Subscribed... please put me in line for one of these as a tester or final product.

Has anything came to fruition yet as far as a fully assembled prototype ?

this sounds way cool i will def be willing to be a beta tester for you all! ill keep an eye out on this!

Well when the code and schematics become available I'd like to buy a PCB, the parts if included and start to tweak it.

Yea.....

Did you bother reading my post before responding?

I explained how to do it without reflow. Using a technique that anyone can use, with any electronic-appropriate solder, of any thickness. Bridging is not a problem - bridging is done intentionally, then fixed.

You're talking about soldering like it's some kind of special, arcane skill that only you possess. It's not, and soldering SMD components is not outside the skill of anyone who would attempt this project in the first place.

And LOL at "shock and fire" from a low-voltage SMD processor. Seriously, you really pulled out all the stops on this one. What the hell are you thinking? I'm glad I quoted your shame so it will be enshrined here forever.

Well being a noob who has never soldered SMD,
but go to spark fun and see.
SMD doesn't seem that hard unless your trying the really difficult and small parts.
Yea it takes time and a good iron but it looks like anyone can do it.

Truth be told, neanderthalman, soldering smd will present more problems for the end user than through-hole. If a person's soldering experience is minimal, no matter how large the pitch might be, it's still more challenging than through-hole. Also, cone shaped tips, the ones you get from hobby, cheap irons, aren't really that smd friendly.

The only reason over the chip used on the Mega is the DIP configuration. Although SMD is possible, DIP is preferred for the average person who is going to build this deal. If you haven't done much work with an iron DIP components make life easier. The biggest problem with mounting SMD processors is heat. Too much and you have a dead chip. By the time you find out you have a dead chip there is no easy way to replace it. With DIP you can use all the heat you want to mount the socket and the chip goes in later. It is also easy to replace if you get into an issue that the chip goes bad. I think we all can agree that SMD can be done but for the average Joe that hasn't built much with an iron I believe DIP is a better choice.




Yes I have two completed working prototypes. The programmer has one and I have the other. Both are completly hand wired and took about a week each to do. It has been functioning for over a month and is doing well. Firewolf4 is completing the PCB design and hopefully I'll have some samples done with the final PCB done on my CNC.

You seem like a smart guy. When you are ready to spend a year of your life and your own money to develop something you are going to give away to a community you love then you'll have some respect from those of us doing the work. Yes SMD can be done by the average Joe but DIP can be done easier and more accurately by a person with less experience. You are welcome to take our design once complete and published and make a completely SMD version. I'd welcome it and would be happy to see the completed work.

Steve




+1

I fully agree that DIP is easier to solder. No real argument there. Only wanted to let you know that it was possible using common tools/supplies and how to do it, should you really need that SMD processor in the end.

I may be interested in a kit myself, so I'll be tagging along.




I already did it pal. Spent years developing an easy and cheap DIY automatic water changer. Gave the final design out to NR last spring.

You can drop the holier-than-thou attitude. I've been where you are now.

I have to agree,
I was soldering DIP stuff when i was 13.
Well I'll be looking forward to when the code comes out and many other riddles I don't know of that I could implement into my little temperature controller and timer arduino project.

Yes,
I did read your reply. And yes this is a low voltage application but that does not prevent shock hazard and/or fire. Ever throw a wrench across a car battery? If you leave it, you have an explosion. So a car battery is way too powerful? Short out a 9V battery with thin wire ( like standard lead thickness) Burn hazard, fire hazard.
What will this device be controlling? Low voltage components? I think not. Standard 120V typical 15-20A circuits
Many users won't have these on CGFI circuits and with line voltage being present, Yes, there is even the potential of death.
I personally have no use for your seething distain and sanctimonium. I dont care if you laid out the IBM 4004 on a breadboard. The AVERAGE builder of this does not have that high of a level of competancy.

...and I don't care for your holier-than-thou elitism and dismissive attitude.

Car batteries explode from a combination of hydrogen production and extremely high short circuit current potential. It's a very different case than a tiny lead getting burned off an SMD component. A pin of that size will be vaporized before it becomes a genuine hazard. There's a reason that low-power, low-voltage circuits are exempt from the code - they simply do not have the reasonable potential for hazard. Pointing out a ridiculous situation that could create a hazard only points out the ridiculousness of the point you're making. If you have to try in order to make it dangerous - then it isn't really dangerous, now is it?

That, and you're implying that you'd have 120v on SMD pins, which is wholly incorrect. You'd be controlling all of your 120V via relays, optocouplers, or triacs, effectively isolating it from the SMD component. They'd all still be DIP.

You've been spouting bullshiat since you first replied, and I'm sorry, but I'm calling you out on it. These are the facts, none of your inflated ego and nonsense. Had you replied with "yeah, it can be done - but I think we're better off with the DIP to make it easier", you would have been both correct, and polite. Instead, you came out with the most dismissive, insulting, and egotistical response you could have possibly come up with. Biatching about reflow and specific thicknesses of eutectic solder? WTF dude.

I think you're doing great work with this controller - but NR doesn't need the attitude - alright?

Sigh, the only I see certainly doesn't come from either one of the developers. At the worst case scenario, soldering smd (voltage regulators, MCUs various ICs, etc) can potentially short VDD and GND with a resistance of say 0.5ohms. At 3.3V, you're already looking at 6.6A and 10A at 5V. Now, let's say your wall adapter can't handle the current load, it can blow and potentially create a fire hazard.

Seriously, these guys are doing a good thing. Let's try to leave all personal things outside the thread. I, for one, can't wait to have access to the hardware and try my hand at open-source software develepment ^^.

Ugh - do you ever wonder why a lot of us don't help out as much anymore? It's this exact sort of thing.

I offered a bit of information that they clearly didn't have. How to solder SMD components at home. Safely. The response? I got spit in the face for my trouble, and this Firewolf character came out with the attitude that he was the only person in the world who knew a damn thing about electricity. There were many ways to handle it, but he was downright rude, and I'm calling him out on it.

In the case you've creatively fabricated mabviper, you'll vaporize the little 0.5ohm bridge long before you overheat the power supply. You've also completely ignored the internal resistance of the power supply in your calculation. As I've already said:



This is why circuits powered from a class II transformer, less than 30V and 100VA, are not covered by electrical codes in most jurisdictions - they have insufficient capacity to present a danger to the public. This is precisely the situation on the processor (it has no 120V on it, FYI).

I don't really want to get into arguments over design details of the project. This is why I choose to leave the entire project closed until it was complete, as it would just go faster. I believe Neanderthalman is correct on his original post that SMD is possible by the home user and he also understands the reason we choose through hole specifically for this project. In a traditional sense he is also correct that 120v should not come into contact with the controller via the relays because of the isolation with the octocouplers. However, what I believe Firewolf was trying to explain is the potential for firehazard and shock via high voltage and high amps through the tank. Because many people choose not to use GFCI or grounding on their power systems for aquariums the potential for firehazard or shock via a short in a High voltage device in the tank is not only possible but has happened. A broken glass heater, a cut line on a powerhead, potting that is compromised in pumps exposing the leads, or even a light falling into the tank all have the potential to complete a circuit to the controller via the probes in the tank creating a shock or firehazard to the end user via the controller exposing all pins on the processor to 120v. This is one reason pool and fountain controllers are subjected to ETL or UL testing. The same dangers posed to swimmers or users of fountains are identical to the users of aquarium related products. Sadly simple devices required of swimming pools to ensure safety, like GFCI and proper grounding, are not required of aquariums. I'm not saying ETL or UL listing is required for aquarium products (as we know many are not) but it is important to plan for the safety of all using the product well in advance. There currently is a plan in place to submitt this product for ETL certification, which to my knowledge should be one of the first controller products to do this.

If I have been "holier-than-thou" you have my apology, it is important that all constructive dialog is explored so creative juices continue to flow and everyone is happy with the end product and safety is first on our minds.

Steve

Let them argue. Its your design, do what you like. We are all impressed by your work.

I have to agree with Steve, it's not that I'm calling all home builders of this incompetent. On the contrary, I believe many could put 9001 and 9006 soldering standards to shame. But as knowing manufacturing for end users and PCB design therein, I have to look at it from the point of safety first, simplicity second. I've interviewed enough technicians over the years to never believe that everyone can solder.
So I believe this could be made with SMD's, definitely. Do I expect to hear of multiple problems due to SMD? I think that goes without saying. So for now, lets get the unit functioning with through hole and then we can start looking at an SMD version.
I really don't feel I have to comment in regards to the "holier - than- thou" attitude aside from saying I have my own personal reasons leading my decisions.

Can't wait to see the end product lol !

Any update ?

No updates right now. Firewolf is working on the final PCB layout and I'm getting the CNC tweaked to mill the boards. I do have some artwork for the logo design. Let me know what you think.

Ha! I love it! Especially being a diver.

Brandon

Nice.

That's an awesome logo bro... I LIKE IT!!!

Hah I dig the logo. It's good to see that this project is beginning to come full circle finally!

Looking forward to seeing this in action. I had my own abortive attempt at this project awhile ago which I never did get around to finishing: http://www.opencoral.com/

And hello everyone, new member on Nano-Reef. My 90gallon of course does not qualify as a nano

WELCOME...... ........ But you can post your tank in the Large Reef Tank section!!


BTW....... Any updates?? It's been a while!

I just found my way back to this forum after a few years because of this topic.
I really hope this project keeps going forward. It sounds like it has huge potential.

I'm one of those soldering noobs...never had a reason to touch a soldering iron especially since most electronic products are practically disposable now.

Are those "cold" soldering irons okay for this type of work?

Invest in a real soldering iron. Those cold heat irons work for really small stuff, but once you are starting to put something like this together, you want something a little more appropriate.

Well, hopefully it won't be too much longer, I'd deffinitely buy one.

As for soldering irons, the cheap radio shack ones can get you by for a few small projects, at least, but in the past, some models got a bit too hot, so you had to be careful about how long you held the iron to the solder point.

Sorry guys the PCB design is taking a bit longer than I expected. The space we have to work with in the box and the desire to keep the project buildable via true DIY (ie toner transfer, chemical etching at home) has slowed us a bit. With the redesign of the processer and space issues associated with the box and dip construction we have had our work cut out for us. We are working on it and it will get done soon.

Like Evil said, cold solder is really not a good idea. That product makes a great commercial but doesn't transfer well to PCB work. A standard cheap 40watt Iron from radio shack should work OK, and I hope to build one in the assembly video using one to show it can be done. Every IC is socketed so overheating should not be a factor when building it. We are using 10mil traces and 12mil spacing so solder points shouldn't be so close that soldering is an issue. I use a variable heat Weller and love it but would never expect people to buy one just for this project.

Anyway, stay tuned it IS coming, LOL.

Steve

The Schematics have been proven out and the PCB design can finally head towards completion.

If people can afford it ($40-60 range) I would highly recommend a solder iron with a variable temp and it's own dedicated controller/stand. The Weller WTC setup or something similar will work perfectly for this project.

Ok now I'm confused. Is this something we're going to have to totally build ourselves? I was under the impression that I basically picked the components I wanted and then programmed it however I wanted. Being a CS major that would be perfect for me... not sure how well I would do soldering every component onto the boards...

Awesome! Been waiting patiently. Will we be able to etch the PCB ourselves?

for those people who cant burn the boot loader, will you be shipping to the UK?

My understanding, from reading the thread, is that HCSCEO has already carefully picked all the components (except probes/sensors?) and written all the software, and that to keep the price down, will sell us the components, and source code for the software (at about cost) but that we have to assemble the components, and that it will involve some soldering. HOWEVER, since it is open source, and based on the Arduino controller, you can easily modify it any way you like, both in hardware, and especially in software.

I too am a mere software engineer, with very limited experience soldering, but I gather that HCSCEO made a design decision that would make the thing bulkier, but easier for guys like us to solder. He even took some criticism from a few of the veteran flux-sniffers who disagreed with his choice to coddle weenies like us. He can't please all of the people all of the time, but I think most of the people (including me) are going to be thrilled. After all of his effort, I'm willing to do a little homework, practice a little soldering, and buy the good quality soldering iron that I probably should have bought years ago. Then I'll have a controller that I can use my software skills to customize, for under $100. Woo hoo!

I just hear all this talk about etching the board and all. I'd totally be down if everything were shipped to me in a box and said "Solder this thing in this slot, then this in that, then that in this." I wouldn't want this to be so DIY that I would need more than a basic set of instructions on where to soldering something in order to complete...

That's the way the kits seem to be shaping up. The etching of a pcb is a custom option if you want to buy all the parts yourself.

Ok, I can deal with having to solder components to a board but I dont know how much more I'd be able to do just due to lack of experience/knowledge. I'll have to see how everything pans out and make a final decision when all is said and done.

We will see but I am pretty much in the same boat as you. I think most novice builders like us will do just fine. I just dont have the time to learn to code these guys or draw up wiring layout, at least for the main controller. I do hope to add some of my own stuff and code it into the main unit.

Guys and gals,
This is why I wanted to push for through hole design. Knowing the dedication to detail that Steve has, I'm pretty sure that this will be similar to building a plastic model "Insert part 2R into the PCB at the R2 location".
You will have to be able to identify basic components and know color codes, polarities, Pin 1 on an IC, etc. but it'll be straight forward.

To add to this topic, the cold heat irons are resistive heaters, which means they apply a fair amount of current to the "bridge" to be soldered. If you're connecting two wires, this isn't a problem, but when you start doing that to semiconductors, any small slip across pins and you've likely blown something up.

The short of it: Coldheat does not mix with any sensitive electronics (microcontrollers, semiconductors, LEDs, etc)



I haven't used my lead former in eons

Sorry guys I've been busy at work and haven't looked at the thread in several days. To answer a few questions. Like Evil said, the idea is that you will buy a box of parts from us and build it yourself. My idea is to figure out a way on our website to put builders with people who might not have the skills to build it but still want it. I'll put together a video posted on youtube that will walk you through the entire build process and some detailed instructions will be included in the box. Finally on our website you will be able to download the schems, current software or code, digikey part list, and PDF of the PCB for toner transfer and etching yourself if you want to go that route. The idea is that this is can be a DIY project from the ground up or DIY from a kit. Either way you will be responsible for the success of the project you build. There will be other items for sale including probes which we should have the best price around on.

To be honest, right now I'm exhausted and am taking a little break while firewolf completes the PCB. In the last month my wife and I both got strep which knocked us out flat on our backs for four days each and now three of my four kids have pneumonia. My oldest is 6 so that pretty much tells you how much sleep I have had. With any luck we won't add H1N1 on top of the pneumonia as the situation would get life threatening for them quickly.

I don't want to hear your weak excuses!!!!!


kidding - get well man. being sick this time of year really sucks.

THanks for the response... This is exactly what I was expecting. I hope you feel better.

As for the website.... I think a website that is similar to nerdkits.com would be beneficial. It is exactly the same concept. You could buy all the parts and put together the kit yourself, or you could purchase the kit from them and put it together. If you purchase from them, you get access to their forums where you get support and interact with others that purchased the kit... it is forum based. The interaction in itself is what makes it worth buying the kit from them. They have video tutorials as well as PDF instructions. I LOVE MY NERDKIT! lol

Anyways... if you need help with any of that stuff (forums, video tutorials, etc... ) let me know. I work from home so I have all the time in the world.

Any new pics? Can we see one of the test ones up and running?

Also, do you think you will stick with that keypad?
I know that these ones are already available as they were used previously by your company.
I'm wondering if there is any interest down the road to make something a little more streamlined. I'm sure most of the setup can be done with a lot less (6 ??) buttons. Setup is usually a one time thing with most people leaving it on the main screen. Is real estate of the internal components the issue?

Don't worry about the PCB, the project, etc. You take care of your family and yourself. We'll all still be here.
I'll keep plugging away on the layouts and emailing you updates.

You and your family are in our prayers,

Russ

Get well soon!

Hope you feel better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AAnnOR_2kM

This thread caught my eye from RC and read thru all 15 pages so far. Keep up the good work and get better.

I some experience in PCB Design and Packaging but that was years ago. I got caught up in the Nixie clock and learned all over to etch my own boards at home and to solder all over again. Even draw schematics on Eagle, have put together several projects, Nixie Clocks - but lack the knowledge to "troubleshoot" them. Hopefully if we get (me) stuck we'll have some kind of help.

If you need a tester that has never used or owned a Controller, that's me.

I'm not a nano reefer - have a 80gal custom, total volume 120gals

Get better soon! I agree family first, we'll all be here waiting when you get back