basters can do. I plan to add a Ecotech Vortech mp20 within the next month, and I think that will fix my issue.
<I do too. This/these are mighty fine products>
I haven't noticed any problems that I think are the result of the DSB, but again, I haven't had to answer to the added bioload from the corals I plan to add. So, what's the verdict? Is my DSB too small to make a difference, or is even an undersized DSB worthwhile?
<It is worthwhile>
Should I remove the DSB and just use chaeto and a thin sand bed?
<I would not. I'd leave it in place, perhaps add some finer ("oolithic") aragonite to it as it dissolves, loses volume>
Or, would it be worthwhile to expand my sump's refugium chamber to allow for a larger DSB (this option is not very attractive to me from a logistical standpoint, but I don't want to pretend like it's not a possibility, either)?
<Not necessary>
Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer!
Best regards,
Josh
<And you. Bob Fenner>

Mark, you'll be happy to hear I upgraded my fuge light to the one you suggested. And, after putting a 23w spiral 6500K CFL in there (decided the 100w replacement one would be too hot), I've already noticed, in just 4-5 days, a HUGE difference in growth speed for my Chaeto. I would say my chaeto ball is already 25% bigger than it was just a few days ago. flippin' awesome.

thanks for the suggestion! Here's the fixture i bought from Lowe's.


only issue i'm wondering about: the bulb is just sorta sitting out there with no cover over it. what happens if water splashes up on it? does it matter? would it be worth taking the current bulb out and substituting one of those "covered" CFL bulbs (you said that you used one that has a cover on it to make it look like a flood light)?

Hey Tim, on the issue of the CFL, I had that same reflector fixture, and went with the floodlight-like 6500k bulb. One advantage of the floodlight type bulb is it has a reflector built in, so you can ditch the reflector of the fixture. That lets the heat escape a bit better from the bulb

Glad to find your DSB will be effective!

Do you mean you'd be removing that entire metal hood? hadn't considered that, but it certainly does seem like it might help to dissipate heat?

The bell shaped reflector, yeah. You don't need it when using a floodlight bulb, only with a standard type bulb.

(also posted in Fish Forum, but figured I'd post here, too)

I've had a 4-5" lawnmower blenny in my system for about 2 months now.

I've never had any water parameter problems, and I have other healthy specimens in the tank (ocellaris clown, royal gramma, bluespotted jawfish). The other species have never, to my knowledge/observation, harassed or otherwise moved in on his territory. He was the first fish introduced into the tank, and he remains the largest. Although the other fish are more opportunistic when food goes into the tank, I have been erring on the side of overfeeding to help reduce competition for food.

He has never, to my observation, eaten any prepared foods (I feed several different varieties regularly), though I have frequently seen him eating algae off of the aquarium glass. This includes when he was the only fish in the tank. I occasionally have observed him eating algae off of rocks. However, there is a fair amount of overgrowth of green hair algae that he, nor anything else, will touch. I don't believe this is bryopsis, though i haven't entirely ruled out the possibility.

in any event, I'd say over the past 3-4 weeks, he's begun to noticeably shrink in girth, getting tell-tale signs of starvation (open mouth, listlessness, etc.). Over the past few days, I've noticed his stomach becoming increasingly concave.

I have attempted to feed the following, with no observed/differentiable results other than flat refusal:
1. hikari small marine pellets
2. tetra marine flakes
3. omega one brown seaweed (clipped to the glass, free floating in the tank, and broken up into small flakes)
4. green seaweed
5. ocean nutrition spirulina flakes
6. frozen mysis
7. frozen blood worms
8. cyclopeeze
9. tetra freeze-dried krill

i have also tried soaking these foods in Garlic Guard, but this hasn't made a difference, either. Food can float right past his face, and he doesn't even acknowledge it or look interested, and never has.

can anyone think of any other food or feeding technique that might be worth trying?

That doesnt sound good tim. Unfortunately if hes not interested in any of those foods chances are hes sick.

Glad to hear you are having positive results from the fixture. You really can't beat it for the price. I don't know what problem you might run into with the non-floodlight type CFL (maybe none as it sits several inches above the water surface). The floodlight type is nice though for the reasons stated by Becact, although I have found mine to run very cool without modification to the fixture.
Mark

I agree, heating is not really a big issue with CFL.

switching out the return pump for an eheim 1262. hurray for more flow!

be sure to post a review pls. I'm interested to know how it compares with the stock pump in terms of quietness and whether it produces less heat.

Hey, have you looked into Calcium Reactors at all? I'm want to look into this for the future.

Probably not worth it for a nano. You need to buy the reactor, CO2 tank, and a digital pH meter, and then dial in the unit. It's cost effective for a large tank, but not really for a nano, IMHO. It would be nice not to have to dose, though!

If money isn't really a huge issue, then I think it's worth it since it means more automation and less daily dosing.

Yes, but for less money, you could get twin peristaltic dosing pumps and automatically dose two part accurately. Way less chance of something going haywire (calcium reactors require careful adjustment and can go wrong quickly- on a nano that could be catastrophic). Also changing out the media is a chore compared to replacing the two part containers. Reactors are really better suited for very large tanks with many SPS colonies, where dosing enough two part to keep levels stable would not only be very costly, but change the salinity of the tank over time as well.

Actually, for probably the same amount of money as a Ca reactor setup, you could get twin peristaltic pumps, a reefkeeper to time them, and have some money left over .

Just a friendly suggestion; if you want to use a Ca reactor then by all means do so! Once you get them dialed in they do keep your tank nice and stable.

Hrmm....you have peaked my interest...I'll look into that.

I agree with Becact in opposing a calcium reactor for this size tank. And, there's one other argument against it that I want to add: besides providing little room for error, and the availability of 2-part dosing solutions as an easy alternative, calcium reactors take up way too much physical space in the vicinity of the aquarium. Unless you have a fish room on the other side of the wall from the aquarium, I really think that there are very real/definite scale limitations imposed by this tank/cabinet combination, if nothing else from an aesthetics standpoint.


In other news, my new Eheim 1262 arrived yesterday from Marine Depot. The thing looks fairly beastly, and it's surprisingly sturdy-feeling. No cheap plastics here. However, it doesn't come with suction cups -- what a pain -- for $170, you'd think they could spring for the suction cups. So, I'm off in search of some at the LFS tonight.

Tim, how 'bout you get that pump installed so you can give me your review...

I need to make a decision about what pump to get myself. Hopefully, the one you bought will be more quiet than the stock pump.

BTW...I decided to cancel my skimmer order with CAD yesterday.
Mark

+2 Ive actually ran one on a nano in the past. It was a hang on the back model. It was a pain to get everything tuned in correctly. I also had a kalkwasser reactor to work with the calcium reactor. You really need both for the system to be effective(I should say it was the most effective way to keep your ph stable while you replenished calcium). It did work but in hindsight i wish i wouldve dosed as it would have been far easier

no kidding! it's not for lack of trying! LFS didn't have any suction cups that would fit the eheim, but the guy working there says he has several of the same pump (he is a fan), and he just puts silicone mats (like from the cooking section at Target) underneath them, and that actually silences them even better than suction cups. so, i'll be working on getting that tonight.


bummer about the skimmer. that is off-the-wall weird. but, look at it this way: if you had actually received the bubble-magus, you probably would've gotten one of the ones whose pump has failed...? seriously though, now you have the opportunity to try and figure out a way to squeeze one of those B-M NAC7s in there!

Hey Tim, when I had my 90g going, I also used drawer liners under my Mag 7, and that worked just fine.

Well, some updates:

1) Chompers the algae blenny has succumb to anorexia(?) as of this morning. there was plenty of algae in the tank, but he barely grazed on any of it -- and i think i tried feeding him just about everything I could think of, soaked in garlic guard and everything, but he just didn't want to eat. when I saw him last night, he was pretty much catatonic already (which was sad to see on its own), but he was so skinny that it looked like his entire body had collapsed on itself (not just the stomach). upset to see him go, but he hasn't been looking very healthy for a long time now. i think we are done with algae blennies for a while. At least we can clean our glass off now, I guess.

2) durso drain makes me crazy with all its random gurgling/bubbling. I constantly have to cater to its every whim. WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME DRAIN? BLOOD?? more investigation into Hofer Gurgle Buster and Herbie drains = forthcoming. I can't take much more of this having to constantly tune the f'ing thing.

3) still haven't been able to install the eheim. looks like I need to figure out a way to adapt my 5/8" water outlet from the pump to the size of the return hose. trip to lowe's tonight, i guess. i'll probably install a ball valve at the same time.

4) the bubble-magus is really doing a much better job at controlling turbulence lately. very fine milky bubbles are producing a pretty nice-looking "head" to the works.

5) my filter socks aren't even lasting a week anymore between replacements. seems likely due to all the excess algae growth that's happened while trying to accomodate the algae blenny's eating habits. getting a handle on this algae is going to be a task, to be sure. i also found one bubble's worth of bubble algae on a rock. i'm just going to be leaving it alone for now and hope that it just goes away on its own. if it starts spreading, it might be emerald crab time.

Sorry to hear about the loss Tim... Hopefully you can figure out a way to quiet that overflow..

My Emerald crab is the bomb-nizzle! I highly recommend...

...I had a whole bunch of Bubble algae, but it is all gone now.

Sorry about this...I hate losing fish.


I'm looking forward to you getting this in so you can tell me what you think of it.




If you're not already doing it...when you go to clean them, turn them inside out then blast them with hot water in your laundry sink. I do that, then spray them heavily with vinegar and run them through the washing machine on a hot water cycle. As long as you have a couple/few socks in the rotation, it's not too bad to switch them out.

... another sleep-depriving night of gurgling, bubbling, and now, TRICKLING WATER. not a waterfall, exactly -- but a random trickle, as if someone has left a leaky faucet over the friggin' overflow.

i looked more into the Hofer Gurgle Buster and Herbie setups last night. HGB is convenient because it uses the existing drilled holes, whereas the Herbie, though apparently more likely to work, requires running a return line outside of the tank. not the worst thing in the world, but i'm concerned that i lose a lot of my eheim's GPH running the return through an elbow and then a T to get to the two loclines? it definitely seems like the more work-intensive and less-attractive solution for a tank with the two holes already drilled. What kind of opinions do we have out there about the advantages/disadvantages of the HGB versus the Herbie? Or something else?

I don't know enough about plumbing.

So, here's my plan:

1) do more research today (hurray for work not being that busy around the holidays!)

2) go to Lowe's, pick up correct size tubes for eheim, ball valve (assuming they don't have a gate valve) and necessary fittings, plus any other plumbing pieces I feel like I want to try out (7PM).

3) install eheim + valve with existing durso, see what happens (8PM).

4) assuming that alone doesn't fix the issue, i will at that time immediately begin panicking, likely making several rash/rushed decisions. i will almost certainly shut the pump off while forgetting to shut off the rest of the tank, thereby overflowing the skimmer cup. i will then get angry at myself for having done that and rip the durso/stand pipe right out of the tank, likely bringing the return hoses with the durso. After fooling with them for a while, it becomes clear to me that the hoses will then not fit back onto the T to which they connect because they are too slippery with algae. my insomnia-induced rage/intolerance will lead me to go Office Space on the Durso, at which point I will have to begin construction on the Hofer Gurgle Buster (9:30PM).

5) The HGB will predictably fit right together and look fine until I put it on, only to realize after messing with it for the better part of the next hour that there IS NO SWEET SPOT, and the sucking/gurgling will be worse than the Durso ever was (11PM).

6) I will quickly get tired of that (as I will have been working on this for well over 3 hours at that point, without having eaten dinner), rip the HGB apart, and just stick a plain piece of PVC to use as a straight standpipe. it will, miraculously, be silent. for about 2.5 hours (2AM).

7) At that point, the stand pipe will make sucking noises that, cutting through the silence and waking me from my sound yet uneasy sleep, could be likened to the screams of the earth splitting open to the slurping sludge-filled bowels of Hell. I will at that point get up, turn all the lights on, and investigate (as my wife opens her laptop to begin drafting a divorce filing). I will then do my best to quickly reconstruct the durso (what's left of it) and carefully place it on top of the open standpipe. it will go back to making the same slurping sounds as before, which I will then block out by putting earplugs in (3AM).

8) I will proceed to wake up at 5:30AM to apparently imagined/dreamed sounds of slurping, waterfalls and flooding. when i come to my senses, I realize that none of these sounds are actually happening, and try fruitlessly to get back to sleep. I rest uneasily, drifting in and out of consciousness, until my alarm goes off (7:15AM).

9) I will come home from work tomorrow night, go to Lowe's again, install the Herbie, and let it run. If it works, great. If it doesn't, I am going to put the tank in night mode (read "off").





Thanks Mark. I haven't tried vinegar cleaning the socks yet. I've mostly just been taking them out, turning them inside out, and throwing them in the laundry on "HOT." I don't have a laundry sink in my laundry room, so there isn't a whole lot I can do to "pre-wash" from that perspective, short of taking the sock outside to spray it down with the garden hose. wife would kill me if i rinsed fish stuff in the bath tub, shower or kitchen sink (only other indoor higher-pressure flow options).

Actual events as they unfolded last night:

1) picked up valve pieces/adapters from Lowe's (8PM).
2) finished measuring/cutting/installing plumbing for valves/eheim (10PM).
3) clean durso, tighten/secure return lines (10:30PM).
4) turn on eheim, water goes GURGLEGURGLESPLOOSHSPLOOSHBRUPBRUPBRUPKRSHHHHHHGURGLE both in my overflow and at my drain pipe to the sump (10:31PM).
5) notice that threaded connections on valve installation are all leaking a few tiny drops of water. tighten all with channel lock tool (nice). realize that i have almost completely "twisted" shut the 5/8" tube coming out of the eheim in the process of tightening the threaded connections to the valve. panic, turn pump off, wonder if broke it -- it continues to seemingly work, though. after tightening threaded connections, they still continue to drip (though not too terribly) anyway. that's when i think "maybe I should've used teflon tape on these threads...!" (11PM).
6) mess with opening/closing valve to control flow, mess with airline in durso cap to no avail. wisely acknowledge my decision not to buy additional plumbing parts so that I couldn't go Office Space on my durso as I had predicted.
7) messed with making small adjustments to various pieces of the plumbing; realize that it is no use, and it is earplugs time (1AM).

Pretty nice prediction by me yesterday morning, eh?


So... here are the two main plumbing noises I'm getting:
1) sucking/slurping from the stand pipe -- this is sometimes temporarily fixable by messing with the airline coming out of the durso cap, but that's almost always just a temporary fix.

2) "bursts" of water out of the drain hose into the sump. The filter sock helps to muffle the sound a little bit, but it seems like some backpressure builds up and then water just bursts through all at once (depending on the flow rate, this might happen once every 8-15 seconds), causing a substantially loud water crash/gurgle.

I've thought about widening the hole in the endcap to see if that helps, but my understanding is that higher flow rates would usually want a smaller hole, so I'm not sure. Maybe I should try partially covering the hole? What about using flexible hose for the standpipe portion of the durso?

Or, is it time to let go of the durso and install a herbie (with an external pipe running the return) or a hofer gurgle buster?

Also, are there any resources you guys know of that offer a reasonably comprehensive primer (i.e. not "Dr. Foster & Smith's 1 page intro to plumbing! EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW!!!!* (* - not everything you need to know)") on plumbing reef tanks? I feel like I might be making basic mistakes/have fundamental misunderstandings, but I don't have any good way of correcting those because I don't know what I should be looking for.

Hey Tim, you should always use teflon tape with threaded connections (except unions which have a rubber gasket), and purple primer with slip connections. Wherever you need parts to be removable, use a union rather than threaded PVC parts. Also, when tightening plastic threads, do not overtighten! A quarter to half turn beyond hand tight is fine.

I can't see your tank so don't know exactly what you are talking about on all fronts, but splashes from the drain into the sump may be easily cured by just putting the drain line exit under water.

Sounds like it's herbie time, though! Put the primary drain under the water level, and the safety drain over the water level (I mean in the sump), so you'll have an audible warning that your main drain needs adjusting. I'd also highly recommend a gate valve for the drain adjustment valve. I used a ball valve on my 90g, and it was pretty imprecise. I'd imagine on a small tank that small level of adjustment would be critical. You'll need to order the gate valve online, though, most likely.

Let me know if you have any questions about how to plumb the herbie drains!