There was a post that had a guy from RC that had 4-5 diy vortechs in his tank. I think they were orange.
I am really interested in trying something out but need to find out a few things. If anyone has that think from RC that would be awesome!
-Dave
Full Version: DIY Vortech
Not from RC but here is a link to someone trying to create one here on NR.
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123668
Here is the thread over on that other site
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...hreadid=1560455
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123668
Here is the thread over on that other site
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...hreadid=1560455
Ive seen that one but the guy is MIA.
There was a recent one off of RC.
-Dave
I would love to make 3-4 small pumps and build a controller to make them all random. I just need a little direction.
thanks adam!
There was a recent one off of RC.
-Dave
I would love to make 3-4 small pumps and build a controller to make them all random. I just need a little direction.
thanks adam!
I wasn't sure if that was the one you were talking about or not. It looks like the guy on RC never really provided feedback on how he created them.
I'll post anything else I find.
I'll post anything else I find.
Its magnet drive and controlled with a potentiometer . Pretty simple concept. I bet you can figure it out.
Prop - What type of motor would you recommend?
http://www.myatomic.com/catalog/viewsku?sku=CSECMS4600
What about this one?
http://www.myatomic.com/catalog/viewsku?sku=CSECMS4600
What about this one?
Any DC motor for RC cars or Heli's should work fine and give you variable speed with a potentiometer. You could also use PWM to control speed from a microprocessor like the Arduino and use that as the basis for programming different wave functions. That one seems really expensive to me. By the time you R&D you probably could afford the new MP10 coming out. Look for something more in the price range of $15 - $20.
Steve
Steve
hcs - Thanks man. I have a good friend that is a programmer and I am sure he could write something up to control this guy. I just need to work on the pump itself.
Any one that owns a vortech. The seal that is between the tank and motor, is this a neoprene or a material like it? If anyone has any pictures that would be even better.
-Dave
What I am aiming for ( as long as my buddy can help ) is to have 4 smaller pump that are hooked to one controller that have them going 80-20-20-20% then 20-80-20-20% and so on.
Any one that owns a vortech. The seal that is between the tank and motor, is this a neoprene or a material like it? If anyone has any pictures that would be even better.
-Dave
What I am aiming for ( as long as my buddy can help ) is to have 4 smaller pump that are hooked to one controller that have them going 80-20-20-20% then 20-80-20-20% and so on.
Dave - the seal that is between the motor and the tank is not neoprene. It is more like rubber gasket material. I can take a picture if you want but it might not give a good feel for what it is like.
Adam - That would rock. Is it like a bulkhead seal?
-D
-D
DaveFason, that motor you linked to will need a special controller to run. It's a sensorless brushless motor. You can't just put 12v to it and expect it to work. It's also way too big for what you are looking to do.
Why are you worrying about a seal? There is no seal on the front of the motor, just a pad to cushion the front face. You realize that the motor and the rotor are magnetically coupled through the glass right?
Why are you worrying about a seal? There is no seal on the front of the motor, just a pad to cushion the front face. You realize that the motor and the rotor are magnetically coupled through the glass right?
evilc - Sorry I didnt mean seal!
Ok after reading about the motor I understand the 12v wont just work.
Yes I understand the two are coupled that way.
Do you have any suggestions about a motor?
Ok after reading about the motor I understand the 12v wont just work.
Yes I understand the two are coupled that way.
Do you have any suggestions about a motor?
Depends on what you want to spend. There are some cheap 400 size brushless motor and speed control combos out of China that will work. You just have to make sure they are bearing supported on each end of the shaft. There are some that are bushing/sleeve bearing. Some of the more expensive US and European setups will live longer, but costs jumps quite a bit.
Brushless will be key because of the low rpm performance. They are much much smoother at low rpm than a typical brushed motor. They typically will tollerate much higher voltage and rpms too. You won't need a little screamer. If you run it at 12v, you will want something with as low of an rpm per volt rating as possible. To match the Vortechs 3000rpm, you need a 250rpm/v motor. You can find outrunners typically in lower rpm ranges than inrunners.
You can buy higher rpm motors, but you will just have to throttle them back more.
Brushless will be key because of the low rpm performance. They are much much smoother at low rpm than a typical brushed motor. They typically will tollerate much higher voltage and rpms too. You won't need a little screamer. If you run it at 12v, you will want something with as low of an rpm per volt rating as possible. To match the Vortechs 3000rpm, you need a 250rpm/v motor. You can find outrunners typically in lower rpm ranges than inrunners.
You can buy higher rpm motors, but you will just have to throttle them back more.
evil - Thanks for the great info. I just talked to my buddy and he could easily program something for me so that the pumps would all work together. I just need to pick a motor and go from there.
So I'm looking at a motor that will use 12v DC and use a wall wart. Any thoughts. I would rather a smaller motor and only want around 500-1400 gph.
-Dave
Again thanks for all the help guys!
So I'm looking at a motor that will use 12v DC and use a wall wart. Any thoughts. I would rather a smaller motor and only want around 500-1400 gph.
-Dave
Again thanks for all the help guys!
A lot of that you are going to have to play by ear/eye. The rpm of the motor, and the pitch and diameter of the prop will determine how much flow you will have.
Most brushless systems will run at 12v. You need to watch the rating for the speed control. That will be the biggest limiting factor. You may want to even think about running it at a lower voltage as it will be easier to get lower rpms, and the heat will be reduced.
Most brushless systems will run at 12v. You need to watch the rating for the speed control. That will be the biggest limiting factor. You may want to even think about running it at a lower voltage as it will be easier to get lower rpms, and the heat will be reduced.
well after looking around its hard to find a low RPM motor that small.
Ive found a few motors but I am not sure if they will work as well...
https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/se...tId=164786&
Whacha think about that one evil.
After talking to my friend we are going to try and make a controller for the pumps with an OLED screen.
-Dave
Ive found a few motors but I am not sure if they will work as well...
https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/se...tId=164786&
Whacha think about that one evil.
After talking to my friend we are going to try and make a controller for the pumps with an OLED screen.
-Dave
Too slow
Plus, being a DC brushed motor, they don't do as well at low rpm. They tend to cog once they get down below a certain rpm. Brushless is much smoother.
You don't have to run it at 12v. A motor that is rated at 600Kvm (600 rpm/volt) will generate a max rpm of 7200rpm at 12v. At 5v, you are down to 3000rpm. This will allow you to control your speed a lot better because you are working with a much larger window of adjustment instead of throttling back to get you max rpm down, and then only getting less than half of your usable throttle resolution. 5v power supplies are pretty easy to find and dirt cheap, like this.
Plus, being a DC brushed motor, they don't do as well at low rpm. They tend to cog once they get down below a certain rpm. Brushless is much smoother.
You don't have to run it at 12v. A motor that is rated at 600Kvm (600 rpm/volt) will generate a max rpm of 7200rpm at 12v. At 5v, you are down to 3000rpm. This will allow you to control your speed a lot better because you are working with a much larger window of adjustment instead of throttling back to get you max rpm down, and then only getting less than half of your usable throttle resolution. 5v power supplies are pretty easy to find and dirt cheap, like this.
I still think cheap heli motor (brushless) and brushless speed controller. Can probably find these from a chinese knockoff vendor for next to nothing.
I thought Dave Fason was a Vortech Sales Rep, no?
edit: or ecotech marine, if you want to get technical.
edit: or ecotech marine, if you want to get technical.
QUOTE (Haagenize @ Apr 2 2009, 09:27 PM) 
haha not me!
Just an average Joe!
-Dave
Just an average Joe!
-Dave
Would something like this work?
http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/HA...ORS-HACKER.html
Or is it to high in RPM?
My biggest thing is finding a motor that would go down that low
-D
http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/HA...ORS-HACKER.html
Or is it to high in RPM?
My biggest thing is finding a motor that would go down that low
-D
I can find motors slow enough, but they all seem to be pricey. Run the motor at lower voltages to get more resolution out of the setup.
i don't think this is one of the things we can DIY. well good luck, hopefully this thread goes somewhere and does not die. 
Okay, maybe I'm missing something here... aren't the Vortechs magnetically coupled? Why do you need a motor to do this, I thought that the outside part would have a rotating magnetic field in the coils (stator) while the wet side in the tank has a magnetic propeller (rotor)?
Why wouldn't you run AC at a variable frequency in a coil outside the tank? The frequency determines the speed of rotation, right? I assumed this was how VorTechs worked?
Why wouldn't you run AC at a variable frequency in a coil outside the tank? The frequency determines the speed of rotation, right? I assumed this was how VorTechs worked?
It would be nice, but vortech took the easy way out and went with a motor instead. I'm into electronics and I looked into it, so far I've only built the propeller side out of a plastic bearing, burned out hair dryer, diametric magnet, and a water bottle.
Aha. So there is room for improvement over the VorTech! I KNEW IT! 
So what's your plan then, isidro0? Are you going the VorTech route or the electronic route? I can't see it being that difficult... but then, I've only recently gotten into electronics, so what do I know?
So what's your plan then, isidro0? Are you going the VorTech route or the electronic route? I can't see it being that difficult... but then, I've only recently gotten into electronics, so what do I know?
Just so you know, I run brushless motors on my electric airplanes and they tend to make a high pitched whine when they run, no matter the speed, especially the Hackers (great motor btw). Fine for when the plane is a couple hundred feet away but may cause madness in your living room 24/7.
My big motor thats going in a plane the size of the one on my avatar is quieter and far more powerful, but its huge for a tank and more expensive than a Vortech mp40.
Unless you go cheap China stuff, expect to spend at least around 100 spot on a small brushless electric/esc setup.
My big motor thats going in a plane the size of the one on my avatar is quieter and far more powerful, but its huge for a tank and more expensive than a Vortech mp40.
Unless you go cheap China stuff, expect to spend at least around 100 spot on a small brushless electric/esc setup.
noise is a concern for me, both for outside and inside the tank. for the propeller side, I went with hair blowdryer propeller because it could move a lot of water at really slow speed, reducing the noise. As for the motor side, I don't think hobby motors can run nonstop for years? If I buy a motor, it would be a industrial stepper motor, they're around $30 on ebay, they have high torque, long life, and can easily be microcontrolled.
what blueAbyss is talking about is making a brushless motor from scratch. most motors have permanent magnets in the center, and coils(electro-magnets) around it. What would be nice, build a motor with the coils on the outside of the fish tank, and the permanent magnet with a pump on the inside. The best example is a motorless magnetic stirrer used in chemical mixing.
my plan was to run my pump with a heady duty brushless AC fan motor, to see how my design holds up. If its worth it, maybe go motorless?
what blueAbyss is talking about is making a brushless motor from scratch. most motors have permanent magnets in the center, and coils(electro-magnets) around it. What would be nice, build a motor with the coils on the outside of the fish tank, and the permanent magnet with a pump on the inside. The best example is a motorless magnetic stirrer used in chemical mixing.
my plan was to run my pump with a heady duty brushless AC fan motor, to see how my design holds up. If its worth it, maybe go motorless?
this looks like it's going to be one fun project!
remember to take into account vibration...depending on the freqnecy it could slowly damage your tank or drive your inhabitants crazy
You may want to avoid stepper motors isidro0... they tend to be loud (and not very smooth running) also. If you were going to use a motor, why not use one that's geared down?
The main advantage to going 'motorless' (well not really) would be simplicity and energy savings. Less moving parts, and a more efficient setup. HOWEVER... and this is a big one... to build something like this DIY is a pretty big undertaking. You need to design and build a coil side (dry side) and a propeller side (wet side), make sure they work properly together, and then build a controller for the coil (you need a variable frequency, probably microcontroller based).
Not impossible though, a friend and I have been discussing this in some depth, and I will be having a chat with my cousin (an engineer) probably later this month about it. My idea is to use a VERY large propeller (4") at a very low speed. I don't know if this can be done the way I envision it, we'll see what the consensus is.
The main advantage to going 'motorless' (well not really) would be simplicity and energy savings. Less moving parts, and a more efficient setup. HOWEVER... and this is a big one... to build something like this DIY is a pretty big undertaking. You need to design and build a coil side (dry side) and a propeller side (wet side), make sure they work properly together, and then build a controller for the coil (you need a variable frequency, probably microcontroller based).
Not impossible though, a friend and I have been discussing this in some depth, and I will be having a chat with my cousin (an engineer) probably later this month about it. My idea is to use a VERY large propeller (4") at a very low speed. I don't know if this can be done the way I envision it, we'll see what the consensus is.
2nd the stepper motor not being the best idea. When run from a simple square wave controller they are downright loud (think floppy drive seeking), and even more sophisticated half/quarter/sine drives can't quiet them down near to brushless motor levels. Super easy to control the speed from anywhere between gentle current to tear your tank apart tidal waves, but yeah just loud.
Don't know if anyone has posted this but here is the link for the Vortech patent.
Bracketless magnetic pump
Just for reference.
Bracketless magnetic pump
Just for reference.
those look like snail/crab murderers to me ( the RC thread that was posted )
Well if you get a development physically,
I'll be more than happy to code since I've already got a PWM code for one pump(Uhh sorta dead water now for driving a koralia) for arduino.
I could easily make it for more than one pump,
add a touchscreen, use a freeduino, 2 16X2 LCDs and your set for the controller.
I could do a full "unit" for maybe $60 or so,
could control 4 pumps, depending on the DC power supply.
Add some delays that all use one variable,
add some more pumps and make it so that all the parameters interdependently.
to a point, can be easily changed.
Currently you have do monkeying around to get it to work satisfactory depending on your theoretical tank size.
Excuse how "dirty" the code is,
I haven't worked on it since I don't have a pump to drive it with
If you get somewhere with it,
provided that there is hope I can
buy one if it becomes a polished/useful DIY, I'll happily expand on this simple code and
make something that would be very usable.
For anybody with an arduino,
if you want to try it just use a LED and a resistor on pin 9.
I'll be more than happy to code since I've already got a PWM code for one pump(Uhh sorta dead water now for driving a koralia) for arduino.
I could easily make it for more than one pump,
add a touchscreen, use a freeduino, 2 16X2 LCDs and your set for the controller.
I could do a full "unit" for maybe $60 or so,
could control 4 pumps, depending on the DC power supply.
Add some delays that all use one variable,
add some more pumps and make it so that all the parameters interdependently.
to a point, can be easily changed.
Currently you have do monkeying around to get it to work satisfactory depending on your theoretical tank size.
Excuse how "dirty" the code is,
I haven't worked on it since I don't have a pump to drive it with
If you get somewhere with it,
provided that there is hope I can
buy one if it becomes a polished/useful DIY, I'll happily expand on this simple code and
make something that would be very usable.
For anybody with an arduino,
if you want to try it just use a LED and a resistor on pin 9.
QUOTE
int MasterPump = 9; Master pump Pin
int pump_slow_transition = 3; //how quickly the pump will slow down with it's allocated slowdown time
int onspeed= 5; //5 default makes pump hit destination PWM faster or slower,
//if set incorrectly makes jerky transition or incomplete/short rev
int pump_slowdown_time = 5; //time for the pump to slowdown from max to idle
int maximum_power = 230; //maximum PWM duty cycle (95%)
void setup() {
// nothing happens in setup
}
void loop() {
Serial.begin(9600); // opens serial port, sets data rate to 9600 bps, for debugging and general info
delay(2000); // pump off/idle duty cycle time
// rev from minimum to maximum PWM
for(int fadeValue = 1.5 ; fadeValue <= maximum_power; fadeValue +=5) {
// sets the value (range from idle to user set maximum PWM duty cycle):
analogWrite(MasterPump, fadeValue);
//set time for pump being on
delay(100);
}
// Rev down from maximum to set minimum PWM
for(int fadeValue = maximum_power ; fadeValue >= 5; fadeValue -=1*pump_slow_transition) {
analogWrite(MasterPump, fadeValue);
// wait for pump_slowdown_time in milliseconds until revdown is done.
delay(pump_slowdown_time);
}
}
int pump_slow_transition = 3; //how quickly the pump will slow down with it's allocated slowdown time
int onspeed= 5; //5 default makes pump hit destination PWM faster or slower,
//if set incorrectly makes jerky transition or incomplete/short rev
int pump_slowdown_time = 5; //time for the pump to slowdown from max to idle
int maximum_power = 230; //maximum PWM duty cycle (95%)
void setup() {
// nothing happens in setup
}
void loop() {
Serial.begin(9600); // opens serial port, sets data rate to 9600 bps, for debugging and general info
delay(2000); // pump off/idle duty cycle time
// rev from minimum to maximum PWM
for(int fadeValue = 1.5 ; fadeValue <= maximum_power; fadeValue +=5) {
// sets the value (range from idle to user set maximum PWM duty cycle):
analogWrite(MasterPump, fadeValue);
//set time for pump being on
delay(100);
}
// Rev down from maximum to set minimum PWM
for(int fadeValue = maximum_power ; fadeValue >= 5; fadeValue -=1*pump_slow_transition) {
analogWrite(MasterPump, fadeValue);
// wait for pump_slowdown_time in milliseconds until revdown is done.
delay(pump_slowdown_time);
}
}
I can sell you this outrunner with the correct speed controller. Runs off 12 cell lithium poly.
I'm an RC Heli guy, here is pretty much the best site for cheap brushless out/inrunners. http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/u...mp;ParentCat=59
Does anybody know if you can run ESC speed controller at low speeds?
QUOTE (isidro0 @ Oct 3 2009, 11:01 AM)
Does anybody know if you can run ESC speed controller at low speeds?
I dont see why not. How low? 1000kv on one Lipo cell is not un-heard of, I cant imagine you need slower than that.
I would like to see people's solution to controllers. I am wondering if it is easier to program the speed controller your self or try and output an RC servo signal and get a cheap brushless esc.
I do think this project is possible in a variety of ways.
I'd say it's much easier and cheaper to just drive the ESC than build your own circuit to drive the motor.
QUOTE (evilc66 @ Oct 3 2009, 09:07 PM)
I'd say it's much easier and cheaper to just drive the ESC than build your own circuit to drive the motor.
Seems that way to me too, I havent seen any reef controllers with this function yet. I have seen plenty of arduino projects that have done both.
The programing is beyond me though.
Cheap speed controls and brushless motors should open up alot of DIY projects if the programing is as easy as it is starting to seem.
Arduinos make hardware interfacing so easy now. They are a lot of fun to play with.
QUOTE (isidro0 @ Oct 3 2009, 10:01 AM)
Does anybody know if you can run ESC speed controller at low speeds?
Depends on the ESC. The cheaper ones tend to jump up in RPM's pretty quickly.
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